More details on the Vader ROTJ saber - Please archive

That would explain the cut on the bottom shell just above the grips...
Maybe the real Graflex bottom is inside the tube where the grips are on..Does anyone know if there are any types of metal tubes out there which can accomodate a 1.5" tube inside it??

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Anakin Starkiller wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
Just to add my .02 here

I have to say that I think the Bottom of the DV ROTJ saber is not from a real graflex. When I saw the saber at MOM, it clearly looked like aluminum to me. Now some have said that it appears dull because of glue. But in person it is clear that that is not the case. The bottom tube is ceratinly a different metal. If you want proof, look at the wholes between the grips. If this was a graflex bottom, the inside of the holes would be brass colored. But when you look at the wholes they appear the same color as the tube outer tube itself. Also, when I saw the saber at MOM, and looked at the wholes up close, they appeared to go deeper then would be possible on a graflex flash, meaning the aluminum tube that serves as a bottom for the saber might have a greater wall thinkness then a graflex.

My theory is that the bottom portion of this saber was made from a simple peice of pluming conduit, that had the bottom cut with a pipe cutter, which gives it the roled look, and a washer was placed in the bottom, glued in, and painted silver.

Dan Stokes
DDStokes@aol.com

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I've never seen any aluminum plumbing pipe before, only copper or chrome plated brass (used for downpipes that might be seen). If plumbers did use it, it would make it a whole lot easier to buy. (I have to order mine from an online aircraft supplier - wicksaircraft.com).

The plate in the bottom is brass (you can see the bare metal in some of the photos in this thread), which rules out the kind of washer you'd find in a hardware store. Also, the hole in a washer would be too big for a 3/16" rivet (they come in standard size diameters - 1/8" and 3/16") to attach into securely. So it's more likely they cut a round disc out of some brass sheet and used that - if it's not the original Graflex endcap with goop on it.

Sadly, the clearest photos we have of the holes in the bottom tube are all after the holes had been filled with some white material, so we can't see what color they are - but, if the bottom tube is something they used just on the Vader ROTJ saber, it leaves the big question of why did they drill out the holes to line up with Luke's ESB lightsaber?


Steve

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fried mon calamari wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

---8< -- Snip -- >8---

Glue under the catch-
The arrow on the left points to what I think is a clear shot of something pressed up against the shroud and the catch.It looks like it follows the near edge of the catch a ways. You can see the reflection of the underside on the right and it looks different from the stuff up front


You can see it in this shot too. Here it looks like the stuff might even go up the side of the catch a little bit too ( which is also visible in the shot above )

---8< -- Snip -- >8---

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What you're pointing out there is the reflection of the underside of the ball catch.

The bottom of the ball catch is made for a flat surface and because it's mounted on a tube, there will naturally be a gap at the sides where the tube curves away.

If you look at the right end of the ball catch, you can see the reflection curving up towards the center of the catch where it touches again.

Steve

Back to the grips...

The grips can't be metal, because the following image from the "Star Wars to Indiana Jones" book shows that part of the grip has split off.

Take a look at the top most grip, at the right hand side (nearest the activator box) and you'll see for yourself...




You wouldn't be able to get aluminum or any other metal to break like that, but PVC or resin could.

Of circumstantial interest, the exposed edge is black, rather than silver, but even if it was white resin, it could've been retouched with black paint.

D-Ring.. d-ring, d-ring d'bells
The above photo also shows pitting on the D-ring, which makes me change my mind to thinking it was copper to now believing it's rusty.

In the photo that CRProps took (PB100095b), you can also see a few patches of reflective silver (possibly chrome plating) remaining.




Steve

The tubing I was refering to is electrical conduit. You can find it in any large hardware store. Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

Dan Stokes

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Anakin Starkiller wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
The tubing I was refering to is electrical conduit. You can find it in any large hardware store. Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

Dan Stokes
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Okay, you mean galvanized steel then.

1.5" diameter steel conduit is very heavy, even for a small section like that. It's a b*stard to cut too - I had to use an angle grinder.

Steve

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steveday72 wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
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fried mon calamari wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

---8< -- Snip -- >8---

Glue under the catch-
The arrow on the left points to what I think is a clear shot of something pressed up against the shroud and the catch.It looks like it follows the near edge of the catch a ways. You can see the reflection of the underside on the right and it looks different from the stuff up front


You can see it in this shot too. Here it looks like the stuff might even go up the side of the catch a little bit too ( which is also visible in the shot above )

---8< -- Snip -- >8---

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What you're pointing out there is the reflection of the underside of the ball catch.

The bottom of the ball catch is made for a flat surface and because it's mounted on a tube, there will naturally be a gap at the sides where the tube curves away.

If you look at the right end of the ball catch, you can see the reflection curving up towards the center of the catch where it touches again.

Steve
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I agree with you on the reflection on the right hand side ( actually, I said that in the post you quoted too)

I have to respectfully disagree with you as far as the front goes. What's holding the back of the catch up is the area right behind the screw hole, Since the front of the catch is cut off, the sides up front would be able to set against the tube as the cross support of the catch is gone. Poor illustration follows



( unfortunately, I don't have the computer skills to illustrate it as well as you could!)


If the blob against the shroud were a reflection, the far side should continue straight back instead of curving back down to follow the shape of the top of the catch. ( far left arrow)

I know, I'm being hard-headed, but I really think there's something there, not an illusion

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steveday72 wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

Okay, you mean galvanized steel then.

1.5" diameter steel conduit is very heavy, even for a small section like that. It's a b*stard to cut too - I had to use an angle grinder.

Steve

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He might mean that galvanized "fence post" stuff that is alot thinner and lighter than the thick, heavy plumbing steel pipe?

I'm not talking about galvenised steel. I'm talking about electrical conduit. If you look in the electrical department of a Home depot or Lowes it is there. There is metal and PCV, I'm talking abotu metal conduit. It's much thinner and lighter then galvenized steel, and it does not rust like steel does. It is made thinner because all it has to do is hold wires, not support the pressure of water.

The standard size that wold be apropriate for this is slighly larger OD then 1.5in, and the wall thickness is slightly larger then a graflex (but not nearly as wide as galvinzed pipe) I believe this is why the opening on the black midband is larger on the back, then the front. While it does oxidize, it does not rust like steel does.

It's very cheap, readily available anywhere, and perfect for the bottom of a DV ROTJ saber. It's quite easy to cut with a pipe cutter.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Dan Stokes

yeah, I know what your talking about...I attempted a hardware trooper blaster a couple of years ago using the electrical conduit...
(Still havent finished it though )

They usually come in lengths of like 6 or 7 feet (I think).

How naive of me...I thought this thread would have easily run its course by now!


My question is simply this: What EXACTLY have we pinpointed in this thread as "certainties?"
It seems to me that every aspect of the saber has some dissenting opinions - which is very strange, when you think about something. This is the most photographed lightsaber prop of all time, and we still can't find all the answers!

Never trust any prop over 20!


Dan

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Anakin Starkiller wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
I'm not talking about galvenised steel. I'm talking about electrical conduit. If you look in the electrical department of a Home depot or Lowes it is there. There is metal and PCV, I'm talking abotu metal conduit. It's much thinner and lighter then galvenized steel, and it does not rust like steel does. It is made thinner because all it has to do is hold wires, not support the pressure of water.

The standard size that wold be apropriate for this is slighly larger OD then 1.5in, and the wall thickness is slightly larger then a graflex (but not nearly as wide as galvinzed pipe) I believe this is why the opening on the black midband is larger on the back, then the front. While it does oxidize, it does not rust like steel does.

It's very cheap, readily available anywhere, and perfect for the bottom of a DV ROTJ saber. It's quite easy to cut with a pipe cutter.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Dan Stokes
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Sorry Dan, I don't know what kind of conduit you're thinking of, even though I used to be an electrician (once upon a time), so I am familiar with the types of conduit available - at least the kinds in the UK.

I only know of three kinds of round metal electrical conduit. There's steel that is coated with some kind of black enamel, aluminum flexible spiral/coil which used to be sold under the brand name "Kopex", and the galvanized steel type that I mentioned earlier.

I've seen the aluminum fencing posts that fried mon calamari mentioned (they make some nifty semi-spherical endcaps too that might come in handy for a thermal detonator, but I need to check the size of the prop). That stuff measures a little over 1.6", so is about 3/16 too big to fit under the mid-band of the ROTJ lightsaber.

A couple of months back, I went all around my local Home Depot, Ace Hardware and Lowes stores, looking for some metal tubing that was exactly 1.5" in diameter. The only metal tubing I could find in that size was the heavy galvanized steel electrical conduit - everything else was over 1.6" (I took my digital calipers with me to find what I needed).


Steve

I actually made a comment about that small hole in the doorlatch a while back. Was glanced over.

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Anakin Starkiller wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
I'm not talking about galvenised steel. I'm talking about electrical conduit... </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

I know just the stuff, and it is basically the same thing I mentioned, too. Pretty easy to cut with one of those sinch-tight rotating pipe cutters, too! You may be right!

The brass catch I used to have (can't find it now) looked like the one Kenny posted. I could swear it had a little hole in the center already - which is why I never questioned the little hole before.

I see nothing showing the rear (grip area) is a larger diameter than the "clamp" or front part.
DS- I think you're seeing a highlight off that cut groove or something, plus there's a fair size gap between the grips and "clamp".

The bottom piece, Graflex or not, had a bottom to begin with because the metal circle is riveted to something- pressing it down in the center.
It still looks like a Graflex bottom to me. I doubt the difference between 20 year old aluminum "conduit" and a 20 year old plated flash tube would even be that noticable (half covered with grips and lots of grime on the rest). Since the top half is a bit shiner I think it's common to at first think the bottom is a different material, but I see no proof that it is.

Where's the proof for the bottom cap being brass? The one photo? The color is hardly correct on it and other areas look rusty in the same pic- It can't go both ways, brass doesn't rust.

To clarify - IF the bottom piece was a washer the center hole was not used. It just would have been a handy metal circle. They would have drilled two new holes.
I tend to lean towards sheet metal, but I did find a pretty thin metal washer I had laying around in my parts box for several years as a possible part for this saber. It seems like it would work pretty well too.

Im sorry but I clearly see a differance in plane level between the clamp and the tubing below...

I outlined the the step where the bottom tube is higher than the clamp...I also outlined in red the end of the grip showing that it is sitting higher than the clamp base..

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lonepigeon wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
The brass catch I used to have (can't find it now) looked like the one Kenny posted. I could swear it had a little hole in the center already - which is why I never questioned the little hole before.

I see nothing showing the rear (grip area) is a larger diameter than the "clamp" or front part.
DS- I think you're seeing a highlight off that cut groove or something, plus there's a fair size gap between the grips and "clamp".

The bottom piece, Graflex or not, had a bottom to begin with because the metal circle is riveted to something- pressing it down in the center.
It still looks like a Graflex bottom to me. I doubt the difference between 20 year old aluminum "conduit" and a 20 year old plated flash tube would even be that noticable (half covered with grips and lots of grime on the rest). Since the top half is a bit shiner I think it's common to at first think the bottom is a different material, but I see no proof that it is.

Where's the proof for the bottom cap being brass? The one photo? The color is hardly correct on it and other areas look rusty in the same pic- It can't go both ways, brass doesn't rust.

To clarify - IF the bottom piece was a washer the center hole was not used. It just would have been a handy metal circle. They would have drilled two new holes.
I tend to lean towards sheet metal, but I did find a pretty thin metal washer I had laying around in my parts box for several years as a possible part for this saber. It seems like it would work pretty well too.


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Well, the proof of the pie is in the eating...



The One photo? ...well, I'd rather trust a clear, well focused and well lit single photo than a dozen obliquely angled blurred ones of the same area. If you prefer to squint and see clouds that look like elephants, that's entirely up to you.

No, brass doesn't rust, which is why we can't see any on the bottom plate. There is rust on the D-ring though, as I mentioned earlier, but that's a seperate component.

Chris, do you have any proof that supports your theory of the bottom being a steel washer?

mmmm .... Pie!

Steve

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Johnleprekan wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
I actually made a comment about that small hole in the doorlatch a while back. Was glanced over.
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Actually John, I pointed that out right after we got the enlarged pic of it put up.

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Killdozer wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>


But the "washer" isn't on-centre either... and it's so chewed up around the edges, that it's center hole (if there is one) might be anywhere.

Personally, I don't think it's a washer-- I have yet to come across one that would be thin enough to bend so much in a concave way (not seen in this pic).
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EDIT - Rephrased:

I read through this quickly before my first reply.

My question is this: For Chris and those who hold to the "washer theory," what would have been there for the Linhof D-ring bracket to adhere to when riveted? (This is of particular importance when it comes to the rivet nearest the center).

Washers have holes. Where there's a hole, there's nothing to cling to, as in this instance...right?

It would have to be one tiny hole to matter, right?
Either that, or if there is some filler crap in the very bottom of the tube, that's what it ended up getting riveted to in the absence of metal (as a washer hole).

I'm leaning heavily on the assertion that it's painted grey, as some of you have pointed out.


Great job everyone, especially with these detailed diagrams!!!

BTW, I'm asking for this thread to be archived Sunday evening, so if you have anything left to add, give it your best shot soon!

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Brevin Din-Shay wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

Yes, I DO BELIEVE that there is a screw there!
Why? 2 reasons:
First of all, in the above photo, I do see what I first thought was a scratch, but now completely believe to be a small slotted screw.

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Strange because that's what I saw. I was pointing out that it wasn't a screw, that is was a hole with a portion that made it look like a screw. I apologize if you posted elsewhere that says it is a hole and not a screw.