Re-inventing Lukes ANH Lightsaber- And Vaders too??!?!

OK, I had to go and toss the movie in the VCR and watch a little.

In the shot of Luke and Ben in Bens house, Luke does not put his 'finger' in the d-ring, only the tip of it (and Mark Hamill is small, like 5'4'') but I can only see 2-3 grips (total of 6) not 3-4 grips(total of 7)

In the shot of the destroyed Jawa Sandcrawler (great shots of Lukes Saber on his belt) I can only see 2-3 grips at a time (total of 6) not 3-4 grips (total of 7).

In the shot where Luke walks down the stairs into the Cantina, I only see 2-3 grips (total of 6) not 3-4 grips (total of 7).

I think either the Saber in all these 'after filming' photos was either a new, different Saber made and belonging to ILM (which is why I was used as a stunt and cut up and drilled and such) and has 7 grips, or the original needed it's grips replaced after filmimg and 7 were added (which makes no sence since 6 seemed to be used for everyother Saber onscreen).

If I recall, Bapty stilled owned the Lightsaber props until somewhere in ESB when George and ILM bought them, so until then the props had to be returned and undammaged. But ILM did make the stunt sabers for ANH, and maybe this 7 grip Saber was the ANH Saber made into the Luke ESB stunt?

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>As I depicted above, I agree with Gav that we are seeing a 3/4" view of the D-ring in the Chronicles pic. The gradient supports that, actually, imo.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

Here ya go Gav...Below is a diagram with the pic and a bottom view next to it...
Notice the RED line is pointing to the shadow cast by the metal wrapping around the D-ring

The BLUE line shows hat the glare is so prominant because its hitting a sharp curve..

And the GREEN line shows the D-ring slightly lifted off the base...Why is it lifted...Because the hinge is on the opposite side. If the hinge were on the bottom the D-ring would be pressed flat against the bottom of the Graflex...



And if you guys still dont see that, theres still the B&W closeup pic I posted with the RED line slicing through the middle. Although its not a completely clrear pic, its still undeniably confirms the blacement being in the center..Can you come up with an excuse do debunk that??!?!

Putting the centered issue aside for a moment, I absolutely do not see the Dring at the angle you suggest. The lines you drew would match up to the altered drawing I posted as well.

Not trying to be difficult, mind you! But the evidence you see as so clear just isn't.

I wouldn't have believed this without the pics - but damn - I have to say I see a centered D-ring and possibly 7 grips.

Any evidence that this is also the case with the screen version though?

I know the ring is a little high but as you can see the kit hardware rings can be modified to work and cover both holes

A couple of observations and questions:

1. I buy the 7 grip theory. I always thought the grip spacing on my saber was off somehow. The photos seem to present pretty convincing evidence that there where likely 7 grips.

2. When we are talking about the diameter of d-rings, are we talking about the diameter of the inside or outside of the flat portion of the D?

The reason why I ask this is because I'm sitting here with my Graflex and a hardware d-ring assembly (I've use them to attach D-rings to Luke ANH belts I've made in the past)) that I purchased from either Tandy or TLF, and I can get a pretty much perfect match (to me) on what the photos seem to be showing. The assembly is the 1 hole wrap-around strap variety with a D-ring that has a 1" diameter on the outside and a 3/4" diameter on the inside of the D.

I don't have a digital camera handy or I'd take a few pictures.

Hey Treadwell, do you see Bobas comparison pic above....What do you think now???

Also, Treadwell and Gav, you guys never answered about the B&W pic with the RED line showing the bottom split on two...
C'mon guys dont tell me you dont see the D-ring placed in the center on that pic....If you were to rotate the saber in the pic with the RED line into the same position as the profile pic the d-ring would be in the exact same position as the profile pic..
Anyhow I think Boba Debts profile comparison pic of his saber and the original proves my theory beyond a doubt...Aside from the fact that his D-ring is a little higher than the original, it looks dead on!....You can see the shadow of the folded metal wrapping around the D-ring (As I mentioned before he even posted his pic) and you can see the same glare on the D-ring as the original....
Every new piece of evidence that has popped up since the thread started has only pushed my theory farther into the realm of FACT...
Bobas pic clinches it for me ...One rivot, D-ring in the center and 7 grips...Thats the route Im taking.

I haven't argued about it being centered, I'm arguing against a "seeing what you want to see" interpretation of a fuzzy pic.

Note how you read what you wanted to read in bobadebt's post, too--where does he say he mounted it at the angle you suggest?

(I grant you he doesn't say he DIDN'T, either.

Treadwell your right he didnt say the placement of the D-ring....So i guess we'll have to ask him...
Hey Boba, Would it be possible to get a backview of your saber in accordance to the control box???? I would be most appreciative..Thank you..

I know you posted this pic on a different thread (hope you dont mind) but it doesnt show the control box position in accordance with the D-ring..

Wow, so many opinions floating around here. Great discussion!

First- James Kenobi 1138 - Your theory on ILM building the saber has MANY holes in it. We've seen the saber ILM built, it's called the Holiday Special saber. There were several more promo photos shot after Star Wars became popular- obvious because Mark Hamill was in a car accident which drastically altered his face. In these pics Hamill has the HS saber and Harrison Ford has a short haircut and the so-called Greedo Killer and NO Bapty props were used (no real guns ever left Bapty). The photos we're examining of Luke right now are pre-production. There were many photos taken pre-production of the whole cast (the Ford pics are easiest to identify as pre-production because his blaster is in better condition than the B&W Chronicles pics).
Also don't assume Icons knew anything more than we do. I actually doubt that a great deal.

EDC- on the red straight line through the saber- This only proves at this view the D-ring looks centered. You're assuming it lines up with the clamp. The flat edge of it could be angled away from the camera (mounted lower) and the pic would look the same. I'm just saying that pic is not that definitive.
I'm only looking at the same pics we all are, but apparently I'm seeing something different in the shape of the D-ring bracket. Here's what I see as the profile of the bracket:
<img src=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/lonepigeon/bracketprofile.jpg>
The metal strip doesn't curve to the D-ring on the inside like the picture hangar does. I'm not sure how you can get a profile like this where the screw doesn't force the bracket tight to the bottom.

Darth Saber- The ESB saber has 6 grips. We know that for sure thanks to the Wampa cave shot and the one ESB still in existence.

I see what you're saying about Bobadebt's pic. It does look very similar to the Chronicles pic. I think it does show that the darkest spot at the top of the D-ring is the inside of the bent metal. The BTM version of the real prop pic shows this clearer. I will post it.
BTW- the Chronicles pic is upside down. The D-ring is actually pointing up.

EDIT: (added pic)
<img src=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/lonepigeon/btm_anh_saber1.jpg>
I forgot to mention that since we can see inside the bent metal piece it can't be angled too much or the D-ring itself would obscure it. So we can't be certain it's a perfect profile of the D-ring bracket but it's close.

So whats the verdict on the grips.....I say 7...anyone else???Chris?

**EDIT**
Never mind...I look at the photo more and it makes think that the current way my ANH has the d-ring is fine. This is a very hard debate...Good luck to all in it. I will resign myself to watching.


I don't normally get involved in debates such as these. I prefer to live in my shell of ignorance and bliss and the chronicles.

I did note, just casually, that if one could recreate the shadow that is cast in the picture lonepigeon posted, it may tell how/where the D-ring lies by a point of reference. I am specifically referring to the left side of the picture where the shadow is of the d-ring and where the original d-ring is on the saber. Someone may have done this alreay. No one may care. May be a silly thought. It is late...

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lonepigeon wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

BTW- the Chronicles pic is upside down. The D-ring is actually pointing up.

EDIT: (added pic)
<img src=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/lonepigeon/btm_anh_saber1.jpg>
I forgot to mention that since we can see inside the bent metal piece it can't be angled too much or the D-ring itself would obscure it. So we can't be certain it's a perfect profile of the D-ring bracket it's close.

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gavidoc wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
EDC,

In your rendering of the 7 grips, I don't think that the d-ring is aligned directly at the "9" position with the button at "12".
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My bad Gav...I got my whole "clock" wrong there

In my render (posted below) the "Spine" of the d-ring travels from the 12 o'clock to the 6 o'clock position making it parralell to the "ears"



Notice the seven grip placement lines up perfectly with the chronicles pic, Im convince there are SEVEN grips for sure. And I am HIGHLY resistant to any new theory, but hell its plain as day here.

As for the D-ring yes, it is being view at a slight angle in the cronicles pic as well as my render, if you notice the saber is not photographed directly from the top. It is however, rotated slightly. About 7 degrees from what I can tell. Also note that the clamp is pushed slightly past the 3 o'clock (looking from the bottom of the saber) position which is where it should be if you twist a clamp all the way into its "locked" position

As for this pic with the clamp in a different position:

well this is just where the clamp would be if you rotated it in the opposit direction of its fully locked position, that is, the position the top of the graflex it in just before you would be able to slide it out of the clamp. Anyone who has a real graflex, try it out, you'll see exactly what I mean


Maybe these additional renders will help visulize things

Reference view of ANH saber - 7 grips, Clamp rotated just past 3 o'clock like the chronicles Graflex.


Reference view back - Notice the placement of the d-ring its in the same spot as on my comparison render above...the edge of the D-ring bracket falls right on the center line, which actually make the D-ring just a touch off-center.


Back view - D-ring mount parralell to the ears with curved edge of bracket butt up against inside lip of Graflex bottom

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DARTH SABER wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

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Darth Saber, the viewing angle you depicted here is incorrect, well partly incorrect to be more accurate.

For the B&W pic, you have the angle of the saber itself basically right, except that the clamp is not angled toward the camera, but away from it. The dead give away is that the holes on the side of the clamp are up to far in this shot:


Their being up to far to line up with the red button, ears, and other "centerline" elements of the saber mean that the clamp is rotated away from the camera

On the color pic, everything is the same, except the bottom tube and clamp have been rotated together to the other side of the keyway in the upper tube, this would be the position the top portion is in just before you can slide it out of the clamp. This is what the camera angle of each photo really is

This is my only problem with the 7 grip theory.

To have 7 grips on a Saber, you have to be able to see 4 at any given time from the side, right?

Now, If I look at the picture of the Darth Vader ROTJ Lightsaber from 'Star Wars to Indiana Jones' book, page 25, you can see 4 grips on that saber. Now we know that Saber has 7 grips, because we can count them on the same prop for real inperson because this prop still exists. We see 4 grips from the side, we know there are 7 total.

If you look at just about any Saber pic from anywhere with 6 grips, such as the ICONS Darth Vader from page 6 of the VD or the ICONS Luke from page 8 of the VD, you also see 4 grips (I'm not saying ICONS is correct in anything accept for having 6 grips we can all count, nothing else). If I pick-up any of my 6 grip Sabers from my collection and look at them either from the side of several of the angles I have seen in pics here, I can still see 4 on the side.

I'm just saying looks can be decieving (king sol?). Are we seeing 7 grips or 6 non-equally spaced, poorly mounted grips with uneven spaces between them? Could I take 6 grips and temporally mount them with tape and make any one of the Chronicles Saber shots? Probably. Maybe they rotated the clamp and top portion to make sure the evenly spaced side of the bottom tube was always facing the camera (hell I'm so tired of staring at Sabers I'd believe anything but 7 grips).

Each grip is about 13 MM wide.
Around a 1.5 inch tube is about 120 mm

6 grips would take up 78 mm, leaving 42 mm of exposed tube, divided into 6 spaces of 7.16 mm each.

7 grips would take up 91 mm, leaving 29 mm of exposed tube divided into 7 spaces of 4.14 mm each. 4.14 mm is a hell of a little space on a ruler.

With 7 grips, you lose almost half as much space between grips. I see too much shinny Graflex tube, even on my non-digital tv, to believe the screen Saber had 7 grips. Maybe this one did, but not the one from ANH.

I do agree that at least this saber does seem to have a single rivet d-ring that may not be exactly in the center but is closer to the center then the edge, at least on this Saber.

BTW, I drilled and mounted my d-ring set on the edge when I first built it, but actually put the d-ring on backwards (d-ring not on the edge side) and the d-ring fits the holes either way but turned around the d-ring sits between the edge and the center, and covers both holes with 2 screws. If I ever wanted to switch it to the 'centered' position, I could, but without a definitave pic from the movie (not the Chronicles anything) I will probably keep mine with 6 grips and leave the d-ring alone. Depending if MR gets ahold of some mad photos that no one has ever seen and produces a Graflex with either 7 grips or a single rivet centered d-ring, I will keep mine the same. ICONS were pretty innaccurate, but I have to believe that Steve will do a better job, and probably get more info and the MR will be closer to the original, at least I hope. Until then, I look forward to seeing all your 7 grip Sabers!!

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James Kenobi 1138 wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
This is my only problem with the 7 grip theory.

To have 7 grips on a Saber, you have to be able to see 4 at any given time from the side, right?
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Right, and you can see FOUR in the pics above, so we do know that this saber in THESE pics have seven grips...as for what actually appears onscreen, well your guess is as good as mine.

That was the purpose of my 3D model...I played with six grips at first but I could not get them aligned quite right with the chronicles pic, it was close, but just not dead on. So then I tried it with seven and they line up perfectly.

I agree you can see 4 on a 7 grip (maybe) saber from the Chronicles pic, but you can see 4 on a 6 grip saber also, seeing 4 grips does not prove 7 grips anymore then it proves 6 grips.

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James Kenobi 1138 wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
I agree you can see 4 on a 7 grip (maybe) saber from the Chronicles pic, but you can see 4 on a 6 grip saber also, seeing 4 grips does not prove 7 grips anymore then it proves 6 grips.
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Sigh...once agian, That was the reason for the 3D model... 6 grips would not line up properly, 7 does, its not just how many you see but how they are spaced.

I'm sitting here (when I should be sleeping) tryinjg to convince myself that the ANH might have had 7 grips.

I just can't do it.

In the VD, on page 8, the pic of the big Saber pointing up is an ICONS, and the one on Marks belt (the little one) is the real prop right? I think? Thats the photo someone scanned and posted here for a close-up of the d-ring, right?

When I look at the Saber on the belt, I see 4 grips. the 2 on the 'right' and 'left' seem opposite eachother, and then by default the other 2 have one grip each opposite them, right? I also see a ton of shinny metal tube between each grip, too much to be 7 grips, it looks just like the 6 grip ICONS on the same page.

The Chronicles may have had 7 grips, for whatever reason, and maybe became the ROTJ Vader Saber (highly unlikly), but I just can't see evidence of the Screen used Saber having anymore then 6 grips.

Did anyone pop ANH in the VCR and look at the shots I listed? Did anyone see something I didn't? If 7 is right I just want proof, not 3D renderings of Chronicles photos, I want screen caps from ANH showing 7 grips. I'll admit to the centered d-ring, but I need real proof before I start pulling grips off of sabers.

Chip, can you post a 3D view of the same pics with 6 grips, evenly spaced, just for the hell of it. I think your 3D views are really nifty-neato, not the real prop or anything, but keen all the same, and I would like to see both side by side, from several angles. It might help to convince me of 7 grips.

ps, I like the 'sigh' in your post, it almost made me feel stupid for having an opinion until I remembered I was allowed to see things how I did and not everyone would see them the same, and I remembered that you probably thought the same way. Still- the 'sigh'; like my opinion made you shake your head at me, I'm one of the foolish ones. Sorry about that!