Beware dealing with Reel Images Leatherwear

EDIT: You know what? Nevermind.

I'm done talking to Mr. Struss.

This thread exists as a warning, not a soapbox for me to rail at him directly, however much I may want to.

Though I should note:

This is the first time I've been able to get such a definite confirmation of his intent to replace my items in almost six months.

I guess the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the threatened litigation.

Kurt and Chris......just an impression and again I'm not taking sides since personally I am being neutral here BUT so far all I see here is a simple jacket fix that in my opinion shouldn't this have been taken care of in a matter of weeks at the most rather than over 4 months that still hadn't been resolved?..... according to the timeline posted in the first page ...or are we missing something here? I hope both of you can resolve this...you guys don't have to love each other but don't let your emotions or egos drive you. Looks to me you have a nice product and leaving communication open no matter how annoying it can be sometimes is one good factor of customer service. If Chris is as irrational as you claim then that would be abundantly clear after awhile but blocking off communication entirely isn't the answer and doesn't help you in most everyone's eyes.

There is nothing personal in this thread, for me.

As far as I am concerned there is no continuing professional relationship between Mr. Struss and I, and I do not expect to receive anything from him in the future.

Kurt has consistently demonstrated a talent for misdirection and obfuscation, which have led to numerous incidents of irritation over the past year.

If he chooses to label me irrational for getting upset with him for being vague, missing deadline, and providing inferior products well, I guess I'd rather be irrational than a complete pushover that lets people give him the run-around.

I suppose the fact that I apologize when I get upset proves something, though I don't know that it's any sort of instability.

I'm through responding to his goading, now. I'll let this thread lie and hopefully help some other fans make a more informed decision.

Tymer nailed it, every single time, so no point in me repeating everything. How this issue wasn't fix in 1-2 week, a month MAXIMUM is just absurd.

Thanks Chris for the warning, i know a lot of people don't enjoy giving money to businesses and getting headaches in return!

Edit: Just went over the copy of the transcript checking the dates... It's inexcusable to let a customer hanging like that for so long...

Tvayumat is obviously upset, that's what happens when people get sold a $500 dud.

If the item is to be replaced then what's the hold up? Good communication really stops this kind of thing happening.

I myself once got threatened with legal action because i complained about a product, despite being in the right i did shat myself, that was over a year ago and i now realise it was just scare tactics to stop me sounding off about it.

I hope this can be resolved amicably by both parties.

As someone who sells a lot of items things like this always fall back on the seller. You send out something subpar like that, replace it. Get it done as quickly as possible-even if you don't want to. Guy has every right to be angry and irrational if you've strung him along for months and then block him. Just refund or replace. That simple.

Why the hostility? Why don't you just deliver what you promised to begin with? Stop trying to defend an indefensible position, man-up, and take care of your customer. What you are doing here is reputation suicide. If you can't give him the goods then refund the money. Is this really worth it? Also, you keep bringing up how this is personal for you. Why? This is business, stop being a leech and deliver.

Kurt1962 said:

Gents,
Chris has been told he would be taken care of and in what fashion on previous post in our FB thread. He knows this. The method he has chosen here will not change that. I have the facts on his past behavior, which is the concern for me on a personal level.

When the factory takes care of my concerns with them, Chris being one, the issue will be resolved. I just won't stand for the methods he chooses. By his own admission he gets irrational and choose to try and shame and troll. My good rep has existed for years, in many fields. I have forwarded the post from the FB thread which shows you have acted in this fashion before, then ashamedly apologize, to the forum owner.

Chris, I never had any intention of not taking care of you. You let your admittedly irrational behavior get the best of you again.

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Kurt1962 said:

Chris, I never had any intention of not taking care of you. You let your admittedly irrational behavior get the best of you again.

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I was on the fence as to whether or not to chime in. I like Chris. I like Kurt. I have no desire to get in the middle of a fire fight or to make anyone upset. That being said, I have opinions and decided to share them.

This leather order was not a small amount of money, even to the initial investors who got a very, very good price. Let me dwell on that point for a moment: When I signed up for the project, I wasn't even aware that a business was to be formed from it. I thought this was solely a fan project, just on a very large scale. I did not know at the time that I was essentially an investor in a startup. It's quite possible that you didn't even know that at the time.

Regardless of whether the vendor is Kurt the fan or Reel Images the company, this was, in my opinion, a business transaction where certain expectations were set. The buyers had a reasonable expectation of getting a product of a certain quality, and in a certain timeline.

Some people, particularly those in the first wave, did not get what they expected, and as such have a right to be upset. If Chris feels that the product he received is not what he expected, it's not unreasonable for him to ask for replacements / refunds / etc...

Since this transaction did not include any clearly defined terms with regard to buyer satisfaction, where it goes from there is pretty open ended. As the vendor, you can choose to be a hero and make it right, you can choose to tell the customer that all transaction is final and to have a nice day, or anything in between.

In this case, as the vendor, you told him that you would help him to become happy with his product. You made that choice, which I think is a great thing. The fact that 4 more months have passed after the 8+ months that went by leading up to the initial delivery may be unavoidable, but you have to appreciate that he's not going to be happy about it.

I'm sure that if you step out of the role of vendor and think as a customer you can see that it must be quite frustrating to him.

In my mind, reputation is not a person's successes, it is how he/she handles failures. Those are the memories that stick with me. Taking the "low road" with lawyers and slander accusations is going to leave far more of a mark than hundreds amazing suits in the world that wouldn't exist without your work.

I always try to stay out of these but I'd like to throw in what I experienced. It's hard to tell if he actually wants to do this or even cares about the customers at this point. When he started the second run I had plenty of extra cash to pitch in but had a few questions before doing so. I sent Kurt 2 messages a week apart asking for some details and both were ignored, finally I sent a third because I really wanted to get a Dredd suit. All he said to me was, "Are you up to speed on the price?"

I replied saying I wasn't and would love more info. It was read and ignored again. I may have took it wrong, but him asking that question and then not responding back made me feel as if he was thinking I wasn't good for it. Using peoples personal Facebook's for business has always made me feel a bit awkward but he was always posting on the Dredd costuming facebook group, so I thought that was the best way of speaking to him. Plus two friends that already owned suits from him told me to talk to him before ordering on his site. Every single message I sent I was extremely polite despite being ignored.

Out of frustration I finally sent my last desperate message because he is literally the only one that makes vests at the moment.

"I realize you're a busy guy through all of this, and I also know that you probably get a lot of people saying "OH I'M GOING TO BUY THIS" and never come through. I've had plenty of people do that to myself, but it gets frustrating when you blatantly ignore a customer. Just a simple 5 word response would even suffice, "yes order from my site" and we'd be golden."

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Read. Ignored.

That's the moment when I decided to give up on Dredd for a while.
But oh well, I spent that money on screen used Necromonger armor so it ended up being a win for me anyways!

Is this the same Kurt whose stuff everyone keeps modifying on here? I think Art had to work on something he got too but i'm not sure, i'm surprised he hasn't chimed in.

Wes R said:

Is this the same Kurt whose stuff everyone keeps modifying on here? I think Art had to work on something he got too but i'm not sure, i'm surprised he hasn't chimed in.

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Yes, Kurt Struss heads up Reel Images Leatherwear, where most of us obtained our leathers and vests.

Not currently putting my 2 cents in, but did want to post this here for interested parties:

This was posted 20 hours ago on the Reel Image Leatherwear facbook page:

We'd like to thank everyone for the ride so far! Due to issues we currently face, we are taking a step back for awhile to address the factory logistics and other concerns.

We have development of new coats to attend to and loose ends from start of this wonderful endeavor.

I'll continue to update here as we wrap retail orders and sort the factory.

Thank You,
Kurt

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Direct link to post: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=482999278471774&id=408151529289883&stream_ref=10

This was posted 22 hours ago on The Judge Dredd Costume Group facebook page (a public group):

Attention Judges:

I hope to have my remaining suits out by month end once DC 168 vest come in. Tracking has them supposedly here next week. So the 13 males and females will be out.

Then the retail shots. After that I believe I will wrap it up for a while. It has been a real roller coaster and I have never met a better group of people.

Some recent family changes require my attention and right now Dredd is getting it all.

I'll continue to sort issues from any item out there. Just taking a breather for a bit on future orders and work on development stuff.

Thanks All

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Direct link to post: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Dre...n2013/permalink/609649549103291/?stream_ref=2

Also the Reel Images Leatherwear website has been set to maintenance mode: http://www.reelimagesleatherwear.com

So it doesn't sound like they're interested in maintaining a good reputation if they're shutting shop.

For a first attempt at jumping in the game Kurt has taken on one hell of a project with this ,
He's got a great product as far as the leathers and he's currently the only supplier of complete vests.
All & all I'm pleased with my rig, I can sit here an pick it apart if I wanted to but I won't.
What left a bad taste in my mouth was the long wait that some of us had after being leap-frogged by others and the lack of response to certain questions ..
I honestly think he's making an effort to get things sorted and with a little advise from some more experienced vendors he should get back on track as long as everyone is honest with him and not blowing smoke up his ass praising his work..

i rarely post here, in all honesty i think people are open to a massive slagging off but

i was on the receiving end of one of Chris's hostile little jibes, he is very good at playing the victim and also superb at twisting the story to suit his argument. Im not going to get into the whos right and who is wrong here, but

ill post a copy of what i posted in the Dcon group the other day shortly below, im not very close to Kurt at all, and as for Chris.... he took his option of deleting and blocking every single member who disagreed with him on his 'opinion' of my holsters. Kurts run has been beset with issues out of his control, and as for using the 'hes a business' line, he hasnt (that i am aware of) actually gone through with this yet, and judging by the abuse hes getting (and beleive me its small considering the size of the run) i doubt he ever will.

for me this boils down to expectation far out weighing what the actual reality ever was going to be, for $500 we received a very very close to a look that was screen recognisable, and thats the issue, some have expected it to be effectively as good as the screen used stuff, that was naive at best to expect that, also given the tragic natural disaster that effected Pakistan and effectively shut production time down some 4 months, its also hardly fair that that is then used as a means to complain. Chris has posted a snap shot of the convo he and kurt had, what he hadnt posted was the quite disgusting comments and abuse Kurt had from him for a couple of weeks running up to that. Again in the interest of fairness, it has to be mentioned.

i have no doubt that some will roll their eyes at my post, that chris will engage his keyboard rage as normal and i will undoubtedly get stick for this, but imho Kurt has made mistakes, he has however on each and every occasion stood up and addressed them, as for being blocked, Chris has Kurts email address, and come on guys, we all were able to communicate and buy props long before Facebook was created ...

anyway heres my post and i just think this is a pretty unfair thread from a pretty angry member who has been censored numerous times with his rants

there has been a lot of people pretty unhappy (and in some cases every right to be) that they haven't got their kit etc from Kurt ....but ...... i've honestly in all my years of costuming (and its way more than you think lol) have never come across a guy who has consistently stood up and been as open on a run, and in doing so been subjected to what is pretty horrible behaviour in some cases. was he a little Naive? possibly... did he disappear? no... he kept each and every one of us informed, and in some cases, overly informed to a point that people expected info at the drop of a hat.
i genuinely think some have lost sight of the sheer size of the task Kurt took on, originally it was going to be a double figure run of friends who wanted to be judges, this then ballooned to such a huge extent that the initial task became not only larger, but effectively of a size that multi national organisations would of spent months setting the logistics PRIOR to engaging the run., it would of been easy for Kurt to simply say, 'no sorry im sticking to original numbers'...he didnt, hes helped each and every one of us out. and yeh of course there has been mistakes, but its only from mistakes that you learn to get better at a task...
this isnt me blowing smoke up Kurts ass, its me simply saying thankyou and in doing so reminding certain individuals that Patience is a virtue, if you havent got patience in this hobby, then i respectfully suggest you switch hobbies, because each and every one of us who make props, do runs or supply kit, also have families, jobs and in some cases our own business's, so when you are playing the keyboard rage, when you have sat down after your tea, relaxing after a hard days work, spare a thought that most of us are either in workshops, on the phone or addressing issues in order to ensure you get your prop or kit in the condition you expect. We do this as a hobby, a lot of us have the hobby to an almost professional standard, and thats where people blur the lines a little. There is nothing wrong with expecting an excellent prop, but some in my honest opinion need to evaluate their expectations in regards time scales.
Kurt you helped me realise a dream i formed as a 11yr old, and for that i sincerely thankyou and every other person who helped me get there along the way (as well as myself ha)
said with the utmost respect to all

I don't think RI is packing up. Kurt's just said that he is stepping back for a bit... and that he'll continue to sort out problems. One of the big problems with this run has been consistently pushed back delivery deadlines. And to be fair to Kurt, that's the factory's fault...and to be fair to the factory, they had some horrendous natural disasters in their region in the last 12 months. It's not like Kurt can just wander down the street and chase them up, they're half way around the world.

lovelyandy said:

So it doesn't sound like they're interested in maintaining a good reputation if they're shutting shop.

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I don't think that is the case. It seems like this is a step in the right direction, taking a step back and hopefully getting all current customers taken care of and perhaps reworking the methods in which these are ordered/sold now that most of the kinks have been worked out with the design of the items. Yes, they are top quality and the best currently available, but even the "retail" run has been rife with issues mostly of "new" people not knowing about past issues. It's not their job to slog through 8 months of posts on a Facebook group, and whenever anyone vented frustrations (like the website saying they would have a suit in 12 weeks for retail, and then that clearly not ending up being the case) they are kind of attacked by others in the group with the "it's pioneering work!" argument. I have seen it time and time again.

Yes, sure, 168 people knew that, but "new" people that saw that "please allow 12 weeks from time of order" line on the website, figured they would have a suit in 12 weeks and some of them had a bad experience. I realize that issue is not related to the original issue in this thread, but it's an example of other issues people are having, so you know there are others out there. New people that aren't a member of that Judge Dredd Facebook group would have no idea that the wheel was being reinvented, so how would they know of any delays based on what was on the website? People stick with what they are told up front, so if you correctly tell them what to expect things go much better.

Taking a step back seems like it's the high road to take as it shows that it's been realized there is a problem and they appear to be taking steps to fix it. This will take care of them "suffering fools" (OUCH!) as it was put on the public Judge Dredd group recently.

Also, it seems that Chris expressed his views in a totally civil manner here in this thread and in personal message and I would be glad to know of various issues before I ordered, like the possibility that if something was wrong that I might be ignored or that it might take months for me to get replacement parts due to factory issues if I was not being ignored. Notice, I said possibility. This did happen to Chris, but of course, the same thing doesn't happen to everyone.

As for the few comments I've seen here about Chris "raging" or being "irrational"... I don't know him well, but he always had very good Dredd information to give out when asked and built some very nice items (a med pouch with hinge comes to mind). Just trying to paint a fuller picture, I don't recall much raging or irrational behavior on the Facebook group.

I don't think someone has a less valid complaint just because they told people about it on a Facebook group and it apparently incitied some type of drama (I'm pretty sure I was on the group then and I don't even remember it). What generally happens as I have seen it several times is someone civily posts a complaint or warning for other members of the Facebook group (which has hundreds of memebers), then it digresses from there as various parties comment. It's a bit different having tens of people comment on something you posted where you can't control the conversation vs. actually messaging someone privately, which appears to be totally civil and legitimate.

If one stone causes this much of a ripple...

HeyLetsRock said:

As for the few comments I've seen here about Chris "raging" or being "irrational"... I don't know him well, but he always had very good Dredd information to give out when asked and built some very nice items (a med pouch with hinge comes to mind). Just trying to paint a fuller picture, I don't recall much raging or irrational behavior on the Facebook group.


If one stone causes this much of a ripple...

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with respect, this all happened last year (not sure when you joined) also there was another rant recently (during your sabatical) therefore you wouldnt see them, they were also removed by the group mods

however

i just think its terribly sad that the community as a whole rapidly moves to support threads bashing people attempting to make things right, who arent ducking or disappearing, rather than issuing offers to help and advise a guy who is pretty new to this and trying to help everyone.

and putting it simply, people weren't pressured into buying from him, there is at least two other vendors out there at double the price

neo2daz said:

with respect, this all happened last year (not sure when you joined) also there was another rant recently (during your sabatical) therefore you wouldnt see them, they were also removed by the group mods

however

i just think its terribly sad that the community as a whole rapidly moves to support threads bashing people attempting to make things right, who arent ducking or disappearing, rather than issuing offers to help and advise a guy who is pretty new to this and trying to help everyone.

and putting it simply, people weren't pressured into buying from him, there is at least two other vendors out there at double the price

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I applaud him for sticking around and stating he is pausing everything and attempting to fix things. I actually rarely see anyone support people that are having an issue with a product, they usually always back the vendor. This thread was just making people aware of an issue and then it was taken from there, that whole you can't control the conversation of something public thing. On the Facebook group everyone moves to back the vendor no matter what almost, so it's kind of refreshing to see how new outside the Facebook group eyes view it.

Though it doesn't have much to do with this customer service issue, I was around for the "holster incident" which rapidly escalated due to many hot-headed people. I actually recall Chris basically giving a big "peace out" to the group and removing himself, apparently disgusted with all the undue drama saying anything had caused. Like I said, you can't control the conversation of a thread on a group. If he was privately messaging people, I/we/the group would be unable to comment on that behavior, but I can speak for my view on what was publicly available to see on the group on this incident.

I'm not picking a "Team Chris" or "Team Kurt" here, I'm just putting myself in the shoes of a customer that understood the wait and reasons for the wait, finally got the items, had a problem, was told it would be fixed and then was ignored, seemingly left with a problem that was never going to be fixed. I'm also putting myself in the shoes of a business owner that just wants to have less headaches like this, in which case taking a step back and trying to figure out how to better do things is a great idea.