Origins of the AA/SDS Armor

Originally posted by Lear60man@Nov 8 2005, 12:09 PM

Little ol' Bounty Hunter, I would like to remind you of your first post in this thread "Let's keep things civil." I will try to address you questions in order:


-You responded;I care. I dislike Recasters. And this isnt a Recasting 101 class, so -dont tell me that all the other armorers are just recasters, you know what I'm -saying. GF and Ginos all have private artistic reproductions parts in the armor. So -hence, there are still differences between originals, so if those are still present with -AA, thiere is a problem
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My apologies my friend. I should of made it more clear is was a comment to all reading. You know when we post about recasting, someone always throws there hat into the mix about "well all you guys are just recasters anyway in the long run"

It is obvious you don't like recasters.  'So dont tell me that all the other armorers are just recasters'.  Where did I even imply that????? TE-GF-Gino etc are all talented in their own rights and deserve to retain their hard work.  I have personal professional experience of what it feels like to have a legally licenced replica that I worked hard on get recast and sold in every Target and K-mart. Are you a professional propmaster? Do you stand to loose your income from recasters? I'm against recasting primarily on principle, secondly on legality.
That is your opinion, AND I RESPECT IT. Let me tell you a little story about molds, originals etc.  When I worked at Icons back in 95 we got a full screen used Terminator from Cameron himself to take molds off. Part of the resin inner hip was broken and held in place with chrome automotive tape.
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In all honestly, no, I am not a professional. I haven't had the time and vast experience in the field. BUT. I have worked at a smaller company here in my city for some time now and build cast and form mold and such. I do have talent, but my passion is music, and not prop building. So in all respect, just because its not my profession, doesn't mean I'm not good at it. I have the uttermost respect for you and all the people in your profession. I DO understand your position and highly respect you. But please, try and respect me, because I have done this as well.

The quest, it seems to be, more along the lines of who did they recast it from and lets disprove the originality claim. Kind of a shame really.  Most here can look at the AA and instantly tell the things that are not screen accurate.  I look at my TE next to a GF, and this is my OPINION again, feel that the TE is more true to film. 

So in closing, I want to contribute in a positive fashion. If someone in the L.A. area gets an AA suit I would be more than happy to take side by side pics

Lets recap: Recasting BAD, sharing information and positivly promoting opinions without flaming GOOD
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Its more of the fact to me, that I want to prove these are real, but with all the "accusations" that they are recast, I want to prove/debunk those as well. I'm trying to be totally unbiased about it. I have my convictions and everyone else has there convictions, but we have to put those aside. We all have to be opened minded and we have to look at all aspects.

So Lear, I apologize if my post seemed derrogatory towards you. It was not intended to, so I apologize my friend. Just was trying to adress the board ingeneral.
 
Here is a suggestion.

It appears that there may be some apprehension on the part of new AA armor owners to provide pics due to their fear of being chastised by certain individuals.

Why doesn't someone with a set of AA armor take the pics requested, and then forward them to someone willing to make the comparisons. That way the AA armor owner can remain anonymous and we can make some actual progress in this thread.

I'm sure there are a lot of people willing to make the comparisons if they could be provided with the source material.
 
Originally posted by GINO@Nov 8 2005, 08:02 PM
It appears that there may be some apprehension on the part of new AA armor owners to provide pics due to their fear of being chastised by certain individuals.

Why doesn't someone with a set of AA armor take the pics requested, and then forward them to someone willing to make the comparisons. That way the AA armor owner can remain anonymous and we can make some actual progress in this thread.

I'm sure there are a lot of people willing to make the comparisons if they could be provided with the source material.
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Yeah. Might be the only way we see something.

I'll offer myself up as the middleman and I can offer complete confidentiality if it's wanted.

PM me of you're willing to send the pictures that were requested ("A straight on clear shot of the ab cover plate, knee belt, sniper knee, canister, and shoulder connectors would be quite nice") as well as some nice high resolution close-ups of, well, of just about everything. The more the better.

If some brave sole offers their suit up for scrutiny I can forward the images on to anyone who thinks they might be up to the task of photo comparisons. I'd offer myself but I won't have the time.

Cheers.
TJ
 
Perhaps it isn't FEAR at all Gino, perhaps they just don't care to participate in something that doesn't benefit them personally. :)
 
While I seem to be getting away with making the rules here (which totally RAWKS BTW.) I would also like to discourage baiting. Thank you for listening. :)
 
Thanks LOBH. I do agree that whoever ends up buying an AA suit is going to be hesitant to having it put to such scrunity. I do see the irony of AA putting out a suit that they originally made only to have the prop community blast them for possibly recasting their original work.
Chris
 
Originally posted by vaderdarth@Nov 8 2005, 09:54 AM
But Flynn,  you keep ignorning that "some" of the moulds MAY be of original origin.......
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No actually I'm not ignoring that this could be the case, if you read any of my post you will see that I am specific that "some" of the parts appear to be recast not all... I also have not dismissed the possibility that AA recast a real ROTJ suit that he gained access to... Also I have not dismissed the possiblility that AA has original suit molds, even though every picture of his armor that I have seen has shown very few ANH tell tales, like I would expect from the real deal molds... But, if any of the above are true then it is in total contrast to this quote from AA
All the moulds are there, but some have degraded with porosity in the surfaces and broken down with the pressure of moulding.- typically at the tops of the thighs. The early mouldings were crisp, but as we got nearer the 50 sets that we made for ANH, they were getting a little ropey. I have dug out problems like this and rebuilt the surface with modern durable mouldmaking materials.
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I don't see the word "some" or "most" there is a clear mention of "ALL" the moulds, and that is the question of this thread, has the AA suit been formed from all these molds or is there another source...

The simple fact that if you remove the very easy to identify ROTJ parts with the overlap, from the suit you are left with only a limited amount of parts that could possibly be from the original ANH molds unless they were redone ROTJ style...

Remove the chest with the ROTJ signature bottom roll, remove the ab plate/groin with the signature GF original sculpt and you are left with the shoulder bells, back, shoulder straps, butt, belt, knees, hands and drop boxes...

I believe most people saw the photo of AA with the black shoulder bell long ago, so the origins of that might be explained... It appears AA has claimed to have rebuilt some of the molds that were "soft" wood like the belt and possibly one knee and or drop boxes?

So now we are down to just the back, butt, one knee, hands and shoulder straps that IMO have any chance of any direct link to "original" except for the fact AA has his hands in the business...

And all these people saying just email him and ask him well here is the email just copy and paste, it should be interesting to read his response if any...

Andrew in regards to your new Stormtrooper armor there is a debate into it's origins, could you be specific and detail the origins of the moulds used to for each specific part, below are some example type answers that would greatly clarify the debate, short sweet and to the point...

original '77 ANH moulds - newly restored '77 moulds -  newly created moulds

Chest
Chest-Back straps
Ab plate/groin
Thighs
Calves
Belt
Drop boxes
Left knee
Right knee
Butt/lower back
Upper back
Shoulder bells
Bicept
Forearm
Hands
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Originally posted by Lear60man@Nov 8 2005, 10:51 PM
I do see the irony of AA putting out a suit that they originally made only to have the prop community blast them for possibly recasting their original work.
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I completely understand how people might take this point of view (it seems logical at the outset) but if he is recasting, the issue isn't that he is recasting HIS original work, the issue is that he is allegedly recasting other people's work.

Think about it. The ROTJ armor was based on modified, reworked ANH armor. We're one step removed from the original.

The TE suit was based on an incomplete ROTJ suit. We're two steps removed for the original.

Some of the blanks on TE's armor were filled in from a tour suit which TE managed to get access to. Three steps.

Not sure who scratch built the sniper knee and knee belts, but there's your step four away from the original.

The belly plate detail, shoulder connectors, ab plate, and canister were all scratch built by GF and TE uses them on his armor. Which brings us up to five steps removed form AA's original work.

It's not really as cut-and-dried as AA taking back his own work, if that is indeed what he did on any of the components of his armor. If he has original molds and that is what he is using then he has a right (legalities notwithstanding -- let's not even go there) to produce those. But if he is relying on the work of others to build his armor, then that is a different issue.

Some people will think that's okay. Some won't. I don't think it's all that important that we squabble and debate that particular ethical minefield, just that we respect that both sides will have their own opinion of what's right and wrong and forcing the other side to agree with you is counterproductive to the intent of this here little thread. :)

Cheers.
TJ

PS. I am far from an expert on troopers so if I erred, please feel free to correct me.
 
Well, here you go guys... a comparison of the AA abplate to the real ab plate. There certainly appears to be some discrepancies.

[attachmentid=4917]
 
SDS pics? Anyone.?.?.?.... Has anyone checked the super accurate thread for te and or gf suits?
 
Originally posted by clutch@Nov 9 2005, 03:10 PM
SDS pics?  Anyone.?.?.?....  Has anyone checked the super accurate thread for te and or gf suits?
[snapback]1112861[/snapback]​
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D'oh. Now there's a thought.

I went outside for help, but there's only so far you can get with google and harassing 501st members. As such, the angles are off unfortunately but it's the best I could come up with.

Make of it what you will...

Edit: I'm going to hold back this image until I get an old style TE for comparison. Apples to apples, etc.

Cheers.
TJ
 
I absolutely HATE to say this without pics, but unless I am mistaken, the pic you posted is of a newer TE suit and I believe when TE reworked his suit he extended the stem at the top but I THINK it used to be even more stubby, like the AA. Again, don't take this as gospel as I don't haev the pics to back it up but it is something to consider.
 
How about this...

GF_SDS_ANH_compare.jpg


I would add here that the belt boxes on the GF and SDS seem closer to each other than either does to the ANH publicity shot.

Cheers.
TJ
 
Guys, my ESB replica posted earlier uses the older TE armour. If people can't tell from those angles then I quess I can go to the trouble of posting a full frontal later.
 
Oh yeah, and if you trim the lower edge of the chest armor closer........it will look alot more like those ANH pics than most any fan suit. Most are trimmed too little right there.
 
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