Okay gents, I think you should lay off now. If you have issues with another member, keep it to yourselves. Don't infect the rest of the thread with it.
Wonder Woman
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
Okay gents, I think you should lay off now. If you have issues with another member, keep it to yourselves. Don't infect the rest of the thread with it.
firesprite
Master Member
Shake your head if you like, however, clinging to an unsubstantiated rumor in the face of actual reviews to the contrary (as well as ignoring hard numbers to refute one of your attempts to equivocate) doesn't do much to endear you to me. As I said, if you don't think that the movie will be good, then don't go.
Will it be a perfect movie? No, probably not. Even the best reviews cite the fact that there are flaws.
Will it be a good movie? It certainly sounds like it.
Will it be DIFFERENT from the previous DC entries, and therefore a welcome breath of fresh air into a franchise that is quickly coming to choke on its adherence to grim-and-gritty toxic masculinity? Yes, absolutely.
Now, don't get me wrong. I enjoyed Man of Steel. I think that Henry Cavill is a good Superman. I enjoyed bits and pieces of Batman v Superman (even if I do think that a more accurate title would be "Ostensibly Smart People Don't Unrelentingly Stupid Things that Could Be Avoided if They Only Talked To Each Other" or "World's Greatest Detective Acts Like Anything But") but it was a BAD movie. Suicide Squad was enjoyable in my mind only because of Margot Robbie, and even that is with a huge grain of salt thanks to the Joker, and the fact that they had humor in it.
Wonder Woman doing well could prompt a course correction for DC that just might rehabilitate this movie universe of theirs and give it long-term legs to actually become something great.
firesprite
Master Member
I hope you're right, but they certainly had no problem pushing her movie back in order to make room for yet another Spider-Man movie.
Fawbish
Sr Member
Really? And in the below, this is three films (not counting Wonder Woman yet) versus 15 films?
Lois Lane, investigation leads to helping to save the earth from Zod. Is a full partner to Clark, and is not being lied to about an identity. Is completely independent.
Lara-El - faces one of the most difficult challenges, stays strong, helps fight off Zod, and then stares him down - all the while knowing of her impending death. Written and filmed with a lot of respect - isn't just "another person in the room" when Kal-El is sent away.
Faora-Ul - badass villain, doesn't rely on anyone else, not particularly complex, I'll give you that. Goes through the destruction of her home world and goes toe to toe with Superman.
Martha Kent - just as important in these films as Jonathan Kent, not simply forgotten or underutilised to drive the father/son relationship. The young Clark locked in broom cupboard scene in MoS and the phonecall in the UE of BvS are fantastic moments for her. She feels real and genuine.
Harley Quinn - far more of a character in SS than the Joker is. One of the main characters of the film, and is written as independent, knows her stuff. Yes, she wears short shorts. As does the character in some interpretations. Seems to be confident in her sexuality so can't say I'd see that as set dressing. Want's a coffee machine. Gets a coffee machine. haha.
Amanda Waller - possibly the most powerful human character in the DCEU so far - with no fighting skills or recognised public authority, goes toe to toe with Bruce without flinching - and is superbly portrayed. Great anti-hero/villainess.
Diana Prince - enough said. Literally saves the day and schools Batman, in both their undercover personas and in their hero personas.
And on the other side of the fence:
Pepper Potts - goes from the PA to running the company, but do we see that development? I like her as a character - not certain she is given her own arc, really. Kills the Mandarin though, cool action scene. But an offscreen removal from the films is a bit sour, and doesn't speak to her importance, which sucks.
Jane Foster - I honestly don't remember a lot about her arc.
Black Widow - solid character, but frustratingly written sometimes.
Scarlet Witch - a nice overall arc from AoU to Civil War, though not particularly stand out in nature I don't think.
About the only female character that I would say is written really well is Peggy Carter. Independent, strong, moral - again, the offscreen death was 50/50 - but I do absolutely love hers and Steve's story though, TFA through to Winter Soldier. Heartbreaking.
Are there any other MCU females that are fully realised well? I dont think they are set dressing for the male characters as such, but I don't see how the DCEU is doing any worse (personally think they are better in that department, but then I am also a man, so perhaps other perspectives might enlighten me) than the MCU in this regard.
Not ranting, btw - just some thoughts on that topic.
Riceball
Master Member
If you count TV then there's -
Gemma Simmons - Smart, brilliant scientist, and is not too bad in the field.
Skye/Daisy/Quake - Brilliant hacker, Inhuman with a pretty decent power level, pretty good at hand to hand. budding leadership qualities.
Agent May - Very tough, at least equal to Black Widow physically, very dependable, highly capable field agent both solo and with a team.
Fawbish
Sr Member
All fantastic characters - I have a particular place for the Fitzsimmons dynamic, it's brilliant - her alien planet trials etc. I don't see it when people seem to look down on AoS - it almost gets stronger season by season, with only the occasional dip into formulaic stuff.
Though I think Quake has taken a bit of a backseat in the latest season, can't put my finger on it why though. I wasn't really thinking about TV though - purely the MCU films to keep the comparisons at the right level. (I know it's technically extended MCU - though as far as I remember the film division no longer recognises the TV division in that sense?) - and whilst I know it probably isn't your intention, having to go to the TV area when there's 15 films to choose is a little indicative, I'd think.
Snikt
Sr Member
Yeah, because Spider-man is a proven money maker. He was the most talked about thing in Civil War. I dont get some of you people sometimes. Of course they would push it back, they are striking while the iron is hot. Not only that, this is a business to MAKE MONEY. Its a huge gamble. I cant believe people are complaining that a Captain Marvel movie got pushed back, who, lets be honest, is SO obscure, should be glad is even on the TABLE. Even if she was a man(which she was) and it was being made I would be like "holy hell they are giving HIM a movie?" You gotta be patient, its hollywood, and one thing hollywood doesnt like to do is gamble. Especially when you are throwing upwards of 150 million dollars at a project that could fail spectacularly for a multitude of reasons. It shouldnt even matter if its a woman or a man, not "male led or female led" but a superhero movie. Period. If you got a good story to tell, people will go see it.
And firesprite why lay into neil like that? All he was doing was asking about numbers. I get he says some dumb **** sometimes but he doesnt need to be bashed for every damn word he types. Sheesh. :wacko
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KrangPrime
Master Member
who hasn't said dumb crap?
when people identify you as a threat to their ideals, they see red and instantly identify you as a target....ignoring 'em doesn't get 'em to stop. complaining doesn't get 'em to stop. firing back doesn't get 'em to back down. hell, even saying nice things to people you don't know hate you gets you trashed. granted, firing back doesn't help much either, but what the hell at this point.
So, from now on i'll try to ignore, or snarkily respond to it if i feel the need to address the crazy. Maybe I should just type out things people hate all in one sentence, get it out of their system? lets try that..
Theaters are not delaying this because it's a woman lead movie. A theater is not sexist if they delay the film. It's a DC movie, so chances are it's going to suck if they can screw up batman with batfleck. This is not womans last stand in theaters if this fails. there have been strong women characters since the 80s..this is nothing new. This is not the first women lead super hero film, discounting the ones that suck is re writing history... Women have had success in films before, Frozen, Hunger Games...Alien.. I think they'll be fine in the future.
there, pick someone you want to latch on to and whine away ;o).
Okay enough.
This thread is meant to discuss the Wonder Woman movie, not snipe at each other over butthurt feelings about transitory words reduced to 1s and 0s.
Let's get back on topic.
This thread is meant to discuss the Wonder Woman movie, not snipe at each other over butthurt feelings about transitory words reduced to 1s and 0s.
Let's get back on topic.
Wow ok, a certified fresh at 95% ! It probably won't stay as high, although who knows, but still, that's fairly impressive ! And more so I read someone comparing this Diana to the JL/JLU one, which I couldn't be happier about.
That's higher than The Dark Knight, which is to me still the top dog of them all, almost 10 years after its release. I was having some slight buyers' remorse about spending 100$ in a train ticket, but now that's completely gone for sure. Hell, now I'm contemplating moving my train earlier, and just taking a day off. That's certainly the first film in a while that got me that impatient to see !
That's higher than The Dark Knight, which is to me still the top dog of them all, almost 10 years after its release. I was having some slight buyers' remorse about spending 100$ in a train ticket, but now that's completely gone for sure. Hell, now I'm contemplating moving my train earlier, and just taking a day off. That's certainly the first film in a while that got me that impatient to see !
firesprite
Master Member
I "laid into" him because during the Ghostbusters 2016 fiasco he spent a LOT of time and energy PMing me at every turn trying to convince me that he is not a jerk who is threatened by women as headliners in movies, but it sure seems like he is one of the loudest voices wanting those films to suck and/or fail. I don't dislike him in the least. I just get frustrated when people I generally like say things that seem ridiculous to me.
As to Captain Marvel, maybe I am being a bit paranoid, but look at the state of comics and comic movies and tell me concern is not at least a little justified.
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Snikt
Sr Member
As you know I havent been into comics in awhile, but yeah, Marvel has been getting their asses hand to them, at least sales wise according to what I have been reading. I wouldnt worry about it though, because Wonder Woman will help Captain Marvel no matter what. If WW does well, Marvel will be like "cool, we know that our female led super heroine movie, if written/made properly will do well". If WW tanks, then like Jonah said Marvel will be like "Well now we have OUR chance to make a female led movie and we will know what NOT to do". Its win win in my opinion. And Captain Marvel is so obscure, to the general audience, they can tweak her to no end and nobody would know or care. She looks badass in the new video game, a movie, if done well, would be rad.
I dont get what you mean about the state of comic movies. As in the bubble will burst?
I go back to admiring The Bionic Woman as a kid and on forward, WW on TV along with Jamie Sommers were some of the first
action heroes represented by women.
I think many of us perceived knuckle draggin' males are far more supportive of female action leads on this forum than the general public.
but not just because or when it feels forced. One of my favorite action films is the original La Femme Nikita. I thought that handled
things so well.
I have put Indiana Jones aside for Lara Croft these days. Christallmighty, Furiosa shared the screen with Mad Max himself and it was beyond the word epic. I don't have a word for it.
I love that character to death. So I may be guilty of examining why a female action hero is put into a film if it's not obvious like WW. Generally men are the ones to use violence as a solution in the world, I don't think that is debatable. Maybe with Nikita, I needed a why? Where as a Rambo, well it's Rambo. Go get them! LOL
Despite my problems with the casting choice, and it's tough to not see WW when everyone is telling you it's WW, I am hearing the right things about this WW film so far, I think they were chicken s*** to introduce her in Steelman Vs Batfleck when a full blown film was deserved being a pillar of the holy DC Trinity.
I don't care too much after an intro or re-intro films that they rush the characters into team films before they have a chance at few solo stories first.
WW surely should have more solo films like Nolan's Batman did, but I am very biased there, because I don't want to see Batfleck. LOL
action heroes represented by women.
I think many of us perceived knuckle draggin' males are far more supportive of female action leads on this forum than the general public.
but not just because or when it feels forced. One of my favorite action films is the original La Femme Nikita. I thought that handled
things so well.
I have put Indiana Jones aside for Lara Croft these days. Christallmighty, Furiosa shared the screen with Mad Max himself and it was beyond the word epic. I don't have a word for it.
I love that character to death. So I may be guilty of examining why a female action hero is put into a film if it's not obvious like WW. Generally men are the ones to use violence as a solution in the world, I don't think that is debatable. Maybe with Nikita, I needed a why? Where as a Rambo, well it's Rambo. Go get them! LOL
Despite my problems with the casting choice, and it's tough to not see WW when everyone is telling you it's WW, I am hearing the right things about this WW film so far, I think they were chicken s*** to introduce her in Steelman Vs Batfleck when a full blown film was deserved being a pillar of the holy DC Trinity.
I don't care too much after an intro or re-intro films that they rush the characters into team films before they have a chance at few solo stories first.
WW surely should have more solo films like Nolan's Batman did, but I am very biased there, because I don't want to see Batfleck. LOL
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KrangPrime
Master Member
at this point, i'm just flat out tired of batman. Martian Manhunter, one of 5 green lanterns, Star Girl, superGirl....Batgirl....Steel, Vixen, Booster Gold....someone more interesting has to be able to take front and center that hasn't been tried before. and WW of course
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There is such a thing as too much of a good thing or going back to the well once too often, over saturation can
make one numb to anything.
Some complain there are too many comic book movies now, I certainly cannot say they do not have a point
especially if they were never comic fans to begin with. Once upon a time there was tons of westerns on screen
and TV. Now they are quite rare. So comic based films and similar have their time now I guess until tastes change.
Pick the best stuff, don't have to see everything, I certainly have skipped quite a few, Get's easier as you get older and cynical.
Man I used to see everything and a half if it was slightly Sci Fi/Fantasy/Comic related once upon a time.
Well I didn't see Krull.
make one numb to anything.
Some complain there are too many comic book movies now, I certainly cannot say they do not have a point
especially if they were never comic fans to begin with. Once upon a time there was tons of westerns on screen
and TV. Now they are quite rare. So comic based films and similar have their time now I guess until tastes change.
Pick the best stuff, don't have to see everything, I certainly have skipped quite a few, Get's easier as you get older and cynical.
Man I used to see everything and a half if it was slightly Sci Fi/Fantasy/Comic related once upon a time.
Well I didn't see Krull.
Actually the one thing that I keep hearing about the film that makes me want to go see it is that it's fun...
To me, Marvel heroes were always about the 'flawed hero': the mutants that were outcast by mainstream society, the orphan bestowed with great powers but with the Charlie Brown complex, the alcoholic billionaire industrialist, etc. etc...
DC heroes were the "Gods that walk among us" and meant to inspire.
I can honestly say that I haven't overly liked the recent DC movie universe because they haven't been fun... the Nolan Batman gets a pass because he's meant to be dark and brooding and gritty (though TDKR I thought was a weak film)... any other portrayal of him otherwise and you get Adam West or worse, Batman Forever...
Did not like MoS or BvS for the main reason that Superman of all heroes is the 'big blue boy scout" and a 'dark and gritty' and angst filled Superman, if you'll pardon the pun, doesn't fly with me.
The original Christopher Reeves Superman nailed it even in it's tag line "You'll believe a man can fly..."
Sure it wasn't a perfect film... far from it (reversing the Earth's rotation to go back in time?!? WTH?) but it at least captured the essence of who Superman is...
Frankly if Wonder Woman can bring back the "Wonder" and the fun back into the DC movie universe it can gladly have my money...
To me, Marvel heroes were always about the 'flawed hero': the mutants that were outcast by mainstream society, the orphan bestowed with great powers but with the Charlie Brown complex, the alcoholic billionaire industrialist, etc. etc...
DC heroes were the "Gods that walk among us" and meant to inspire.
I can honestly say that I haven't overly liked the recent DC movie universe because they haven't been fun... the Nolan Batman gets a pass because he's meant to be dark and brooding and gritty (though TDKR I thought was a weak film)... any other portrayal of him otherwise and you get Adam West or worse, Batman Forever...
Did not like MoS or BvS for the main reason that Superman of all heroes is the 'big blue boy scout" and a 'dark and gritty' and angst filled Superman, if you'll pardon the pun, doesn't fly with me.
The original Christopher Reeves Superman nailed it even in it's tag line "You'll believe a man can fly..."
Sure it wasn't a perfect film... far from it (reversing the Earth's rotation to go back in time?!? WTH?) but it at least captured the essence of who Superman is...
Frankly if Wonder Woman can bring back the "Wonder" and the fun back into the DC movie universe it can gladly have my money...
Spot on, no dark Superman for me either. He is of the light, contrast to The Batman. Oh well.
Think of it this way... he didn't turn the Earth backwards in time, he traveled so fast around the Earth such that HE travelled back in time.
Totally works. Einstein surely would agree with me, the dog from BTTF, not the other guy. But that still counts.
Now you can love the film even more. You're welcome.
Spot on, no dark Superman for me either. He is of the light, contrast to The Batman. Oh well.
Think of it this way... he didn't turn the Earth backwards in time, he traveled so fast around the Earth such that HE travelled back in time.
Totally works. Einstein surely would agree with me, the dog from BTTF, not the other guy. But that still counts.
Now you can love the film even more. You're welcome.
Careful or I'll toss my cling wrap "S" shield at you!
Careful or I'll toss my cling wrap "S" shield at you!
Yeah, damn I don't have a way to BS that one into credibility. Maybe when he needed to wrap a sammich up it was just really really convenient.
And the "S" would make sure everyone would know it was his in the fridge.
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