Origins of the AA/SDS Armor

Great thread and responses so far guys. :thumbsup

First off, I'm not for or against the whole AA/SDS pro/con argument, but just a curious observer.

I'm wondering why, for those that don't believe AA and his "original" mold statement, is it so hard to believe that he does have the original molds? I realize through reading this and other threads like it that he has contradicted himself, but could he possibly have lied to cover up the truth (that he has the original molds) for reasons unknown? Perhaps he knew exactly what he was saying and his statements were in fact calculating and meant to confuse. I'm no expert when it comes to trooper armor, but I do see the differences between his earlier prototype armor and the original armor, as I see the likeness between parts of his and TE's etc. I also see the changes he made to his current armor which appear to bring him closer to the original albeit not yet exact. My confusion lies in why would he need to alter anything on the prototype, to bring him closer to the original look, if (as he stated) he's using the original molds? :confused

I'd love to know the full origin of those molds. However, I do believe there is a possiblity that at least a portion of those molds are the original ones. Considering the recent appearance of those two sandtrooper helmets on Jez's site, anything is possible. Now whether those (helmets) were ahem, "legally" obtained by the owner is a whole other matter.

And thats a great point lambotour. That is a really good point actually. Who knows about AA. I mean, yeah, of course he could have put all the contradiction into his statements for that exact purpose. I mean its an intelligent idea.

And YES, you have a point. On his site it says "Original Makers, Original Molds..."

Yeah, he could have a few original molds, heck, shoulder bells, handplates. That is truth that he uses original molds. I just wanna know if he has ALL the original molds. There are rumors that they are other parts, and there are rumors that they are all the originals from 1977. I just wanna find out the truth.

But DEFINATE good point Lambo.

Yeah thats worst thing that i noticed about sdsprops.com. It says "original molds" all over the place now. More than ever.

I dont beleive that at all. I would love to, but i simply can not.

'IF' AA has the original moulds then why on earth would he need to make prototypes?

I know it's hard for most to see the differences and even when shown,some still can't/won't see them.I posted some comparison pics showing how the AA differed from the original LFL suit,but what I really should have done compare how it matches the GF/TE suit.

Now some people are saying 'well that was the prototype so it doesn't count'.Really,a prototype from a man with the original moulds is ridiculous.I can't provide comparison pics at the moment (photoshop not working) but the AA is so obviously recast from a fan suit it's not funny.

EVERY part of the AA suit is not 'correct ANH'.I know that from studying these suit's for many years I can spot a movie cast suit,and this AA is just not one of them.Not even a GF/TE or any other suit is a movie cast ANH.They are all someone's interpritation of an ANH suit made from modifying an ROTJ suit.

If we are going to find a screen accurate ANH suit then TBH,there isn't one.Don't get me wrong,the suit's that are available are very nice,but they are just not as accuarte as the movie suit's.AA's armour is just like the rest of the replicas and share all the same ROTJ traits.If he had the original moulds then they would not be like ROTJ as AA had nothing to do with ROTJ.

I am looking forward to see some comparisons,but they should be between AA and GF/TE and I wouldn't really bother with a comparison to an LFL suit.


-Paul.

What's a 'stormrooper'?

Heh, just kidding.

:$

Just to reiterate my previous statements, IMO the Stunt Helmet, Hero Helmet and TIE Helmet are from the original moulds. Its my understanding the Armour is NOT from the original moulds.

Looking at the SDS web-site it says of the Stunt “cast from the original moulds”

For the Hero it says “These unique collectibles are the only helmets ever produced from the original moulds”

For the TIE it says “These unique collectibles are the only helmets ever produced from the same moulds”

However for the Armour it says “Stormtrooper Armour – from the original maker... Our new armour is an accurate replica of the armour we produced in 1976”.

There is no mention of moulds.

I have no interest in getting into an argument over what the sources are, as AFAIK the source is still to be determined. However SDS are clearly NOT saying that the armour is from the original moulds.

Great thread, lets keep it on track.

Cheers

Jez

Originally posted by BingoBongo275@Nov 8 2005, 07:55 AM
However SDS are clearly NOT saying that the armour is from the original moulds.

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Then how do you explain the emails the xmart posted where AA's statements are clearly contridicted? Selective reading or focusing on only part of the information is a poor way to draw factual conclusions...

Posting one thing on the website and then emailing out a different story to customers, IMO is far from "NOT saying the armour is from the original moulds" he does just that in emails, but because he hasn't posted it on the website, in your opinion he isn't claiming it :confused Seriously it's as plain as day in his email that he claims original molds...

And if they are not from the original molds there where are they from? Did he happen upon an original ANH suit and recast it? Doubtful, as there are tell tale signs of ROTJ not ANH in his suit... Also if this is the case why do some of his parts from what we can see match the custom sculpts of GF not screen parts? I believe these are the questions that this topic is supposed to address... The conclusion from where I stand (and others) is obvious in regards to many of the parts...

But Flynn, you keep ignorning that "some" of the moulds MAY be of original origin.......what if he's not putting that statement on the website so as not to mislead folks into thinking ALL the moulds are from '77??? It's just a thought. Why don't you guys ask him personally to just clarify??? He's a really cool fella to correspond with. If you see a contradiction, ask him, he might have an explanation that will make you happy. He has answered every single question to my satisfaction.

Dave

Exoray,

I donÂ’t know the background to xmarts email and I wouldnÂ’t presume to speculate as to its content or message.

I was just stating that the word from SDS on their site is that the armour is not from the original moulds.

Again like I said, I have no interest in getting into arguments about what the source is/are, as there looks to be parts from a number of different sources, ANH and RoJ. Fact is we don't know and thatÂ’s the point to this thread

In the spirit of this thread I was just expressing an opinion in a civil way.

Cheers

Jez

What do we all hope to gain from this discussion? Seriously. Let's say that you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he used a TE suit. Then what? Or is it just the thrill of the chase? Do you feel he is taking advantage of people? I hope not because the only people that are gonna know about it are people who frequent this board. And even then, members here are buying his armor. I'm neither for or against, just want some insight into this SDS enigma.

Maybe Jez could post a good comparison on his starwarshelmets.com ?

The point is people should know. This is a hobby filled with geeks. As geeks we geek out on things. Such things as the exact details of stormtrooper armor.

There is nothing wrong with that (ok maybe there is ) Anyway, thats what this whole place is about. Learning the history, striving for perfection.

I dont think it matters if AA will or will not stop making the armor based on the observations of this board. I think its just in the good nature of the hobby to strive for perfection and to learn about each item's uniqueness.

The goal is to own the real item. Well if that goal is unobtainable then the goal is to own the closest accurate reproduction possible. Is it not?

For some it isnt, but for the folks here i think it is.

I agree with you clutch. I dont think it will go anywhere. But i would hope we could atleast compare the armor to real armor and learn a thing or two.

Great thread so far. Makes for a much nicer read when people stay on target.


Jez, you're right that AA doesn't overtly make any claims to casting from original molds on his site, but I exchanged two emails with him (I can post them if you like) and I think there is a very clear inference that original molds were used albeit refurbished/rebuilt/tumbled/what-have-you. His responses are similar to what xmart posted in the 22 page locked thread.

Having said that, check this out:



Every page that comes up in regards to this armor has the "original moulds" banner on it. Based on what xmart posted and from what I have received, it would appear that when you email SDS they will lead you to believe original moulds were used. I think it's pretty clear what you're meant to think when you deal with SDS even if he doesn't spell it out exactly on his site.

Regardless, even if he didn't make so much as a single hint to original molds on his site, that wouldn't give him free reign to use whatever he wants in my opinion. Besides, you would think that if they were original molds that he would play that up to the hilt on his site as he did with his helmets.

An omission may not equal an admission, but it's certainly very much on the suspicious side.

Cheers.
TJ (or JT, for the martini drinkers among us)

Thanks to wackychimp for the host.
Edit: Added some words.

Good point TJ

Sounds like he should specifically say that the new Armour is not from the original moulds on the page itself, if indeed its not

Cheers

Jez

Originally posted by clutch@Nov 8 2005, 03:37 PM
What do we all hope to gain from this discussion?  Seriously.  Let's say that you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he used a TE suit.  Then what?  Or is it just the thrill of the chase?  Do you feel he is taking advantage of people?  I hope not because the only people that are gonna know about it are people who frequent this board.  And even then, members here are buying his armor.  I'm neither for or against, just want some insight into this SDS enigma.

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I would like the truth. I honestly believe if AA was serving what he said was on the menu then we'd all like the smell of his cooking. But, frankly, something stinks in the kitchen and I would like to know what. Simple as that.

If it turns out that AA is using original molds and everythign is above board, then fine. Everyone can go home happy.

It it turns out that he's not, that accusations of recasting are true then that's not fine. Some of us here choose not to support that sort of thing. But I would like to think that if you're going to dish out that kind of money you'd like to know what EXACTLY you're getting. I certainly wish I'd known more before I bought my SDS stunt.

Also, this board is not a closed microcosm. People here frequent other boards and I would think that if a resolution is ever achieved that word would spread.

Cheers.
TJ

Originally posted by vaderdarth@Nov 8 2005, 02:54 PM
But Flynn,  you keep ignorning that "some" of the moulds MAY be of original origin.......
Dave

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This is why I believe we SHOULD compare the SDS armor to the real armor. While AA may or may not have used a TE suit for some of the parts, I think every part should be looked at as I remember AA showing an original pull shoulder that was just BEAUTIFUL. Again, I think there are some different goals here by different members. I think some are just interested in being able to say AA is a liar and a recaster. However, my interest is to see where each part of AA's suit came from be it from a new mold off an old part or an original mold or a recast of someone else's work. I just want to know the origin of each piece and I think we need to stay on target with that and not begin to debate once again whether SDS is the devil or God's gift to troopers.

TJ,
Sorry for the transposing.....like I said a couple of Martinis.

Little ol' Bounty Hunter, I would like to remind you of your first post in this thread "Let's keep things civil." I will try to address you questions in order:

-I don't understand what you are implying. Could you elaborate? Are you saying that -a TE suit, is mixed and matched between ANH, ESB, and ROTJ? Yeah, I know. Mines -like that.)

Yes I can elaborate...Like I said above, some say that the TE suit is a mix. There is a whole thread about how the forearms dont match eachother. If you have a TE suit it is obvious that the left and right forearm were not sculpted by the same person. The right is larger and less formed. It requires padding to stay in place.

I posted,"If the AA suit has some found (non original molds) components than so be it. If the results are close enough to fool the naked eye then who cares for $1,000??????"

-You responded;I care. I dislike Recasters. And this isnt a Recasting 101 class, so -dont tell me that all the other armorers are just recasters, you know what I'm -saying. GF and Ginos all have private artistic reproductions parts in the armor. So -hence, there are still differences between originals, so if those are still present with -AA, thiere is a problem.

It is obvious you don't like recasters. 'So dont tell me that all the other armorers are just recasters'. Where did I even imply that????? TE-GF-Gino etc are all talented in their own rights and deserve to retain their hard work. I have personal professional experience of what it feels like to have a legally licenced replica that I worked hard on get recast and sold in every Target and K-mart. Are you a professional propmaster? Do you stand to loose your income from recasters? I'm against recasting primarily on principle, secondly on legality.

-"If I had the original Stormy chest piece mold, and somewhere in the ages it -cracked, If I had glued it back together and reworked and bondoed the seam so its -nice and smooth still, ITS STILL ORIGINAL. Original Molds is not a loose term. If AA -is using the EXACT SAME ORIGINAL MOLDS that were used to mold the EXACT -SAME ORIGINAL SUITS from 1977, 1981, and 1983, then thats what we are talking -about, no matter if they were reshaped or reworked."

That is your opinion, AND I RESPECT IT. Let me tell you a little story about molds, originals etc. When I worked at Icons back in 95 we got a full screen used Terminator from Cameron himself to take molds off. Part of the resin inner hip was broken and held in place with chrome automotive tape. I started to gather materials to fix it when the owner (J.L.) kinda freaked out and stopped me saying to mold it as is. 'Dont change a thing as it would destroy the originality of the prop and devaluate it.' This guy was a lot of things but he was an avid high end prop collector. My opinion is two fold: A) when you change a mold, even for the better, you have changed the mold. It is no longer original. B) if you change it for the better.....who cares about A?..

There is enough talent and effort here to do a geneoligy on the AA suit. In my OPINION: AA suit accuracy falls somewhere along the lines of the German Movie FX suits. A decent buy for $1K but I wouldnt say it was out of the original molds.

The quest, it seems to be, more along the lines of who did they recast it from and lets disprove the originality claim. Kind of a shame really. Most here can look at the AA and instantly tell the things that are not screen accurate. I look at my TE next to a GF, and this is my OPINION again, feel that the TE is more true to film.

So in closing, I want to contribute in a positive fashion. If someone in the L.A. area gets an AA suit I would be more than happy to take side by side pics.

Lets recap: Recasting BAD, sharing information and positivly promoting opinions without flaming GOOD

I think Brak's idea is a very smart, scientific approach and I applaud it. I mean, having a bias is only human nature, but I think we'll get farther in this if we all at least try to keep an open mind.

Now, if only we had some decent pictures already.

Cheers.
TJ

D'oh. Clicked edit instead of reply and wiped my post. Here goes again...

Lear60man, while I didn't personally see LOBH posts as uncivil, I'm also only too inclinded to want to defend my honour in the place where it was sullied so I see where you're coming from.

Having said that, I would ask both of you to please take it to PMs if you wish to continue. I've PMed with you both, you both seem like cool guys, so I'm sure you'll be able to work it out.

Sorry. I feel like I'm playing armchair mod here and I apologize to those who hold the position if I am overstepping my bounds here.

Cheers.
TJ

Originally posted by LittleOleBountyHunter@Nov 8 2005, 05:26 AM

I don't understand what you are implying. Could you elaborate? Are you saying that a TE suit, is mixed and matched between ANH, ESB, and ROTJ? Yeah, I know. Mines like that.

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Don't want to get too far off subject here but I don't want to be too much misinformation. To the best of my knowledge there are NO ANH/ESB suits that have been made available. TE, GF and GINO's suits all came from the same source... an ROTJ suit. Each of these armor makers have made changes to the molds to make it more like an ANH. The ROTJ suit these molds came from was incomplete so some of the "right" and "left" were just copies from a single piece. TE later replaced these mirrored pieces with what I believe to be parts from a tour suit.

Just don't want people to think anyone is offering parts from an original ANH suit. That is kinda what was so exciting about AA's suit. It was the first suit in a long time that had the potential to be a TRUE ANH not a reworked ROTJ. I also think the big reason TE and GINO and a few others are so upset about the possibility of AA having recast a GF suit is that these suits are not JUST castings from an original suit. They are highly modified and reworked castings. No, they aren't scratch built but they aren't just reconditioned either. A great deal of artistic talent was spent to get the ROTJ suit to look like an ANH. Please don't think I am for or against it or want to discuss it. Just trying to give a bit of history so you will understand why some are angry. They feel the work they have done has been stolen. Of course others feel that TE and everyone after stole from AA to begin with my casting a ROTJ suit... Ya just can win I guess...