Prometheus (Post-release)

Too Much Garlic said:

Here's the thing. The whole driving force in the movie is Weyland and his desire to prolong life / regain his youth. He wants it so badly that he funds an enormously expensive expedition to get it. The whole movie then reverts to the standard BS about the robot having to be ambiguous and apparently scheming and at odds with the very people Weyland brought along for the journey to find the answers for him, so he could get what he wanted. All through the movie it's just the usual - android ****s with humans. It makes absolutely no sense.

Weyland could just have brought David and no one else. He clearly had no use for any of the other characters in the movie, so why were they even there? The two scientists who found the constellation? Why where they there? The geologist, the biologist? Anyone? David just ran along reading the jockey text, pressing all the buttons, making everyone suspicious of him, making sure no one was working together, scaring them and making them split up, infecting the humans, direclt endangering Weyland and his quest in multiple ways. For no reason.

Clearly, the two scientists were brought there for a reason, as well as the biologist and the geologist. It would be imperative to them working together to find the answers, and with David being practically an interpreter, should relay what he was finding, so the others would know and they made the decisions together that brought forth the discoveries. Having him say what those markings on the wall was, and then having Shaw or the others tell him to activate it, making it a group effort, rather than a one-robot-mission kind of thing completely unrelated to the people on the mission even needing to be there.

Weyland wanted life. He funded the mission... so why was he having David go solo and not utilize the minds he'd brought on the mission with him, working together to find the answer for him - working together would surely have found the answers quicker, no? Why did David on more than one occasion endanger Weyland and the whole mission? Why the whole shady robot deal to the whole thing, if he was in fact just doing exactly what Weyland had instructed? Why the disposable "who the heck were those guys" characters?

The story could have been an old man and his robot in search for more life. None of the other characters matters one bit to the story or Weyland's mission, seeing as he's pissing on them being there through David from even before they go on the mission.

When dealing with motivations and actions of characters... Weyland's actions just contradicts his motivation - he works against himself and what he wants... and you are left with gimmicks to imply intrigue, ambiguity and double cross, when in the end... there isn't any at all.

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May I recommend you completely avoid anything by Philip K Dick, Isaac Asimov and about 50 other sci-fi writers.
lol:lol

Why? Do they continually have people's actions go against their own motivations?

I don't have a problem with the Engineers being our creators, or the Space Jockeys being our creators. Having the Space Jockeys be humans is a complete waste of a great story element.

And the only part of the black goo that bothers me is its inconsistency: one drop slowly changes you into a thingamabob. A sip will disintegrate you in about a minute. Chugging it turns you into the Toxic Avenger, minus the charm. And somewhere in there is the trilobite/xenomorph DNA. (And whoever settled on the name "trilobite" obviously never saw one before.)

Too Much Garlic said:

The whole deal about cramming Shaw in as the next Ripley is just such an old and tired trick that just falls flat. It's like... hey... he can't really do anything new, so is just repeating the formula - like the studio suits and their remakes.

Alien exists without Ripley. Ripley doesn't exist without Alien. The fact that they keep bringing Ripley back is as boring as keep trudging that same old tired story of the xenomorph. I had hoped Ridley Scott would be bold and brave enough to try something new... but... as far as I can see... he really didn't.

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I agree and disagree. Aside from the fact that Shaw was female (and you only have two genders to pick from, so it is a 50/50 shot) I didn't see her at all like Ripley or taking Ripley's place. From the very first scene of Shaw, she was presented as a completely different character than Ripley and in my opinion, she didn't have that much of a character arc, but instead a single, almost childlike drive to meet and understand her makers. She had it in the beginning of the movie, placing her own interpretation on the cave painting and she had it at the end of the movie, where after all she had endured, she still wanted to meet her makers. For me, there is a lot to be said about that kind of dedication, passion, belief and singularity of drive. If I pulled a baby squid from my own belly, I would be completely done with any aliens and exploring the universe and would just want to go home and hide in a corner. Not Shaw, and that is what makes her awesome. It comes back in her "choosing to believe" statement. From start to finish she still chooses to believe the answers are out there and that she is going to get them (reminds me of Fox Mulder from the X-Files). I love that spirit because I see that same thing here among many in this community and it is a fantastic thing.

Is Shaw a perfectly written character? Of course not... but she was the best in this movie, even better than David, and she had very little Ripley in her from my perspective.

Too Much Garlic said:

Why? Do they continually have people's actions go against their own motivations?

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No, they are all about robots behaving badly. :lol

Art Andrews said:

No, they are all about robots behaving badly. :lol

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Well, that I don't mind. I mind when it is done at the orders of a human and those orders basically contradicts the motivations of and endangers the person giving them for no reason.

All valid points Carsten regarding Weyland working against himself. Not quite sure how the guy managed to build/maintain such a succesful company. But then again, if everyone back on Earth were as dumb as the crew I guess it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

Art Andrews said:

To me, Prometheus draws back the curtain and says "you were focusing on this creature and you have admired/been frightened by it for years, but it is essentially a very small player on a much larger chess board. It is just a 24 hour cold in the scheme of things and just a failed side project... here you thought it was the focus, but it is really pretty inconsequential in the overall scheme of what is going on in the universe." That idea really appeals to me, but maybe it is not for everyone.

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Yes - this appears to be the fundamental split in views I think when it comes to the Alien connection.
Alien threatens us with the idea that there's something out there that is *nothing* like us, and it's bigger, older and more dangerous - that's powerful stuff and sets off a chain of thoughts.
Prometheus retro-fits this by now saying that the something out there you thought was 'nothing like us' is actually a heck of a lot like us.
It fundamentally changes the philosophy that Alien presented us with and supersedes it with an inferior, imo, philosophy. It's like using a bike to hammer a nail in and all the while the bike's getting bent out of shape and simultaneously being lauded as a very novel and interesting hammer.

I think it's this pre-occupation with a lot of sci-fi I find disappointing - turning everything back to humans, always humans, humans at the centre of everything - the "I am your Father" syndrome I'm calling it.
Personally I think we ask ourselves deeper, maybe more enlightening, maybe more troubling questions when we look further than ourselves and not see everything as human shaped.

Kit Rae said:

This one didn't have Alien in the title, and Ridley made it clear it was not another Alien flick.

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And yet...

Y'all are gonna lovvve this:

Prometheus Pre-Prequel! - YouTube

Kit Rae said:

This one didn't have Alien in the title.

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It also seems to take the alien out of the first movie. It's such a shame that everything has to revolve around humans. What I loved about Alien was that it felt like the crew had stumbled into the scene of something genuinely alien. Two species that had no connection to humans, with their own unknowable drama that had unfolded light years from human eyes. That alienness and the belief that you couldn't possibly know the events that had led up to the derelict being there gave a real sense of loneliness and isolation to the crew's plight. Suggesting that either or both species share our DNA instantly removes some of that chill for me.

Yeah, maybe that's one of the defining splits over this flick. I find Prometheus shrinks the Alien universe so much it now fits in my pocket. I can see why some feel like it's been opened it up - I'm just not with ya on it.

How awesome would it have been to have seen something like this instead?

Um...none.

None awesome

i'm glad the film was made and i think it has opened the alien universe.we got 2 great characters with shaw and david but it your gonna go a bit crazy with the last 1/3 of the film as they did, they might as well have gone all the way and had a colossal space beast say twice the size of the queen and similiar design and run with it.
i hope james cameron doe's the sequel,ha ha.

We seem to have hit a real turning point here. Early on, some of the naysayers were just picking apart things that to one degree or another have to be overlooked in any movie.. Now we are getting past the surface, to the heart of the issue some people have.

While I unabashedly loved Prometheus, I have never looked on Alien in the way that some of you do, and understanding how you see Alien and what appealed to you in that movie, I can very much see why you would be so disappointed in Prometheus. If I felt the way you do about Alien and had the connection you have, I might feel the same way. For me, Prometheus expands the Alien universe and makes it infinitely more interesting, but if the interest was originally generated by the mystery, than Prometheus would indeed shatter that quite a bit.

Given that a number of you feel that way, here is a question... is there ANYTHING that could have been done in terms of a prequel, that exploded who the space jockeys were that wouldn't have left you disappointed because there would be no way to tell their tale (no matter what the tale was) and not in someway take away an element of the mystery you valued so much in Alien.

Shaw running around in her under garments was alot more gratifying than Ripley doing that.:love

And she had a tentacle baby.:love

And Shaw has her sights set on something bigger than "survival". Ripley was only about that. She just couldn't escape the monsters.:facepalm

Art Andrews said:

Given that a number of you feel that way, here is a question... is there ANYTHING that could have been done in terms of a prequel, that exploded who the space jockeys were that wouldn't have left you disappointed because there would be no way to tell their tale (no matter what the tale was) and not in someway take away an element of the mystery you valued so much in Alien.

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Yes. I love ALIEN. It's my favourite sci-fi, replacing Star Wars as I have grown older.

I like Prometheus. I think it will grow me, as ALIEN did but it won't ever measure up. To me....making a better prequel....remove all the direct references to ALIEN. Weyland Corp makes the tie; I can see the future W-Y corp without it stepping on what I know. I don't mind that the Engineers are bigger style humans in suits, I actually think it is a fantastic idea. It made me go back and go whoa when I saw the scene in ALIEN again. I still don't know what motivated them, I still don't know WHY there is a giant ship with eggs, but what I thought was totally alien is actually related to me! It created....me?? I don't see Promethus as going "oh the space jockey was a guy in a suit." That was NOT a humanoid in a suit. I think the living Engineer we see on LV-223 is not wearing a suit. He's had a suit biologically grafted to him. When he gets in the chair in Prometheus, it's not as obivious, but he is becoming part of the chair. He is merging himself with the ship. how do I know that? Because I know what the end result in ALIEN is.

When I watch ALIEN, knowing that the Xeno is such a hideous creature, not because it is evil, but because it doesn't care. As Ash says, it has no morality, no conscience. It's like the Terminator. The original design of it (where it cocoons people to make more eggs, it had an extremely short life cycle). It's a weapon, clearly. And the fact that there were thousands of eggs...it's a terrifying concept.

Watching Prometheus....knowing the Engineers created mankind, and without any direct mention, just what I already know, the Engineers have access to the Xeno. They had a bomber full of eggs. Those Engineers created us and it seems like they wanted to kill us and *I* know what the Xeno can do so my god what hell is in theampulesbomberstonsthousandswe'reallgoingtodieohno...

I didn't need a blatant scene with the Deacon which appears to me to be a nod to the fanboys/diehards/hardcores by someone who wanted box office money by the tie-on. Yeah. It's a proto-ALIEN. I get it. Already figured that out. Maybe Prometheus 2 will explain it. Maybe I will appreciate it more in the future. Right now...I could do without.

ALIEN was slow paced. Some people don't like that. I like the tension build. ALIEN as a suspense/horror. Not the action of Aliens. Prometheus seems like a sort of combo of the two.

I do agree with you Art that ALIEN gave us a little glimpse of the universe. Prometheus definitely pulled the curtain back a bit more. I really do like Prometheus. It's making me think, and it's rare Hollywood movie these days that can do that. I haven't had this much discussion with my friends since the end of Inception. Initially I was disappointed that I couldn't relate to the characters in the movie. After a lot of thought and some discussion and a second viewing, I realized I was relating to the wrong characters. The Engineers are the ones I want to know about, the fate I care about, not the crew of the Prometheus. I didn't care the semi-happy, straight to a sequel ending of Prometheus. It copied too much from ALIEN, but not in a good way. I would been happier for a more abrupt ending. David talking to Shaw. He tells her, "there are other ships. I can fly them." Cut to Shaw raising an eyebrow and then roll credits.

So, long post to reply; my summation: it needed less ALIEN tie ins.

Charlie

Art Andrews said:

We seem to have hit a real turning point here. Early on, some of the naysayers were just picking apart things that to one degree or another have to be overlooked in any movie.. Now we are getting past the surface, to the heart of the issue some people have.

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I agree, because now some of the "Lovers" are willing to admit that the movie has major flaws and see the reasons why people would be turned off to it. Ain't midle ground grand?

Prometheus would have been a better movie without the baggage that was tied to it by saying or implying it was an Alien prequel.
To me it's like telling me that Mad Max takes place in the Water World universe, it just doesn't work for me.

As your question, there should have been no prequel. None was needed, the mystery of the alien ship and becon that draws the crew down in Alien is effective because it's a mystery.

It's like if they made a "prequel" ( I use the term loosley here) of Aliens where we get the back story of the terraformers, it's not needed and it's more effective to see the coffee cup and half eaten donut when the Marines come in and NOT know what exactly happened.
Infact I would dare to say that is what you are reacting to in this movie, you are enjoying not knowing, the mystery and the freedom your mind has to come up with your own ideas as to what happened. That was taken away from many of us in Alien with this movie.

I think preqels on the whole are a bad idea because you have to fit the story to a predetermanted ending so that it can mate up with the story and you loose the mystery. How much cooler where the Clone Wars and the relationship between Vader and Obi Wan before you saw TPM?

Art Andrews said:

What is there to like? The sad and cliched attempt at a "strong" or "empowered" woman? Ehhh... give me someone who isn't trying to prove something any day over that.

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*cracks knuckles*

The only thing Ripley was trying to prove in Alien and Aliens was that if you think something bad might happen, don't do something stupid.

ALIEN
Ripley: Wait a minute, if we let it in the ship could be infected. You know the standard quarantine procedure. 24 hours for decontamination.
Dallas: He could die in 24 hours. Open the hatch!
Ripley: Listen to me, if we break quarantine we could all die.

ALIENS
Hudson: Movement! Uh, can't lock in. Multiple signals... they're closing!
Gorman: What's happening Apone? I can't see anything in here!
Ripley: Pull your team out Gorman.

Now that is a character who I would want to be in my company. Shaw on the other hand?

PROMETHEUS
Crewman: Do you have any proof?
Shaw: I don't. But it's what I choose to believe.

My god, Shaw is female character out to prove something! You better abandon ship while you can Art! :O

And since you brought gender into the discussion, I would like to point how your attempt to describe Alien and Aliens as an attempt to make an empowering female character is a flawed one. I'll even spare you in asking if you've ever seen the movies like you did when you asked me if I saw Prometheus. At no point in either two movies does the issue of Ripley's gender come into play in regards to her ability to perform tasks, take charge or try to justify herself to anyone. Those who have ever opposed her decisions have done so only through incompetence or rank. Yet you still call it a sad and cliched attempt to make a woman empowered? Did you know when Dan O'Bannon and Ron Shusett wrote the story for Alien, they didn't write it with the mindset that Ripley would be a woman. They wrote it so that any character could accommodate any gender. They didn't think for a second that the film makers would want the hero to be female.

Heck, watch both ALIEN and ALIENS and pretend she's a guy. Tell me any scene in either film where having a guy in her role wouldn't work because the scene would only work for a woman. I can't. Alien and Aliens was more about showcasing gender equality than female empowerment. If it was about female empowerment, there wouldn't that amount of tolerance towards Ripley for the things she did.

Jeyl said:

PROMETHEUS
Crewman: Do you have any proof?
Shaw: I don't. But it's what I choose to believe.

My god, Shaw is female character out to prove something! You better abandon ship while you can Art! :O

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And when someone starts taking their helmet off in the unknown alien structure, she only half heartedly tries to stop him. No, you lay down the ****ing law that no one takes off their sealed spacesuit that can protect them from any number of hazards.

Gavin Rothery Blog - Why Is The Alien Script So Good?
If anyone hasn't read it already, here is a good Alien article by Gavin Rothery (concept artist and VFX Supervisor on Moon) and he offers a unique perspective of the film.