Game of Thrones

“Outlines are the last resource of bad fiction writers who wish to God they were writing masters' theses.”


Stephen King

Spoken like a guy who doesn't know how to write endings.

Interesting sidebar (at least I think so) about GRRM.

I'm always trying to develop my writing, but I hate doing more than a rough outline and prefer what's called "discovery writing." It's just that doing all those index cards always feels like a huge barrier between me and diving into the story for the fun part, which is the writing. So I recently read a comment by GRRM saying if he knows exactly where his story is going, he loses interest.

VINDICATED!

Uh... not really.

I follow Melinda Snodgrass on FB, and she's close friends with him. I mentioned it on her feed, and she replied (without mentioning him by name) that writers who go with the "gardening method" (her term) tend to have major deadline issues.

Sound like anyone we know?

So, back to the frakkin' index cards, I guess... :unsure

Honestly, I think there are different goals. I'm not a writer, but I think there's a difference between a writer who's writing to tell a compelling story, and a writer who writes because they love writing and the process of it.

If you're deep into the process of writing, the very act of writing itself, then I can see where a "gardening" method would be more engaging. You don't know where the story goes, you have revelations yourself, and you can more quickly jump into the actual writing of it, instead of spending ages in the planning.

On the other hand, I think that approach has many, many flaws to it, including:

- Blown deadlines.
- Lost/dropped plotlines which just create unanswered questions (and not purposefully unanswered questions, either).
- Lost focus on the overall point of the tale. I would assume that most writers have a general sense of where they want their stories to end
- Not being willing to kill your darlings, which ends up degrading the overall quality of the work.
- Writing yourself into a corner, which requires a really unsatisfying solution.
- CRAP ENDINGS.

I far, far prefer the mapped out approach. I'm not saying he's the best writer ever, nor am I saying that the show is the best ever, but I have to say that Babylon 5 is probably one of the most satisfying overall tales ever told on television. And J. Michael Stracynski mapped the hell out of that story, to the point where he created "trap doors" for characters to leave if the actors playing them needed to move on (e.g. Andrea Thompson). As a result, his story feels like it has a solid beginning, middle, and end. The disparate parts come together, the questions that were introduced are generally answered, and characters get solid resolutions. They aren't always happy, they don't always occur neatly or cleanly, but it's clear that things played out according to plan.

Now, was that fun to plan out? No, probably not. I expect it was pretty painful and tedious, in fact, and required a good bit of backtracking and reevaluating. But once done, it allows for a much cleaner rollout of the actual story.

Still, it strikes me that there's this attitude within writing communities that that approach is too "plot driven," which, of course, means it's deserving of derision and scorn. Because everyone knows that plot-driven stuff is crap and character-driven stuff is better. The problem with that attitude, though, is that I think it ends up with stories that are satisfying only to other writers, and seems to be a very elitist "We know better than our idiot audiences" view. And it relates to this attitude that great art must, almost by definition, be completely unapproachable by the masses.

To me, that ultimately misses the critical role that storytelling plays in the human experience.
 
Spoken like a guy who doesn't know how to write endings.



Honestly, I think there are different goals. I'm not a writer, but I think there's a difference between a writer who's writing to tell a compelling story, and a writer who writes because they love writing and the process of it.

If you're deep into the process of writing, the very act of writing itself, then I can see where a "gardening" method would be more engaging. You don't know where the story goes, you have revelations yourself, and you can more quickly jump into the actual writing of it, instead of spending ages in the planning.

Me to a T. When a good idea pops as I write, or a character starts to speak on her own, it's exciting as hell.

On the other hand, I think that approach has many, many flaws to it, including:

- Blown deadlines.
- Lost/dropped plotlines which just create unanswered questions (and not purposefully unanswered questions, either).
- Lost focus on the overall point of the tale. I would assume that most writers have a general sense of where they want their stories to end
- Not being willing to kill your darlings, which ends up degrading the overall quality of the work.
- Writing yourself into a corner, which requires a really unsatisfying solution.
- CRAP ENDINGS.

The real risk is the first one, because it's driven by the time it takes to fix all the rest. You have to backfill or backedit, or go back and wholesale rewrite whole acts.. With experience you can head off writing yourself completely into a corner, but you still have some surgery to do.

Killing your darlings is an independent problem, but in any case I've grown quite callous toward mine. Not quite a soulless psychopath, more like Michael Palin in The Meaning of Life. "Sorry, darlings, but I'm afraid it's medical experiments for the lot of you.":p

As as for the rest, I think the character- v. plot-driven split is artificial. Character, plot, and theme need to be seamlessly integrated. Sacrificing any for the others is just lazy writing -- or at least careless. I think the idea of character over plot is a backlash against stories where characters break character for the sake of a plot device. But opening up a moron hole in your plot just so the heroine can be true to herself is no better.
 
As as for the rest, I think the character- v. plot-driven split is artificial. Character, plot, and theme need to be seamlessly integrated. Sacrificing any for the others is just lazy writing -- or at least careless. I think the idea of character over plot is a backlash against stories where characters break character for the sake of a plot device. But opening up a moron hole in your plot just so the heroine can be true to herself is no better.

YES.

I hate the plot vs. character debate. A well told tale does both, and it shouldn't be that one focuses on one vs. the other to drive the story. If you have clearly defined characters, you know how they'll act. If you have a clear sense of plot, presumably you've defined and written these characters in a way that they will perform the plot you want, but do so in a way that is natural to their characters. I just find it maddening that some people have the attitude of "Oh, well, this story is character-driven, so it doesn't need an ending that makes a lick of sense."

I'm big -- REALLY big -- on endings being incredibly important. And I hate the notion that "The journey is more important than the destination," at least when it's used in situations to somehow excuse a crappy ending.
 
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Great article on Sansa and what her actions in last week's episode could mean for the character.

http://www.theweek.com/articles/631406/game-thrones-sansa-problem
YIKES.

Well, I have to come down on the side of Psycho Sansa. Given what she's been through -- betrayal, abuse, loss, terror (not to mention so many nights in bed with Rapesey Bolton), I think the writer's reasoning is very logical. Hard to escape, in fact. She hasn't merely come into her own after having been shaped in the crucible of Westerosi family politics. She's been broken by PTSD, and she's only going to get worse. I just hope she doesn't develop Cercei's lust for power. As she is now, she has the leather to consolidate the North, do a Rains of Castamere on House Frey (which I fully expect), and become a badass Wardeness. But if she goes Full Cercei, she's gonna die. I'd hate that.

On the upside, she has plenty of steel and guile to use to outmaneuver Petyr Baelish. I wonder if she'll have Brienne decapitate him, or swing the sword herself? Or if Arya will do it of her own accord? She'd need a pretext, or she'd just be murdering her savior. Unless... Melisandre?
 
YIKES (Part II)!

Solo4114 (or anyone else), feel free kick my figurative butt if I'm late to the party on this. Not my real one. I'm Cuban, and you might never see your foot again. :p

I just had a realization about perhaps GRRM's dominant theme.

A recent reviewer pointed out that with Dany, Sansa, and Yara on the rise, plus the Dornish rebellion, Westeros is set to become a matriarchy. Then I started thinking about all the other women of Westeros, at least the main ones, and they're overwhelmingly "strong women" as Hollywood loves to toss around now. Cat, Brienne, Arya, the list goes on.

But even more to the point, with very few exceptions (those being a dwarf and a eunuch), the men of GoT have not been overridingly bright. In fact, Westerosi history seems to have been painted almost entirely in the blood of stupid, buffoonish men. And the few smart ones have been cruel, brutish, and conniving (or insane). Even Ned Stark, the übermench of the clan, lost his head for being a complete clod. It seems like the manlier they are, the dumber (or eviler) they are.

Today, when I started rereading GoT from the beginning, I noticed something. See, writers usually plant their themes in the very first pages (or minutes) of the story, but seldom in ways you'd notice. Then they keep building them till the end, intertwining them with character and plot as they go.

So when GoT opens, an arrogant little lordling is leading two older men on his first ranging beyond the Wall. As you may recall, the White Walkers make mincemeat of him and one other, and the third runs like a bunny straight into Ned Stark's sword. But it's not just the fact that GRRM opens the epic with a stupid, arrogant boy getting chopped into Walker meat. It's how he talks to the others.

He keeps chiding the old ranger in the group for being "unmanned" by the dark, or a wolf howl, or his imagination. In other words, he has no balls. He's acting like a woman.

Theon was "unmanned," and it's made him a better person. Varys was "unmanned," and he's one of the cleverest people in Westeros. Tyrion is "half a man," figuratively at least, and he's wicked smart. Even our foolish lordling, as one of the other Crows watches from up in a tree, loses his boyhood and becomes a Man of the Night's Watch the moment he stupidly charges the White Walker.

See where this is going?

I think GRRM is writing a strongly feminist theme, namely that the world can only be fixed when the women take charge. Because we boys are nothing if not brainless and impulsive, and have left a huge mess that only the girls can clean up. Whether you agree with that worldview or not is beside the point -- I think that's what this whole series is on about, and has been from the beginning.

(There's also the gradual replacement of polytheism by monotheism, but I think that's just a sub-theme.)

So: brilliant deduction, or laughably late recognition of the obvious? (Or -- GASP -- wrong?) :p
 
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My wife called it originally, then she started to doubt herself as the Jon the Targaryen theory came into being, and fell right back to it last episode, with a 'I told you so'.

I think he'll reverse sexes of the War of the a Roses and have the winning female marry into the last opposing major house to unite the lands.
 
Jaime perhaps? After Cersei dies maybe? On the other hand, I think he's been setting up for Jon to marry Dany, now that I think of it. Jon would be Dany's half-brother, and as has so often been pointed out, the Targaeryans have been marrying brothers and sisters for centuries....

So, I guess I'm late to the party after all. Vindicated! :p

Hmm... and I wonder if the incest isn't itself a thematic commentary on royal families? There's even incest in Dorne.
 
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Jaime perhaps? After Cersei dies maybe? On the other hand, I think he's been setting up for Jon to marry Dany, now that I think of it. Jon would be Dany's half-brother, and as has so often been pointed out, the Targaeryans have been marrying brothers and sisters for centuries....

Actually if Jon is truly Rhaegar's son (and he is) that would make him Dany's nephew. Rhaegar is her older brother.
 
Actually if Jon is truly Rhaegar's son (and he is) that would make him Dany's nephew. Rhaegar is her older brother.

Really? I thought she was one of the Targaeryen kids who was smuggled out during Robert's massacre. Along with her dead ****** brother and the other kid who's not on the show, but whom Varys was smuggling into Essos along with Tyrion in the books. At least on the show, she's the daughter of Rhaegar -- they said it twice in the last episode alone. Tyrion tells her what "your father" was going to do to King's Landing with the wildfire, and later Dany says "Our fathers were terrible rulers, all of us in this room," or words to that effect. Meaning Tywin Lannister, Rhaegar Targaryen, and Balon Greyjoy.
 
Really? I thought she was one of the Targaeryen kids who was smuggled out during Robert's massacre. Along with her dead ****** brother and the other kid who's not on the show, but whom Varys was smuggling into Essos along with Tyrion in the books. At least on the show, she's the daughter of Rhaegar -- they said it twice in the last episode alone. Tyrion tells her what "your father" was going to do to King's Landing with the wildfire, and later Dany says "Our fathers were terrible rulers, all of us in this room," or words to that effect. Meaning Tywin Lannister, Rhaegar Targaryen, and Balon Greyjoy.

Dany's father is Aerys II "The Mad King", she calls Jaime something to the effect of "the one who murdered/killed my father" when Tyrion tells her he is the only person he trusts.
 
Really? I thought she was one of the Targaeryen kids who was smuggled out during Robert's massacre. Along with her dead ****** brother and the other kid who's not on the show, but whom Varys was smuggling into Essos along with Tyrion in the books. At least on the show, she's the daughter of Rhaegar -- they said it twice in the last episode alone. Tyrion tells her what "your father" was going to do to King's Landing with the wildfire, and later Dany says "Our fathers were terrible rulers, all of us in this room," or words to that effect. Meaning Tywin Lannister, Rhaegar Targaryen, and Balon Greyjoy.

Nope. Dany's father both in the books and in the show is Aerys Targaryen aka The Mad King. Also the father of Rhaegar and Viserys, her older siblings.

asalaw you might want to pick up this book ;)

51iBRcy2T9L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 
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Finally.. the dragons looked good! (still a little to be desired while Dany was riding it though)

but the best they ever looked IMO!.


I'm not 100% clear on why Sansa kept the little finger/army stuff to herself and didnt tell Jon?
 
Got it. I was confused and thought Rhaegar was the mad king. But whether Rhaegar was her father or her uncle, the point is...

... the Targaeryans are an incestuous family, Jon is her relative, so there's precedent for Jon and Dany to marry. It also ties the throne to the North, which is a very wise political move. It's all been teed up, now Jon and Dany just have to... uh... swing... :p

And also, which Targaeryan is which has no bearing on the implied criticism of royal family trees.

As for that book, the internet is full of maps and family trees, like this one. They weigh less, and they're free. ;)
 
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Got it. I was confused and thought Rhaegar was the mad king. But whether Rhaegar was her father or her uncle, the point is...

... the Targaeryans are an incestuous family, Jon is her relative, so there's precedent for Jon and Dany to marry. It also ties the throne to the North, which is a very wise political move. It's all been teed up, now Jon and Dany just have to... uh... swing... :p

And also, which Targaeryan is which has no bearing on the implied criticism of royal family trees.

As for that book, the internet is full of maps and family trees, like this one. They weigh less, and they're free. ;)

You might want to check out this one for the books: A Wiki of Ice and Fire
 
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Finally.. the dragons looked good! (still a little to be desired while Dany was riding it though)

but the best they ever looked IMO!.


I'm not 100% clear on why Sansa kept the little finger/army stuff to herself and didnt tell Jon?

I'm guessing it's because she didn't know for certain whether Littlefinger would show up or not and mentioning that to Jon would have done nothing since he showed that he wasn't going to wait for possible reinforcements. It's not like they have e-mail or phones so that Littlefinger could send word back right away to say, "Hi Sansa, yes, I would love to come and be a part of your army and help you reclaim Winterfell.". The best that he could do is send a raven to her but that takes time and the raven might not even arrive until he's already there and finished mopping up the remains of the Bolton forces.
 
I understand that.. and I'm not saying why didnt she say "THEY WERE FOR SURE COMING."

I mean even not sharing it was an option?

I mean you can TELL it was a forced scene.. (at least "I" picked up on it).. where Sansa looks like she was going to say something.. but didnt.

Part of me wonders if she was worried about Jon taking credit? Where as this was a (solo) Sansa action? (ie: possibly giving more authority over the claim to the throne?)

I think there is more to play out on that aspect IMO
 
I don't think it was a matter of her worrying about Jon taking credit. I think it was a matter of she has been bitten in the ass too many times by sharing information freely; she's finally learned that secrets can be a good thing.

Plus, there was no way of knowing whether Petyr would actually come help after Sansa's prior dismissal of him or not so why bring it up?
 
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