Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Pre-release)

I think Luke is driven into brooding isolation by the burden of wanting to help but not knowing how, or being unable to. He wanted to be the Jedi everybody saw in him, but without all the training the Jedi of old had, he realised there were just too many question marks. I know, it's the old "reluctant hero" trope, but I feel in Luke's case, it might be justified.
In a sense, he got lucky in the OT, and now he's afraid he can't live up to everybody's expectations. And with someone or something wiping out his fledgling academy, it must have devastated him.
I know I'd be all "screw you guzs, I'm going home."

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CutThumb said:

Its really not that difficult to understand Lukes decision to isolate himself and why he feels the path of the Jedi in relation to the Skywalkers is a failed choice. Just consider where he is now in relation to his families past and future because really, ever since his father was inducted into the Jedi order, there really hasn't been much to be thankful for.
Consider the impact that the discovery that your actual Father was the most hated and deeply despised monster in the Galaxy had on him. But even before then being lied to by your most trusted teachers, Ben and Yoda, so you walk blindly into it, has got to hurt a great deal more ( almost as much as getting your hand cut off) and then learning it was mostly their failure with Anakin that led to the "problem" in the first place isn't going to help.
And then, to make matters worse,he was rendered absolutely helpless by the Emperors lighting Force powers and was only just saved by his Dads intervention, despite making the right choice by rejecting the Darkside.So as an organization for benefit of the galaxy and Force users in general , one could say, from a certain point of view, that the Jedi order and their rather toothless and banal teachings and prophecies properly suck.
But Luke then suffers what must have been an even more terrible blow and bitter lesson. By following the exact same path,structure and teachings of the old Jedi he then manages to replicate and suffer their same tragedy and failure. To loose it all AGAIN,both his academy and his nephew, the son of his best friend and sister to the temptations of the Darkside and he ,Luke Skywalker, hero of the Republic and the Last Jedi, doesn't SEE IT coming.
At this stage in his life thats a crushing defeat.No wonder he walks away from all of it .
And thats why I don't have any problem at all believing in Luke taking the decision to isolate himself as he has. We've still no real information about whats really happened between ROTJ and TFA and I do think the ambiguity is being talked up in order to generate more interest in the story, but I have to say it does fit. People have gone off the rails after suffering far lessser personal misfortunes, and ,lets face it, Lukes are galaxy sized. As the Wook put it, the guilt , self doubt and personal recriminations must be almost impossible to live with.
I know Mark was always going to struggle with this fate for his character. Its a bad and unfortunate road for Luke to have had to travel. And it runs so contrary to his own personality , temprement and investment in, as many of us here have commented here, the hopeful and happy future we felt Luke was promised at the end of ROTJ.

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CT, your posts would be much more inviting to read, if you put spaces between your paragraphs. Just a suggestion.

The Wook

Better now? (I've had my morning coffee)

Its really not that difficult to understand Luke's decision to isolate himself and as to why he feels the following the path of the Jedi was a flawed decision . Considering where he is now in relation to both the Skywalkers past and future , really ever since his father was inducted into the Jedi order, there really hasn't been much to be thankful for.

Imagine the impact the discovery that your actual Father was the most hated and deeply despised monster in the Galaxy had on Luke and then later when that secret is exposed to everyone . To have been lied to by your most trusted teachers, Ben and Yoda, so that you walked blindly into its shocking revelation . That has got to hurt almost as much as getting your hand cut off. And then to finally drag an admission from beyond the grave that it was mostly their failure with Anakin that led to the "problem" in the first place .

Its not good. But Luke still choose the Lightside, to trust and have faith by being a "true" Jedi.Only then, to make matters worse, to be rendered absolutely helpless by the Emperors Darkside powers , despite making the right choice by rejecting the Darkside. Its only his fathers intervention that saves him and even that act of redemption ultimately kills him.

So really one could say, from a certain point of view, as a teaching organization for Force users and as a benefit for the safety of the galaxy in general , that the Jedi order with their rather toothless, banal platitudes, directionless musing and wrong prophecies properly suck.

But going forward what then makes it even worse is Luke is made to suffer what must have been an even more terrible blow and bitter lesson.
By choosing following the exact same path, structure and teachings of the old Jedi he manages to replicate the exact same tragedy and failure. To loose all of it AGAIN ,both his academy and his nephew, the son of his best friend and sister, to the temptations of the Darkside . When he ,Luke Skywalker, hero of the Republic and the Last Jedi, does not SEE IT coming despite being the son of Vader.



And at this stage in his life thats a crushing defeat. No wonder he walks away from all of it .
And thats why I don't have any problem at all believing in Luke taking the decision to isolate himself as he has. We've still no real information about whats really happened between ROTJ and TFA and I do think the ambiguity is being talked up in order to generate more interest in the story, but I have to say it does fit.
People have gone of the rails after suffering a far lesser personal misfortunes ,and lets face it, Lukes are galaxy sized. As the Wook put it in his posts, the guilt , self doubt and personal recriminations must be almost impossible to live with. He has not turned to the darkside but its darkness is smothering him in despair.

I know Mark was always going to struggle with this fate for his character. Its as bad and as unfortunate a road for Luke Skywalker to have had to travel as he or we could image. And it also runs so contrary to Marks own positive personality and ultimately as many of us here have commented here, the hopeful and happy future we felt Luke was promised at the end of ROTJ.

Spoilers; Interesting piece confirming being a Skywalker kind of sucks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F7OuhtzOB4

The Wook said:

Well, he's doing something that confounded Mark Hamill.

The Wook

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Not Dark as in full on Sith, but dark in his heart. I think guilt is the right instinct and I think much of that is due to Kylo's fall to evil. Seeing his nephew and based on these EW articles his protege student fall to darkness and become an agent of the First Order would be a crushing failure for Luke. Whatever his designs were for the post ROTJ Jedi Order were all utterly wrong and his self imposed exile is both penance and an effort to know the truth behind the ancient Jedi.

JD said:

With Star Wars, I just need the music to get goose bumps. Luke talking, the layered voices from past movies... lightsabers are all bonuses that fuel my excitement. The trailer didn't show us a whole that was truly new or exciting, but it was still Star Wars and sometimes that's enough.

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I'm always surprised by how much fun it is to anticipate a new SW movie. Not matter what the eventual outcome — the hints, speculation, throwing around theories — the lead up to the release is still a thrill for me.

NeoRutty said:

I have no opinion on porgs...

When I first heard of "Baby Groot" I groaned... oh man... childish crap to sell merch.

Guardians Vol 2. is my favorite movie in YEARS... and Baby Groot was great.

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I feel the exact same about GotG2, and am hoping the same will be true re: Porgs

NeoRutty said:

but Einstein didn't act all uppity and tell people they weren't relatives...

Newton didn't tell people they were more gravity sensitive than others.

You're just being The Wook... which is often times irritating/fun/irritating.

SWIQ can lick my BALLSAQ

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lollollollollollollollollollol:lol

Sluis Van Shipyards said:

I think it's just going to **** off a lot of fans.

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Not alot... only the ones who don't understand that above all else Luke is a human being and human beings can be broken to the point that they change their behaviour.

As has been stated before, how boring it would be if we found him like we left him 30 years ago. To show him in this place--and in the physical and emotional state he appears to be in (not to mention that the actor himself has talked about this being where his character is coning from)--it means something. It shows that something--or alot of somethings--bad has happened to this man to change him in this way... and I want to know what that was. THAT is exciting... keeping the character the exact same is boring and uninteresting.

Of course my SWIQ is woefully low, so what do i know, right? ;-)

The Wook said:

Hope springs eternal.



I would lose my mind. But for the opposite reason you're suggesting.

I know, I know...size matters not...blah, blah, blah. But there are limits to what I want to see a Force-using character...any Force-using character, good or evil...be able to do with his powers. Too much power is boring. Look how boring and annoying Bran has suddenly become, now that he sees and knows everything.

The Wook

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I disagree with you here, with the Bran comparison. First off, Bran hasnt done anything cool or useful with his powers, all he does is make everyone feel uncomfortable. Then he turns his eyes white. And he is an insufferable ******. There are some limits I want to see from a force user, but I want to see more than what we have been shown so far. I want some imagination involved with the force power users. I WANT there to be some gravitas to Luke being the most powerful Jedi, cause lets be honest, we havent seen anything like it to where he or Vader were (forgive me for saying it) the "chosen one". The coolest thing we have seen a force user do, in my opinion, was wreck some rebels at the end of rogue one. Second coolest was stopping a blaster bolt in mid air. Cmon, I want the force users that are adept in the force make it mean something when they say they are a sith or a jedi. Wielding a laser sword and doing a few mind tricks isnt that intimidating.

Cobalt60 said:

qui-gon revealed the secret to "balance" by his one-line-mantra (which was rewarded by The Force Itself, via Immortality) -- he is the only character to unravel the secret:

"Follow the Will of the Force"



it's very simple, really:
- a Jedi who uses the force to enact the will of the force, brings balance to the force.
- a jedi who uses the force "against its will" brings imbalance to the force.

the Jedi Order (as an 'institution') was sworn to uphold the "will of the Senate" at all costs.
they forsook the will of the force.

- even when the senate was shown to be corrupt and dysfunctional, as a deliberate plot point in TPM
(in those "senate scenes" which nobody wants to watch, hence, nobody acknowledges this plot point as "relevant")

- even when the senate was shown to be 'ruled by a sith lord' in AOTC.
(it didn't matter -- the Jedi were sworn to follow the 'bat****-crazy' senate body -- regardless of who's in charge).

they forsook the Will of the Force (the will of their god). as a matter of Policy -- it was a Union of Church and State.
the jedi were sworn to uphold the "will of the people", via the Politics of Fear.
(in the end, the SIth need only control the GOVERNMENT, to control the Jedi Order -- to control both sides of the force).

and when qui-gon suggested they "follow the will of the force" -- (rather than those Evil Politicians) -- they physically rolled their eyes at him. <--THIS caused imbalance in the force. the existence of the Jedi Order.




the role of the "Jedi Knight" is to interpret the Will of the Force, and act it out in the macroscopic world.
this brings "balance" to the universe. and it leads to Immortality (like religion).

the existence of the "Jedi Order" caused imbalance in the force, because, this institution PREVENTED the individual jedi knights (like qui-gon) from following the will of the force.
as we saw in TPM -- they rolled their eyes at the very thought of it -- they thought qui-gon was a dirty hippie for suggesting it.

they followed the "will of the senate", at all costs, even the cost of Galactic War.



when every force user in the galaxy, was actively using the force AGAINST the will of the force (both Jedi and Sith alike),
then the Force responded in Self-Defence. it spawned the Chosen One. to WIPE OUT all force users who were forsaking the WIll of the Force. (jedi and sith alike).

this included the "Jedi Order"; the Sith Order; even the younglings in the temple -- ALL of them -- they were ALL taught to ignore the Will of the Force.
in the end, the only one left alive is Luke: and Luke has been taught a different lesson:
"let go your conscious self" and "let the force guide your actions" (aka: follow the will of the force) <-- this is the key to everything.

when ALL force users in the galaxy are now following the will of the force again , this marks the "Return of the Jedi" and brings balance to the force.
balance of the force was achieved by SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

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I like all of this...well except for the not-so-clever add on of Separation of Church and State tacked on at the end. I take your point, but it may have had a bit too fine of a point put on it.

The overall view of things in this post though i very much like and agree with. :thumbsup

Sluis Van Shipyards said:

If Luke goes to the Dark Side I'd be done with new SW. He already faced down the most powerful Sith Lord in recent history and didn't fall. He veered towards it when he attacked Vader, but didn't give in. So he's going to go to the Dark Side to fight some whiny upstart? I guess it would fit with sitting around for 40 years and not getting anything done.

Also having Luke go dark to fight the Dark Side is like converting the US Marines to suicide bombers to fight the terrorists.

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Totally agree

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Jedi-72 said:

Luke going Dark would at least be interesting. It actually would make sense for him to lean dark. He was young in ROTJ. He didn't know much of anything. Life changes your perspective on the whole concept of good and evil and their inherent natures. Taking him dark would take a somewhat simplistic story and mature it. Put some meat on the bone. Seeing Luke veer that way would be awesome. Maybe not full sith. But over the whole Jedi thing. Realizing that light and dark are halves of the whole and maybe drawing power from both.

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I think that's probably overall where this is going. :thumbsup

The Wook said:

Agreed. Your SWIQ's on a roll, Neo!

I'll just add this: the guilt of Han's death.

There's no more destructive power to the human psyche than guilt.

The Wook

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Absolutely agree 100%.

This is why the things Mark Hammil has been talking about re: Luke's current motivation make total sense to me. It seems like the exact reason he would seclude himself.

Maybe some SWIQ has trickled down the thread and seeped into my brain?

That can't be.... ;-)

Spoilers : Hints about the likely film structure.



And there are loads of Porg scenes with loads of Porgs!!!

JD said:

Simply, I thought GOTG2 had a "meh" story (at best). But, the movie wasn't about the story - it was character and even spectacle driven. It's still one of the top 2 movies I've seen this year (if not still my favorite). It's just so much fun that the story doesn't really need to propel it, it just has everything else going for it - characters, dialog, music...

With Star Wars, I just need the music to get goose bumps. Luke talking, the layered voices from past movies... lightsabers are all bonuses that fuel my excitement. The trailer didn't show us a whole that was truly new or exciting, but it was still Star Wars and sometimes that's enough.

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Yeah the story in Guardians 2 was pretty basic, but worked because it served the characters. Every character in that movie had an arc, and each one was closed. It was pretty insane actually.

That's kind of how I felt in TFA... basic heroes journey that served the characters, so it was pretty satisfying... throw in Daisy cuteness, a graflex, Adam driver and all the Han/Falcon bells and whistles... worked for me!

Now with 8... being the center movie... I expect they will leave some story arc's open so they can wrap it all up in 9.

Is there a date for when we're going to get a full length trailer?

I was really young when i first saw Star Wars and i loved it. Imo the prequels have a really important message regarding corruption, politics, war & religous orders, kids should watch it in schools before they get brainwashed by fake news, propaganda, fake terrorism and corrupt/puppet governments promoting illegal wars. I would much rather let a 5yr old watch Star Wars than the daily TV news. I think if one of those Porgs dies thats whats going to get the kids crying.

Should i not watch any more trailers? i know i shouldnt.. but... the pull of Dark side is too much

These EW articles are great.

http://ew.com/movies/2017/08/11/the-last-jedi-rey-family/amp/

To clarify I have no problem with a Luke that is different from the EU where basically the exact same thing as the Old Republic was created with the Jedi. For Luke not to have at least a couple of fully trained Jedi by now, "academy" attack or not, is lame IMO. Heck I'll even say one. Yeah you could say Ben Solo was that one, but still it seems like a deliberate plan to mirror ANH by literally making Luke into Obi Wan with no Jedi left.

I also don't have a problem with Luke being guilt ridden and having to be convinced to come back. I don't know how the death of your best friend/your sister's husband, your nephew that you trained yourself running amok with a new Empire, etc. doesn't cause you to come back to help though... Beset with guilt or not if my nephew was doing that, I would feel obliged to stop him. It mirrors another problem with the old EU where Jacen Solo turns to the Dark Side and they just have Luke riding it out and not intervening until his sister finally stops him. Oh wait there's a female Force user here that could stop Kylo Ren instead of the person who should do it...

Perhaps Luke considers the Jedi the probable, for the galaxies ills, not the cure. And perhaps that is because of something he has learned on Act-to.

I'm wondering if part of it is what's in those books. Perhaps, those books describe something very different to what Luke has been lead to believe the jedi are all about. There's no telling how long it's been since someone's been there. You'd think if the jedi of the PT were aware of it's location that it would have been in the temple database and then plundered by the empire after it took over. So perhaps he found something time had forgotten?

I think you maybe see that in ROTJ. Luke didn't take down vader using pure thoughts and 100% light sided-ness. He used fear and anger - but he didn't let it control him. In the end, he knew better than to kill vader - father or not. Luke didn't fight the emperor and upon seeing the lighting come from his fingers likely thought WTF is that?!?! He (and we) had no idea at the time you could absorb the lighting with your saber (presumably if you knew what you were doing). So, maybe Luke could have held his own a bit against the emperor. But that wasn't the point, the point then was for vader to toss him overboard to show he wasn't totally gone.

But the point remains, luke wasn't 100% light side in jedi. From choking jabba's guards to using fear and anger against vader he's straddled the line. Perhaps his destiny is to learn you have to balance yourself. There's no one in existence who doesn't feel fear, anger, jealousy, etc. Perhaps part of balance is to be able to utilize those as well without letting them dominate. You balance your anger with even amount of piece and access the whole of the force.

Every time I see this photo of a Porg, I immediately think of Puss in Boots making his cute face................