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  1. DavidS's Avatar
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    Jan 10, 2017, 12:04 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #151

    That's basically the whole premise of JJ Trek
    Kirk just happened to be in the right place at the time time and got appointed cpt


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  2. Riceball's Avatar
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    Jan 10, 2017, 1:40 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #152

    DavidS said: View Post
    That's basically the whole premise of JJ Trek
    Kirk just happened to be in the right place at the time time and got appointed cpt


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    But nobody in their right mind would have kept him on as captain after the events of the first movie. You congratulate him on a job well done, give him a medal or two, write some nice stuff in his records, maybe graduate him a bit early from the Academy, but after that it's the same assignments you'd give any fresh from the Academy Ensign. No matter how talented and lucky Kirk may have been, he's still too young to hand the command of a ship, esp. one as large as the Enterprise. In addition to all sorts of protocol and traditions that he'd be expected to know, he's also very inexperienced and one successful engagement is not nearly enough to teach anybody all they need to know about being a Starship captain, don't mention a good and successful Starship captain.
  3. Riceball's Avatar
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    Jan 10, 2017, 1:50 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #153

    p51 said: View Post
    Go back through history and you'll see plenty of examples of that very thing. Think Royal Navy any time prior to 1900 and especially in the age of sail (where captains could be well past retirement age), or the US Cavalry on the plains. You could go 20 years without being promoted once and not be considered a failure, career-wise. Starfleet, to me, always seemed to be a merit-based organization. You could skip a few rungs on the ladder if you were in the right place and time.
    For example, Picard went directly from Helmsman to Captain. You'd never see that in any modern Navy.
    But your examples are of much smaller forces, nothing near as large as Starfleet is, in an organization as large as Starfleet appears to be there should be plenty of room for promotion but not when there's no vacancies because nobody takes any promotions. It's one thing for an organization to promote slowly because of its small size and/or culture, but it's something entirely different when people don't or can't get promoted because nobody is taking offered promotions. Sure, in Starfleet somebody could skip being an XO and move directly to the Captain's chair but this can only happen if the Captain is willing to vacate his chair when he's supposed to. And that's my problem with the way they depict Starfleet during TNG as working, promotions are abnormally slow for a such a large organization because people can and do refuse to move on thereby creating no openings for other people to move into. You see what I mean?
  4. RPF Premium Member Edraven99's Avatar
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    Jan 10, 2017, 1:56 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #154

    Mara Jade's Father said: View Post
    First of all, we don't have to wait for it. We saw it about 17 years ago.

    Second, that statement is not true.

    Third, don't be mad at the show, be mad at Terry Farrel. She is the one who left the show to work on the Ted Danson series Becker.
    Actually what did bug me about all of that was that once Terry Farrel was off the show... she was *off* the show...

    In the last episode of DS9, despite the fact that Jadzia Dax was a main character on it for 5 out of the 7 seasons, there wasn't any mention of the character at all... not a blip. Nothing in the flashbacks, nadda...

    Regardless of whether or not the actor's departure from the show was amicable or not, I thought that it was a pretty big disservice to all of the fans of the show that the character and its history wasn't at least acknowledged...
  5. Treadwell's Avatar
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    Jan 10, 2017, 2:17 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #155

    When you show someone in a flashback, you have to pay them.

    ...which is why the "previously on" opens on Supernatural always surprise me, because they rarely hesitate to show someone who hasn't been seen in years, and I always think "hey, paycheck for Jewel Staite!"
  6. 0neiros's Avatar
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    Jan 10, 2017, 2:31 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #156

    I'd happily give Jewel Staite a paycheck...for services rendered. If only there were an internet coupon.
  7. p51's Avatar
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    Jan 10, 2017, 6:06 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #157

    Riceball said: View Post
    But your examples are of much smaller forces, nothing near as large as Starfleet is, in an organization as large as Starfleet appears to be there should be plenty of room for promotion but not when there's no vacancies because nobody takes any promotions. It's one thing for an organization to promote slowly because of its small size and/or culture, but it's something entirely different when people don't or can't get promoted because nobody is taking offered promotions. Sure, in Starfleet somebody could skip being an XO and move directly to the Captain's chair but this can only happen if the Captain is willing to vacate his chair when he's supposed to. And that's my problem with the way they depict Starfleet during TNG as working, promotions are abnormally slow for a such a large organization because people can and do refuse to move on thereby creating no openings for other people to move into. You see what I mean?
    Well, in the case of the Royal Navy throughout the age of sail, that was exactly what happened. Men became a captain and it wasn't unusual for them to stay there for life.
    The Royal navy was a small force? Tell that to everyone who encountered them throughout the 18th and 19th centuries!
    Besides, how big is Starfleet, really? How many times were the same ships sent because nobody else was around? Sure, they hinted at a large organization but numbers were never mentioned as far as I know. And when they fought the Borg in their drive to Earth (a fight where you'd have expected every available Federation vessel to have taken part, representational of a large portion of the overall force), I don't recall a mass of busted spacecraft anywhere near the number of vessels that King George III had at his disposal during the wars with France!
  8. Riceball's Avatar
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    Jan 10, 2017, 9:08 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #158

    p51 said: View Post
    Well, in the case of the Royal Navy throughout the age of sail, that was exactly what happened. Men became a captain and it wasn't unusual for them to stay there for life.
    The Royal navy was a small force? Tell that to everyone who encountered them throughout the 18th and 19th centuries!
    Besides, how big is Starfleet, really? How many times were the same ships sent because nobody else was around? Sure, they hinted at a large organization but numbers were never mentioned as far as I know. And when they fought the Borg in their drive to Earth (a fight where you'd have expected every available Federation vessel to have taken part, representational of a large portion of the overall force), I don't recall a mass of busted spacecraft anywhere near the number of vessels that King George III had at his disposal during the wars with France!
    Given that Starfleet represents multiple planets it stands to reason that it's much than any Earth bound navy ever was, including the Royal Navy. Just because we never see what should be the entirety of Starfleet on screen doesn't mean it's not massive. As far as the only ship in the area thing, you do realize that that's just simply a plot device to explain why our heroes have to be in a given area. Besides, given that the Federation encompasses at least one full quadrant of the Milky Way that's a lot of space and makes it easy for only one ship to be available at the time. This is especially true if you assume that Starfleet follows current navy practices and doesn't have every single ship in its fleet out on patrol all of the time. At any given time you're going to have ships travelling to and from their home ports and patrol areas or other assignments. Then you're going to have ships under going refits, both minor and major, so at any given time you're likely to have only half of your actual fleet available at any time; during a major crises you could probably bump it up to maybe 3/4 as you turn ships heading home or have just gotten back home back out to deal with whatever the emergency is.

    As far as promotions go, it's still messed up because it's not just the captains staying on longer than they should but it's also their XOs and presumably every other officer in other billets as well. And in your Royal Navy example, I'm pretty sure that most, if not all, of these captains who were staying for the remainder of their careers were not doing so by turning promotions to other ships or to the Admiralty but because the RN only had need for so many Admirals, Since they clearly had not yet adopted an up or out policy yet what else are you going to do with these ship's captains but continue to allow them to command their ships?

    Like I said, if the examples set by Riker and Picard are the norm for Starfleet and presumably the norm for all ranks and billets and nobody moves on until they get their dream billet offered to them then there's no movement in the ranks because everybody is waiting for someone in the job they want to eventually take a promotion and move on and this doesn't happen until that person's dream billet becomes open. Let me put this in a way you might understand, say the US Army worked like Starfleet seems to, you start your career as a 2nd Lt and command a platoon, you continue to do so as a 1st Lt, then it comes time for you to pick up Captain and get command of a Company, except that there are no Company Commander billets open because none of the current Company Commanders have taken a promotion yet because they're all either happy being a Company Commander and don't want to give up command of their Company, or they're waiting for an XO or CO billet of a specific Battalion to open up. But the XOs & COs of said Battalion haven't moved on yet because they're waiting for the same reasons as their juniors, and so on up the food chain.
  9. Inquisitor Peregrinus's Avatar
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    Jan 11, 2017, 7:21 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #159

    A few things... We know there are at least ten "fleets", which term seems to be more a matter of "ships operating under the operational authority of such-and-so Admiral out of Starbase yadda-yadda for XYZ chunk of Federation space" than "bunch of ships all going to this place and doing that thing at once". Except in time of war when the nominal fleets muster to converge on the hot spot. I use "Court Marital" as a good example. The ships on the chart in Stone's office were all operating out of Starbase 11, but on their own individual missions rather than in a single massed flotilla. A good analogy would be the US Pacific Fleet and Atlantic Fleet. There are individual ships and battle groups and task forces within each, and it'd take something major to mass the whole fleet in one place.

    We know that, at least as of the Dominion War, there were a minimum of ten fleets in Starfleet. The Second Fleet was the one that covered the region including the Bajor Sector, and many Starfleet assets were retasked to it during the late buildup and early stages of the actual war. Elements of the Fifth and Ninth Fleets were added to it for the retaking of Deep Space 9, with the station becoming the new HQ for the Ninth Fleet for the remainder of the war. The Fifth was retasked from defending Bolian space, and the Sixth Fleet redeployed to compensate. The Third Fleet went to bolster the defense of Sector 001 after the Breen attack (probably reinforcing the First Fleet), the Seventh Fleet was the primary roadblock to core systems like Betazed and Vulcan, and got repeatedly mauled by the Cardassian-Dominion forces. The Tenth Fleet was behind them, defending Betazed. The Fourth and Eighth Fleets aren't mentioned and were likely on the far side of Federation space, being deployed to cover the coreward parts of Alpha and Beta Quadrants (Ferengi space, the First Federation, the Romulans...). We consistently see majority portions of those fleets in the couple-hundred-ship range -- many of them ships we normally see serving as behind-the-lines science or transport vessels. And the combined portion of the Second and Fifth Fleets going to retake DS9 (the Ninth was a day behind) numbered roughly 600.

    So it's easy for me to extrapolate that out to about 5,000 or so active vessels in Starfleet circa 2375, including non-combatants and those being repaired. Out of those, there are nine Galaxy class starships, and only the best of the best get there. This also doesn't include non-Starfleet "civilian" ships flagged to one or another member system. I imagine there are all levels of aspiration and ambition amongst 24th-century folks (human and non), and many are content hauling cargo, many are content getting whatever billet will let them study nebulae or pulsars or what have you. Comparatively few might even be interested in trying to get onto a deep-space Explorer that can, should the mission dictate, head out away from known space for a good fifteen years at a stretch.

    Picard did something between the loss of the Stargazer and when we first meet him in "Encounter at Farpoint" to give him a lot of clout, enough to get the new Enterprise and handpick his command crew. They offered him a promotion to the Admiralty and the position of Commandant of Starfleet Academy that same year. Riker had been offered his first command when he was still a Lieutenant Commander (probably the rank Picard was when he had to take the bridge of the Stargazer, by the way), and he'd only been a full Commander and on the Enterprise for about a year and a half when they made their second offer. It was only when they made their third offer another year and a half after that that he was in someone's way on the Enterprise for the first time. And Shelby's ambition was out of the ordinary, as Hanson commented on it and both Riker and Picard were rocked back by it. I get the feeling for those top-of-the-line ships, you have to really want it to get there.

    As for the other command crew oddities... Given how many Chief Engineers they went through in the first season, I wouldn't be surprised if Picard had tapped Geordie for the position, but he had to finish out one more year as Lt., j.g., before he could be given the position. It was also odd that Yar was both Security Chief (Operations Division) and Tactical Officer (Command Division). Worf was basically Deputy Tactical Officer, and took over as both when she died (even though he didn't get promoted to full Lieutenant until season three). Not sure why the Operations color would take precedence in that sort of doubled position. Similarly, why was Spock in Sciences blue when he was also the First Officer (Command Division)?

    Anyway, data to ponder...

    --Jonah
  10. jarroth's Avatar
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    Jan 13, 2017, 2:11 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #160

    i am glad Spock never had a red shirt
  11. CB2001's Avatar
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    Jan 29, 2017, 12:20 AM - Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #161

    jarroth said: View Post
    i am glad Spock never had a red shirt
    Hate to burst your bubble, but Spock did wear a red shirt. From Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, ST5 to ST: The Undiscovered Country. And that's because it became the standard Starfleet uniform.
  12. Inquisitor Peregrinus's Avatar
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    Jan 30, 2017, 4:42 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #162

    CB2001 said: View Post
    Hate to burst your bubble, but Spock did wear a red shirt. From Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, ST5 to ST: The Undiscovered Country. And that's because it became the standard Starfleet uniform.
    Doesn't really count. That's a non-department-specific service coat. His shirt was white, for Command. In that era, BTW, Security was Windsor Green. The only literal redshirts in that arc were Academy Midshipmen (and, to a degree, enlisted Trainees -- no Departmental undershirt, but they did have Service Department colors on shoulder tabs and the left-sleeve service band).

    --Jonah
  13. dascoyne's Avatar
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    Jan 30, 2017, 5:16 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #163

    It bothers me that every single major political event seems balanced on the actions of a single ship in the entire fleet - The Enterprise. I wish this was an "Expanded Universe" where there were stories of other ships and their adventures and contributions.
    It bothers me that this new Kirk doesn't act much like a leader (I haven't seen the last film, maybe it's changed) and seems to be celebrated yet routinely disobeys direct orders and manages to get his ship destroyed in every mission.
  14. Sluis Van Shipyards's Avatar
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    Jan 30, 2017, 8:10 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #164

    Well they fix everything, of course you send the Enterprise!
  15. RPF Premium Member The Terminator's Avatar
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    Mar 26, 2017, 4:35 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #165

    Re-watching TNG.... annoying they didn't catch the obvious error, when they say the surface temperature is -292C(which is physically impossible) and it even says so on the monitor...
  16. KojiroVance's Avatar
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    Mar 26, 2017, 9:52 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #166

    jarroth said: View Post
    i am glad Spock never had a red shirt
    Silly boy, he earned his red shirt at the end of ST II: TWOK.

    (ducking and running)

    Just reviewing the first page and last few pages. There will always be holes and goofs because the Trek franchise has had to operate under schedule and constricted budgets ... gotta make some episodes, gotta find a new story to make a movie out of,... etc. I admire that the original series had vets (Doohan, Roddenberry, Jeffries?, et al) working on it who could bring a wee dram of realism to the "space fleet" paradigm. Sure, they played fast and loose with some conventions over the years, but they created a reasonably believable military structure that could be utilized in a variety of dramatic situations. New Coke Trek aggravates me because they just ignore that out of, I dunno, ignorance?

    Anyone recall which TOS S1 episode wherein Scotty tells Kirk that the "special space detail is set?" That's classic USN terminology.
  17. Jeyl is offline Jeyl
    Mar 27, 2017, 9:26 AM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #167

    The Terminator said: View Post
    Re-watching TNG.... annoying they didn't catch the obvious error, when they say the surface temperature is -292C(which is physically impossible) and it even says so on the monitor...
    The Royale? Oh, boy that episode. Forget the temperature. The wind speed alone would cover two football fields in a second. And let's not forget the dead astronaught. Data mentions a lack of decomposition and Riker concludes that the poor dope died in his sleep. All of this dialogue would suggest that the writers had intended a real person to be laying in bed instead of a dried up skeleton.
  18. RPF Premium Member Edraven99's Avatar
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    Mar 27, 2017, 11:49 AM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #168

    dascoyne said: View Post
    It bothers me that every single major political event seems balanced on the actions of a single ship in the entire fleet - The Enterprise. I wish this was an "Expanded Universe" where there were stories of other ships and their adventures and contributions.
    It bothers me that this new Kirk doesn't act much like a leader (I haven't seen the last film, maybe it's changed) and seems to be celebrated yet routinely disobeys direct orders and manages to get his ship destroyed in every mission.
    Actually a pretty good "explanation" for Kirk's actions was given in the Voyager episode Flashback - the one where Tuvok and Janeway 're-live' Tuvok's time on the Excelsior during the events of ST:VI

    Captain Kathryn Janeway: It was a very different time, Mr. Kim. Captain Sulu, Captain Kirk, Doctor McCoy - they all belonged to a different breed of Starfleet officer. Imagine the era they lived in: the Alpha Quadrant still largely unexplored, Humanity on verge of war with Klingons, Romulans hiding behind every nebula. Even the technology we take for granted was still in its early stages: no plasma weapons, no multiphasic shields; their ships were half as fast.

    Ensign Harry Kim: No replicators; no holodecks. You know, ever since I took Starfleet history at the Academy, I always wondered what it would be like to live in those days.

    Captain Kathryn Janeway: Space must have seemed a whole lot bigger back then. It's not surprising they had to bend the rules a little. They were a little slower to invoke the Prime Directive, and a little quicker to pull their phasers. Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today. But I have to admit, I would have loved to ride shotgun at least once with a group of officers like that.
  19. RPF Premium Member The Terminator's Avatar
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    Mar 27, 2017, 2:28 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #169

    Jeyl said: View Post
    The Royale? Oh, boy that episode. Forget the temperature. The wind speed alone would cover two football fields in a second. And let's not forget the dead astronaught. Data mentions a lack of decomposition and Riker concludes that the poor dope died in his sleep. All of this dialogue would suggest that the writers had intended a real person to be laying in bed instead of a dried up skeleton.
    I think that was the episode, yes

    Basic stuff like that, they should be able to handle

    "Are you smarter than a......" - NOPE
  20. KrangPrime is offline KrangPrime
    May 5, 2017, 2:57 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #170

    been reliving ds9 for the first time in a while.

    i forgot how much more i liked dax before worf showed up.

    seemed like a bit of a character shift after worf.
  21. KrangPrime is offline KrangPrime
    May 18, 2017, 8:10 AM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #171

    going th rough Deep Space Nine rather quickly.


    I noticed during season 4, they changed the rank insignia on cheif obrian..

    I wonder if it's because people thought he was an ensign with the one pip on his collar?
  22. MooCriket's Avatar
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    May 18, 2017, 2:14 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #172

    I love the writers belief and insistence that Obrian must suffer. I definitely prefer Worf's Dax over her replacement, who really was annoying. I just re-watched the Baseball episode. Great episode other than Sisko pushing it a bit over the top. He needed a bat to the ass for his attitude during part of the training, as did the Vulcans throughout the entirety of the episode.
  23. Treadwell's Avatar
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    May 18, 2017, 2:32 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #173

    I certainly didn't help that I'm not a baseball fan, but I found that episode to be a complete waste and a masturbatory exercise on the part of the writers, who ARE baseball fans.
  24. Angelus Lupus's Avatar
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    May 18, 2017, 3:03 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #174

    Not to mention it was kinda racist towards Vulcans "LOL, they all look the same!"
    But yeah, a whole episode about baseball? Not the best. I didn't like the one that was entirely about Vic's holographic bar being taken over. And really, what was the point of a sentient 60's lounge-singer holo-program anyway?
  25. Treadwell's Avatar
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    May 18, 2017, 5:05 PM - Re: Star Trek: stuff that grinds my gears... #175

    Agreed. Fontaine was an interesting character for a one-shot, but recurring? And the focus of episodes? No.

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