STAR WARS Rebels new animated series!

Does anyone know what the upper half of a butterfly art (seen above in the video's opening still-shot) on Rex's helmet and Kanan's eyeplate are about? I mean, I assume they are Sabine doodles but the fact that they are both butterflies on the face makes is seem like it has a related meaning.

They are Jaig Eyes, and in the EU they come from Mandalorian culture and are warrior symbols. Rex had them on his helmet as a reminder of who he was.
 
The Wook, joshvanrad, Jaitea, @NeilT, astroboy, Riceball, halliwax...

I won't turn this into one of my mini-essays. I think all of you have hit on how I feel in broad strokes. I like the underlying story (or stories, plural) of Clone Wars and Rebels. It's when we get to execution, specific characters, specific story arcs, and things like that that I feel balls have been dropped -- by one person, by multiple people, by the whole of LFL, whatever.

I have issues with the animation style of both series. The vehicles look gorgeous. The characters... less so. I know we have the capacity to make them look much more real than they do. Originally the character design for the Clone Wars series was based on that of the Tartovsky microseries (which still baffles me why it isn't also considered canon -- the whole of the latter series fits neatly into the Anakin montage in series 2 between when he gets knighted and the final siege that takes place mere days prior to ROTS). Bringing the anima angle in again, when the newly redone Space Battleship Yamato 2199 came out, not only was I blown away by the clean art and... not excessively anime-ish aesthetic, if that makes sense:

maxresdefault.jpg


...I was newly frustrated at the, IMO, overexaggerated character design in Clone Wars -- and now Rebels. Same problem I have with a lot of contemporary American animation. Transformers Prime versus G1? Ugh. New TMNT versus '80s? Ugh. Et cetera. It's like... "C'mon, guys -- we can do better than this..."

I also agree with the lack of longform storytelling. Yamato and Macross (or, as we got them here in the States, Star Blazers and Robotech) proved that kids could and would follow a story that took a hundred episodes to unfold. Having a single ongoing story, with each installment ending on a cliffhanger, would enable them to weave more complex stories and also maintain the flavor of the Saturday morning cinema serials that were the inspiration for Star Wars and Indiana Jones in the first place.

One problem that undermines both series is a lack of focus. Actually, I extend that to the Prequels as well. Much the same critique -- there's a good story there trying to get out, but it's hampered by creative sloppiness. The Original Trilogy (which was supposed to be the Original Hexalogy -- but that essay is elsewhere) was From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker. He and his journey were the primary focus. The Prequel Trilogy (also originally-originally supposed to be a hexalogy) were From the Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi. I think the whole saga suffered from the choice to make the ultimate six films we got for that whole era be focused on Anakin -- who was only ever supposed to be a supporting character, whose fall to the Dark Side wasn't supposed to be chronicled, and who is, frankly, too uncomplicated a character, from what's left after that, to be the central focus. So Clone Wars bounces between Obi-Wan stories, Anakin stories, and, later, Ahsoka stories. I have no problem with the occasional sidebar, but one character needs to be the main focus. And the whole Phantom-Menace-through-Clone-Wars-to-Revenge-of-the-Sith arc needed to have been focused around either Obi-Wan (my preference) or Anakin, and showing the actual growth and development of one of those as a character. What we got was... to static, for lack of a better term.

Now, with Rebels, Ezra seems to be the focal character, but it's... soft. I don't know how much is to the limitations they've forced on themselves with the largely standalone episodes and oversimplified dialogue, but they seem to come back to him as an afterthought, when they'd rather be telling the stories of the more interesting characters. Ezra's been following Anakin's arc. Don't know if he's going to stop at the brink and pull himself back, don't know if he's going to go Dark Side and be redeemed, don't know if he's going to go Dark Side and be destroyed, etc. And just as it was for Anakin, watching the main character we're supposed to be rooting for follow a path we can't get behind fails to hold our interest. I'd rather see what Hera's up to, or follow the exploits of Rex and Ahsoka, or follow Kanan's personal journey -- which has been far more compelling to me than Ezra's. Is he the actual central character?

So that's my takeaway for both series: Compelling story premise too-often hindered by lack of clear vision for the series and/or weak writing. I watch them for the good stuff, cringe through the lame stuff, and try to forgive them for it because I know there's going to be more good stuff, even if I have to sift through a lot of Jar-Jar or Savage Opress or heli-sabers or Darth Vader riding his TIE Fighter to get to it.
And Maul died in Phantom Menace, dammit.
:p

--Jonah
 
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The new TMNT in Nick designs are the least of my issues with THAT series. I can't wait for that one to end and someone with a more co hesive vision (and general understanding of what makes TMNT WORK as a whole property, not just mirage areas) take charge with the next series...


I agree on Ezra.

He really isn't all that interesting.

sabine is cool. Hera has potential. Kanan also has a back story just waiting to be explored. Even Zeb is fun.

Ezra is just kind of..there. probably because a disney series needs a kid to be the head. It feels like the Rebels guys don't even know what to do with him at times and some of his plot points feel like an after thought.

It would have been much more interesting with just Kanan as the head. and focusing on him and hera and their different ways of tackling situations. Jedi versus soldier. Ezra just kind of gets in the way.
 
My problem with Ezra I think is he's too much of a main focus. And I know, I know it's a kids show. But it always pull me out... The pervious season we have Ezra leading kanan on a few things. And then Ezra even gives advice to the rebels fleet leader.. His name escapes me, is it Sato? I think to myself.. Would I really listen to this 10 year old kid?... No

in the pervious seasons I forget how many times I say to myself. Kanan why are you as kings Ezra what to do next? Your his master! Your suppose to guide him not him guiding you.

now that Ezra is older, and kanan injured I can see this role happen.. But the pervious seasons when I would see this stuff I would hit a wall and remind myself... Yup kids show.

I also dont don't like how he's only when training with kanan for what... 2 years maybe? And he can open the sith holocron!? Give me a break... I think Ezra is way over powered, but I can understand where they are coming from.. Kids show.

I do hope Vader cuts his head off one day though... I'm dying to see Vader decapiate someone... I know I know...I'm sick lol
 
Oo, wait! What if Ezra's their back door to getting some version of the Galen Marek story of The Force Unleashed into the new canon -- maybe Vader will take him as his secret apprentice to overthrow the Emperor. It would all fit -- working with a blind Jedi to help get the Rebellion going and everything. ;)

--Jonah
 
Ok, so here we go:

First of all, I will preface this by saying I did not care for Clone Wars at all, so that has a huge impact on my views of season 2. In total, there was probably 10 episodes of CW that I genuinely liked. During the first season and the introduction-2-episode-movie of the second season of Rebels, I was seeing some old school Star Wars magic. I thought Dave Filoni had put in more substance than he had during CW. To me, CW was a very cheap brand of entertainment, and he did a lot of things just for flavor.

In season two of Rebels, it was like Dave went back to his toy box and just started pulling out nostalgia items and cramming them into Rebels, whether they fit or not. The old clones, Ashoka, and Darth Maul were the biggest issues I had. It was like he just can't let go of those characters so he has to figure out a way to fit them in, and he essentially said as much during one of their panels last year. I can handle Ashoka being in it if they want to do a little "last known surviving Jedi" storyline, but using her as a focal point throughout the season made it seem really cheap. I think Filoni learned a bit too much from GL, and like the prequels, sacrifices impactful substance for flavor.

Secondly, there are no extended themes or arcs in this show. I think they need to put more faith in today's children- that they can focus on a story that lasts for more than 22 minutes. The one off format doesn't provide enough time to develop the characters and relationships, so you end up with a character that is essentially the same from beginning of the series to the end. Ezra had a little bit of development throughout season 2, but the rest of the characters are essentially the same as they were in s1e1.

Elements that I didn't care for were the Mandalorian pilots, but that is completely personal. I could go on a rant about how the CW destroyed Mandalorians, but for now I'll just say... I don't like what the Mandalorians are in canon. The space whales were really really really stupid. That was taking concept art and hamfistedly smashing it into a show... because why? Because it was concept art once? The go-go-gadget-sabercopters were an absolute atrocity. Like I was saying before, it was something done completely in the name of style, foregoing any decent concept or substance. Another style over substance thing was Vader surfing on his fighter, for what reason other than Dave Filoni was playing with his Darth Vader action figure and thought it would be "totally badass" if Darth Vader was "just like totally standing on top of his fighter as he drifted into battle because that is totally ominous" would that exist? THAT IS CANON NOW! Darth Vader force-surfs on his TIE fighter.

And lastly, DARTH MAUL! Dave... let him go already, dude! He died in TPM and he never really had a personality or character traits to begin with. He was a lightsaber ballerina, and that's all he was ever supposed to be. Now, we have Maul die and come back and die and come back and die and come back, and die again... maybe? The CW made the robot-spider-legs Darth Maul arc stupid, and now Rebels just keeps slamming his stupid horned-head down our throats.

There were a handful of smaller elements that I didn't care for, but those were the big ones that rubbed me the wrong way throughout the season. It just started to lose it's ties to SW, and became some generic adventure show. Especially, that last episode. The last episode felt like some dungeon crawler movie... not Star Wars. In summation, I like to go to a galaxy far, far away, and it just didn't take me there.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Everything you wrote makes total sense. And yet the complaints you cited didn't bother me as much. Mostly, I attribute that to the fact that I tend to be apathetic towards animated shows...sometimes, disdainful. I only got through the first 17 eps of Season 1 of The Clone Wars cartoon before I lost interest--even though I thought it was pretty well done. And I went in to Rebels with rather low expectations, mainly because of my aversion to animated shows.

You see, I don't consider ANY of these animated shows canon. So I don't take them seriously, at all. I watched Rebels for the sole purpose of seeing how they handled Vader. I love Vader, and I was curious what creative direction they'd take him in, who would do the voice, and how fast would they have him walk. (lol...ok, j/k on the walking speed) I think they missed an opportunity here with Vader. He had a couple of cool moments, but frankly, they made the character very shallow, very 1-dimensional, IMO. I saw next to none of Vader's gravitas. Maybe they toned him down, for the kids' sake--but they didn't need to. If a kid can handle ANH and ESB, they can handle Vader doing his full-on Vader thing in a cartoon.

ps~Sabine=hot!
 
Thanks for taking the time to reply. Everything you wrote makes total sense. And yet the complaints you cited didn't bother me as much. Mostly, I attribute that to the fact that I tend to be apathetic towards animated shows...sometimes, disdainful. I only got through the first 17 eps of Season 1 of The Clone Wars cartoon before I lost interest--even though I thought it was pretty well done. And I went in to Rebels with rather low expectations, mainly because of my aversion to animated shows.

You see, I don't consider ANY of these animated shows canon. So I don't take them seriously, at all. I watched Rebels for the sole purpose of seeing how they handled Vader. I love Vader, and I was curious what creative direction they'd take him in, who would do the voice, and how fast would they have him walk. (lol...ok, j/k on the walking speed) I think they missed an opportunity here with Vader. He had a couple of cool moments, but frankly, they made the character very shallow, very 1-dimensional, IMO. I saw next to none of Vader's gravitas. Maybe they toned him down, for the kids' sake--but they didn't need to. If a kid can handle ANH and ESB, they can handle Vader doing his full-on Vader thing in a cartoon.

ps~Sabine=hot!

i thought they pulled off vader pretty good in the siege of lothal. i liked the part " your master has deceived you..into believing you can become a jedi" with vader forcing the saber closer and closer to ezra's neck.

i also loved the saber fight between kanan and vader. kanan having two hands on his saber and really showing he's using all his strength to lock blades with vader. while vader is holding kanan right where he is with only 1 hand on his saber.
 
this looks good! how does everyone else feel that the mandilorians end up working for the empire? i like the newer armor and the new design jetpacks! i like them being the empires "super commandos"

Takes me back to 1980. :) The original concept was for a squad of six white-armored Imperial "super commandos" from the Mandalore system to be who were tracking Our Heroes. That's what all the initial concept art was for. Then the concepts got split. The "elite Imperial troops" became the Snowtroopers, and the Mandalorian Supercommandos got compressed into a single bounty hunter.

And in early 1983 -- a bit before ROTJ came out -- the Marvel Star Wars comic took us to Mandalore for a couple issues and showed us a planet under Imperial occupation, with one of the Clone Wars era Protector leading a guerrilla resistance.

The end of the Mandalore episodes in Clone Wars showed us the Republic moving in to occupy in the wake of all of Vizsla's and Maul's shenanigans. I imagine they stayed after the declaration of Empire. So all this feels nicely familiar to me.

--Jonah
 
Takes me back to 1980. :) The original concept was for a squad of six white-armored Imperial "super commandos" from the Mandalore system to be who were tracking Our Heroes. That's what all the initial concept art was for. Then the concepts got split. The "elite Imperial troops" became the Snowtroopers, and the Mandalorian Supercommandos got compressed into a single bounty hunter.

And in early 1983 -- a bit before ROTJ came out -- the Marvel Star Wars comic took us to Mandalore for a couple issues and showed us a planet under Imperial occupation, with one of the Clone Wars era Protector leading a guerrilla resistance.

The end of the Mandalore episodes in Clone Wars showed us the Republic moving in to occupy in the wake of all of Vizsla's and Maul's shenanigans. I imagine they stayed after the declaration of Empire. So all this feels nicely familiar to me.

--Jonah

i never knew that!! thanks for sharing that with us! when watching the clone wars i was a little upset on the whole mandalorian thing... i always imagined boba fetts armor was scavenged from ancient mandalorian battle fields. hence the different colors, all the damage and what not... then we learned that Jango wasn't even a mando soldier and he just stole the armor...i thought all the clone wars stuff devalued fetts unique armor and heritage. even still to this day, is the armor fett wears suppose to be Jangos? the dent in fetts helmet is that the dent from when Jango hits his head on the door on slave 1?

i always thought of his armor being rare since we dont see any other civilian with anything close to matching his.(in the OT and PT) now we have learned the Mando's are still around and the empire knows of them very well. idk its a touchy subject for me lol
 
i never knew that!! thanks for sharing that with us! when watching the clone wars i was a little upset on the whole mandalorian thing... i always imagined boba fetts armor was scavenged from ancient mandalorian battle fields. hence the different colors, all the damage and what not... then we learned that Jango wasn't even a mando soldier and he just stole the armor...i thought all the clone wars stuff devalued fetts unique armor and heritage. even still to this day, is the armor fett wears suppose to be Jangos? the dent in fetts helmet is that the dent from when Jango hits his head on the door on slave 1?

i always thought of his armor being rare since we dont see any other civilian with anything close to matching his.(in the OT and PT) now we have learned the Mando's are still around and the empire knows of them very well. idk its a touchy subject for me lol

Ahhh... Remember. "A certain point of view." The New Mandalorians disavowed their warrior past, and would obviously distance themselves from anyone who still practiced those ways. We don't know how much back story is still considered valid by the Story Group, but unless and until it's overwritten, Jango wasn't Mandalorian -- in the sense that he wasn't from Mandalore. He was from Concord Dawn, a Mandalorian-conquered world in the Mandalore sector, but not Mandalore itself. Remember Obi-Wan's disguise in Clone Wars: "Rako Hardeen, the Marksman from Concord Dawn", and his concept-Boba-Fett armor that he wore after "escaping" from prison. We've now also seen Fenn Rau "the Protector of Concord Dawn". In the EU, Jango's dad, a couple decades before the Clone Wars, was "the Journeyman Protector of Concord Dawn".

I imagine that, just as on Mandalore itself, the New Mandalorian philosophy wasn't universally accepted. And, out there in the sticks, it was a lot less likely to be rigidly enforced than the capitol of the sector. If dissidents on the trojan planet next door to Mandalore could manufacture their own supercommando armor, I'm betting someone wanting it out on Concord Dawn would have even less trouble.

And Boba's and Jango's armor are completely different. Jeremy Bulloch was 6'1" at the time of ESB. Tem Morrison was 5'7" at the time of AOTC. The helmets side-by-side are so different it isn't even funny. Then there are all the details. Boba's helmet has a crater taken out of the forehead. I imagine that one was scavenged from a fallen warrior, as that kind of impact would snap your neck, no matter how good the armor is. Jango's dent is a longitudinal crease up near the crown -- actually pretty similar to the gouge near the crown of the first pre-production Boba helmet (pre iconic dent). Jango's back plate and collar armor have a gap between them the same as between the rest of the front-torso plates. Boba's overlap and are locked together with nuts. Jango's groin armor cuts off to the sides at about the front midpoint of the thighs. Boba's goes all the way around to the sides, to overlap and lock together with an armor band that goes all the way around the back of the hips. And Boba's shoulders and knees are an intentional contrast color. The gauntlets and rocketpack are definitely interchangeable accessories, though. I'm not going to speculate on the lack of upkeep, though. Old reason was that he was no longer part of that organization, so didn't care about touching up the paint job and just let it go. New reason hasn't been shown yet.

The commonality of everything waxes and wanes in the Star Wars universe. Jedi, Sith, Mandos... They're the three edges of the conflict over the millennia.

--Jonah
 
Ahhh... Remember. "A certain point of view." The New Mandalorians disavowed their warrior past, and would obviously distance themselves from anyone who still practiced those ways. We don't know how much back story is still considered valid by the Story Group, but unless and until it's overwritten, Jango wasn't Mandalorian -- in the sense that he wasn't from Mandalore. He was from Concord Dawn, a Mandalorian-conquered world in the Mandalore sector, but not Mandalore itself. Remember Obi-Wan's disguise in Clone Wars: "Rako Hardeen, the Marksman from Concord Dawn", and his concept-Boba-Fett armor that he wore after "escaping" from prison. We've now also seen Fenn Rau "the Protector of Concord Dawn". In the EU, Jango's dad, a couple decades before the Clone Wars, was "the Journeyman Protector of Concord Dawn".

I imagine that, just as on Mandalore itself, the New Mandalorian philosophy wasn't universally accepted. And, out there in the sticks, it was a lot less likely to be rigidly enforced than the capitol of the sector. If dissidents on the trojan planet next door to Mandalore could manufacture their own supercommando armor, I'm betting someone wanting it out on Concord Dawn would have even less trouble.

And Boba's and Jango's armor are completely different. Jeremy Bulloch was 6'1" at the time of ESB. Tem Morrison was 5'7" at the time of AOTC. The helmets side-by-side are so different it isn't even funny. Then there are all the details. Boba's helmet has a crater taken out of the forehead. I imagine that one was scavenged from a fallen warrior, as that kind of impact would snap your neck, no matter how good the armor is. Jango's dent is a longitudinal crease up near the crown -- actually pretty similar to the gouge near the crown of the first pre-production Boba helmet (pre iconic dent). Jango's back plate and collar armor have a gap between them the same as between the rest of the front-torso plates. Boba's overlap and are locked together with nuts. Jango's groin armor cuts off to the sides at about the front midpoint of the thighs. Boba's goes all the way around to the sides, to overlap and lock together with an armor band that goes all the way around the back of the hips. And Boba's shoulders and knees are an intentional contrast color. The gauntlets and rocketpack are definitely interchangeable accessories, though. I'm not going to speculate on the lack of upkeep, though. Old reason was that he was no longer part of that organization, so didn't care about touching up the paint job and just let it go. New reason hasn't been shown yet.

The commonality of everything waxes and wanes in the Star Wars universe. Jedi, Sith, Mandos... They're the three edges of the conflict over the millennia.

--Jonah

thats a lot of great info! thanks jonah for taking the time and explaining it. i didnt know all of that. i have to agree with you on the dent on fetts head. i like the idea that his armor was scavenged :thumbsup
 
thats a lot of great info! thanks jonah for taking the time and explaining it. i didnt know all of that. i have to agree with you on the dent on fetts head. i like the idea that his armor was scavenged :thumbsup

I hate being in this indeterminate period, when we don't know what of the old EU will still be valid. But sometime after his less-than-stellar exploits that we see in Clone Wars, Boba makes his way to his dad's original homeworld, to try his hand at the "family business" and joins the Protectors. Most of them died in the Clone Wars, and he was probably issued the best fit from one of the fallen (there's a picture of him right around then and his helmet already has the dent -- that headshot is probably what killed the former owner). Shockingly, growing up the way he did on Kamino didn't really prepare him for living in society, and that only lasted a few years before he abandoned that life and became a solo bounty hunter, since bitter experience had taught him he couldn't be around anyone else. Except his dad, and his dad was dead.

So far nothing's contradicted that. I hope that's the story for him they keep. *shrug*

--Jonah
 
Remember that the new comics are canon as well.

Kanan's back story is explored in depth in his comic run. Also we see Fett in the Vader comics being a super hard ass as well.
 
Hi Gang,

I just wanted to expand a touch on my earlier post regarding my disappointment with Rebels.

Last night I watched the final 4 episodes of season 5 of the clone wars (for all intent and purposes, these were the final episodes of the series).

For any of you who gave up on the series, I urge you to give this story a chance. It's a very simple story about a murder in the Jedi temple. It's essentially a hitchcock styled murder mystery. It has very little to do with the clone wars. Except that it probably does a better job of illustrating those times than all of the prequels together.

the agendas of Tarkin and Palpatine are perfectly illustrated, as is the arrogance of the Jedi.The score and design are amazing. There's a ton of new designs that arrived just for these episodes Background ships, new aliens, different clone variants...the works. Heck, we even see the Imperial Guard in one moment. The only time in the entire series. It also perfectly illustrated the growing military power of the clones into what we will know as the stormtroopers. And mostly, it draws Anakin WAY better than the movies ever did. You really do see why he's at odds with the Jedi. And it has NOTHING to do with Padme.

And Ashoka is friggin' perfect.

It's the kind of long game storytelling that I had hoped for with Rebels. You can also see why I often criticize rebels for appearing low budget. They simply invested so much into the clone wars. It's really astonishing.

In all honesty, perhaps if they started doing more serialized stories on rebels, it would fix 75% of my issues. And I have the feeling as we go alone, the stakes will raise.
 
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Hi Gang,

I just wanted to expand a touch on my earlier post regarding my disappointment with Rebels.

Last night I watched the final 4 episodes of season 5 of the clone wars (for all intent and purposes, these were the final episodes of the series).

For any of you who gave up on the series, I urge you to give this story a chance. It's a very simple story about a murder in the Jedi temple. It's essentially a hitchcock styled murder mystery. It has very little to do with the clone wars. Except that it probably does a better job of illustrating those times than all of the prequels together.

the agendas of Tarkin and Palpatine are perfectly illustrated, as is the arrogance of the Jedi.The score and design are amazing. There's a ton of new designs that rrived just for these episodes Background ships, new aliens, different clone variants...the works. It also perfectly illustrated the growing military power of the clones into what we will know as the stormtroopers. And mostly, it draws Anakin WAY better than the movies ever did. You really do see why he's at odds with the Jedi. And it has NOTHING to do with Padme.

And Ashoka is friggin' perfect.

It's the kind of long game storytelling that I had hoped for with Rebels. You can also see why I often criticize rebels for appearing low budget. They simply invested so much into the clone wars. It's really astonishing.

In all honesty, perhaps if they started doing more serialized stories on rebels, it would fix 75% of my issues. And I have the feeling as we go alone, the stakes will raise.

Bingo.

Clone Wars just seemed more in depth and detailed and bigger scope/budget.

Rebels seems more sitcom-y.

add to that my previous problems with the series, and rebels is less interesting.
 
It seems like some accuse Rebels of not having story arcs, which is just not true. It's true that it does not follow the 4 episode mini series theme that CW did in the later seasons, but that does not mean it does not have story arcs. I actually disliked the 4 episode story telling device. That meant in a season of 20 episodes, you only got 5 stories a season. In some cases, I felt that the story was dragged out in an attempt to fill four episodes. I don't have a problem with three or four part episode stories, just mix them in with single or double episode stores,
 
It seems like some accuse Rebels of not having story arcs, which is just not true. It's true that it does not follow the 4 episode mini series theme that CW did in the later seasons, but that does not mean it does not have story arcs. I actually disliked the 4 episode story telling device. That meant in a season of 20 episodes, you only got 5 stories a season. In some cases, I felt that the story was dragged out in an attempt to fill four episodes. I don't have a problem with three or four part episode stories, just mix them in with single or double episode stores,

i was not a fan of continuous arks as well. if they stuck to 1 arch per season i think that would have been fine.
 
Bingo.

Clone Wars just seemed more in depth and detailed and bigger scope/budget.

Rebels seems more sitcom-y.

add to that my previous problems with the series, and rebels is less interesting.
I don't disagree but, to be fair, Clone Wars worked through the first two seasons before it really "found it's feet" and got good.

The difference, and the problem in my opinion, is that Clone Wars was ultimately under George Lucas' control, and I think he used it to explore what the Clone Wars should have been in the Prequel Trilogy movies. But Rebels is under Disney's control, and it seems clear that they want it to remain not much more than a "kid's show" and not delve into more mature issues the way Clone Wars did in it's later seasons.
 
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