PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction / Vader Helmet Discussion

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

Well... dome size could be caused by how it was photographed. I think we have seen it demonstrated pretty clearly that distance and zoom has a great deal to say in how something looks in a picture.

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

In conjunction with distance and zoom, the dome positioning also reminds me of the Paul Allen ESB bust where the dome looked small - and, in turn, that reminds me of the hybrid setup, the Hoth scene, where Vader enters the command center and looks around (ANH sized chin triangle).



That's not to say that there's no way it's smaller than the original. Any time there is sanding, you're removing material....

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

I just think it's the way it's photographed. I have pictures of the SL that looks strikingly similar in dome to face mask proportions as the auction helmet. But I was not sure if it was okay to post them...

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

If I posted them here before you are free to post them. But those photos were taken very close, Carsten. The auction photo is clearly further back and I showed the proportional view with the SL comparison. The helmet is smaller than it should be, although you can lower it in photoshop and see. If the photograph was taken closer, the mask distorts in a very typical way and I don't see that here. The sides become smaller and the mouth/nose/eyes become relatively larger. I find it amusing you guys always go back to the angle/lighting issues. I have taken literally thousands of photographs of my castings from different distances and angles so I think I know when something is not proportioned properly.

The politics point is as I said just an excuse.

This isn't hard to figure out. The helmet clearly doesn't look original. It has tells as being a pull from the Baker ILM mold. Further to that we know that the original ANH costume including the helmet went back to Lucasfilm after the tour and on top of that we have evidence that it appeared or at least was present during the productions of ESB and ROTJ, and in altered form (chin vent cut larger by ROTJ). So by not one but three lines of evidence this just is not the original ANH helmet.

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

CSMacLaren said:

If this was truly the reason why the community wasn't consulted - politics - then we sure better change how we discuss things. This "King of the Hill" mentality polarizes the community into a political one, and our net gain is zero. When one individual tries to promote themselves as a sole authority above everyone else, he creates the politics the community never wanted in the first place.

Let's get our act together.

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Let me get this straight, we should pander to the auction houses because they don't like our politics?

They don't approach the "community" because they know that we would simply prove them wrong, and that is not good business for them. Plus after all this is a replica community, not purely an original prop community.

And we are all here to find the truth. It is just that some work harder at it than others...

And clearly it is they who have to get their act together, not us.

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

CSMacLaren said:

The notion that the auction houses may not want to tap into the online community for Vader expertise due to politics is interesting.

As I look back at the last several years, if there is one recurring theme, it's the online clashes arising from people stating things as facts without backing up claims in a verifiable and unambiguous way, to the point that they rush to elevate theory to the status of "fact" or "proof" or "evidence" (or that you have to accept someone's word without them having to state the source of their information).

If those among us with some degree of Vader prop expertise don't see the "slam dunk" evidence (let alone laypersons like those at esteemed auction houses), and the theorists despise their theories not accepted as fact fire back, the resulting disagreement is politics.

If this was truly the reason why the community wasn't consulted - politics - then we sure better change how we discuss things. This "King of the Hill" mentality polarizes the community into a political one, and our net gain is zero. When one individual tries to promote themselves as a sole authority above everyone else, he creates the politics the community never wanted in the first place.

Let's get our act together.

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Forgive my ignorance, but as someone with no knowledge of these issues, reading these discussions leaves me wondering if there is no equivalent for SW helmets and armor pieces of something like HeroComm - Portal --and if not, why not? There are similar projects being developed for other areas of original prop collecting as we speak. The argument is made by some collectors of screen-used props that making this sort of information public leads to better forgeries, but the fact is items like the questionable ones offered by Christies and PiH currently get accepted largely based on their lines of provenance, and only much less so by how accurate or inaccurate they appear to be. Likewise, any SW helmets likely to show up by now 30 years on are likely to have a line of provenance--however strong or weak--and not merely turn up mysteriously with no backstory.

That being the case, it doesn't really help the potential forger in and of itself to read such a resource since lines of provenance are currently given so much weight, while it does help the original prop collecting world at large (in avoiding the more obvious forgeries, settling minds about debatable pieces, developing a more accurate and universally agreed upon family tree for these props, and maybe in convincing big auction houses to give the physical hallmarks of authenticity more weight), and has obvious corollary benefits for the replica world.

There are those who take a very proprietary approach toward information in the world of original prop collecting, and they have various justifications. I think those attitudes hinder progress toward a more open, transparent, and educated approach to the hobby, rather than protecting anything in the long term. Am I alone in this thinking?

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

Xenophon1 said:

Forgive my ignorance, but as someone with no knowledge of these issues, reading these discussions leaves me wondering if there is no equivalent for SW helmets and armor pieces of something like HeroComm - Portal --and if not, why not?

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In answer to "why not", I would say, because it takes a massive amount of effort and work... However, we are currently building the under-structure to support a wiki database that would do just that sort of thing!

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

All I can say is with regards to other props, in the past I've been 100% sure of things but then when I actually held an item it totally changed my mind about certain details.

Sometimes the photos just don't tell the story, so I would steer clear of definitive statements.

Offer an opinion, and move along.

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

Xenophon1 said:

Forgive my ignorance, but as someone with no knowledge of these issues, reading these discussions leaves me wondering if there is no equivalent for SW helmets and armor pieces of something like HeroComm - Portal --and if not, why not?

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I wish the Vader side of the fandom was more "Open Source" but unfortunately many of us (myself included) entered at a time when old timers had already created a very political and secretive culture, having sworn people to secrecy, and they formed factions that hated one another - all to create little empires of superior posturing.

As for myself, I approach this from the sculpting side. People like Too Much Garlic helped me develop an eye in the early days (what a gesture of community friendship, if I might add), and I posted my learnings and sculpting methods on The Prop Den. Ironically, after posting a tutorial on how to sculpt the bridge of the nose better (the metallic gray part with the 3 notches) a fan vendor made the same modifications on his product, and touted his product as being descended of an ESB Stunt mask.

It was not a good feeling that I empowered a vendor who in turn lied to fellow fans, when the information was intended to help people. Despite the fact, I haven't given up....

However, in every Internet community there are aspiring personalities who try to maneuver themselves to the top of the totem pole. The sour the community atmosphere with such behavior. The community simply has to take a unified effort at denouncing such behavior, and to become better acquainted with now openly available information.

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

micdavis said:

Sometimes the photos just don't tell the story, so I would steer clear of definitive statements.

Offer an opinion, and move along.

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I'll give you a great example of this. I was going through some Hi-Def screen captures and noticed a very distinct hole pattern in the chin triangle once.



It looked like sheet metal perforated with holes instead of wire mesh. I did some looking around and actually found sheet metal with that same hole pattern and hole density.

However, without saying this was "evidence" that sheet metal was used, I corroborated this with Darth Karo on The Prop Den. He stepped through the video footage of the very cockpit scene. When the lighting within the cockpit changed, you got the whole context of that screen capture, and that lighting actually showed it was mesh and not perforated metal.

So, out of context of the video, the single-frame screen capture happened to reflect light in such a way (with flare and all) that it looked like specific round holes.

Wow.

In this hobby, we need to rely on working with others to verify a hypothesis at various angles, and beat it up until it still remains standing.

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

Xenophon1 said:

... but the fact is items like the questionable ones offered by Christies and PiH currently get accepted largely based on their lines of provenance

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Sometimes paperwork helps in reinforcing the notion of originality or the suggestion of provenance. While not necessarily indicative of where in the lineage tree a prop came from, for some auction participants it's sufficient to have an official document fuel the imagination.

If an auction participant believes the suggestion of provenance due to paper work. In such cases, here's an old document that is either reinforcing the auction description, or is suggesting a story independent of the auctioneer's promotion.

The power of suggestion from an old document can be quite potent.

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

This maybe won't going to happen but:

Take a handful of serious vader helmet collectors from the DEN or the RPF. Let them bring their helmets with them and compare all of them, define a standard for making pics and then build the ultimate encycolpedia out of it.

Two reasons why this won't happen:

1: some helmets will perhaps devalue when their origin is proven.

2: some helmets will perhaps turn out as recasts.

Back to the PIH:

Am I correct when I say that the PIH is the helmet DP made his molds off and also the same helmet where the Baker derived from?

If this is correct does that mean that the helmet EFX is going to release next year is nothing more than an unaltered Version of a Don Post Deluxe?

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

Cool website, Xeno...thanks for the link. Ya that would be a lot of work.

skynet said:

Back to the PIH:

Am I correct when I say that the PIH is the helmet DP made his molds off and also the same helmet where the Baker derived from?

If this is correct does that mean that the helmet EFX is going to release next year is nothing more than an unaltered Version of a Don Post Deluxe?

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Hehe not really. The PIH helmet is probably a pull from the Baker mold that was modified a bit. In fact, for something like the chin vent being so different it would have to be a copy of a casting from the Baker mold.

The eFX master came out of the same Baker ILM mold and was just cleaned up a bit, so it is actually superior to the auction helmet.

The DP Deluxe came much later from a ROTJ helmet, not ANH.

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

SithLord said:

Hehe not really. The PIH helmet is probably a pull from the Baker mold that was modified a bit. In fact, for something like the chin vent being so different it would have to be a copy of a casting from the Baker mold.

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Doesn't have to be a copy. The alteration could have happened on the cast itself.

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

This is true, only size would tell that...

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

Art Andrews said:

In answer to "why not", I would say, because it takes a massive amount of effort and work... However, we are currently building the under-structure to support a wiki database that would do just that sort of thing!

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Call it "WikiProps"

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

Hi. I am not a Star Wars collector by any means, and have read this thread in detail, but am VERY confused.

Could someone summarize what the issues are here and is this prop authentic?

Just wondering... and so confused! :eek

edit to add: this thread has been very interesting for me as someone who loves the movies and can remember going to the first one in my hometown with my Uncle and cousin and thinking this is the most amazing movie I have ever seen. I saw it 3 times that day and I will never forget it. ANH still amazes me to this day.

Thanks to all of you who have put in your expert ideas, stories and background. Again, since I am not a Star Wars collector, I am just confused as to what some of the references are (I have googled A LOT and done some outside research) I am just wondering if someone could boil this all down for the amateur!

Thanks!

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

Perhaps I can help, however could you be more specific in terms of what "references" you mean?

But in answer to your question, no, the prop is not authentic, neither by appearance, nor by the account of the source (SDS), nor by what we can be confident of the fate of the original ANH helmet.

I am curious, and if you do not mind the question, since you are not a Star Wars collector, why the interest?

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

SithLord said:

Perhaps I can help, however could you be more specific in terms of what "references" you mean?

But in answer to your question, no, the prop is not authentic, neither by appearance, nor by the account of the source (SDS), nor by what we can be confident of the fate of the original ANH helmet.

I am curious, and if you do not mind the question, since you are not a Star Wars collector, why the interest?

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Like I said, it brings back the best memories of going to the movies as a kid/teen...

I appreciated all the background info. By references, I mean abbreviations, people and places you guys referred to in your posts.

Just never collected Star Wars. Most pieces I have lusted for were out of my budget. There are a lot of things i like that I don't necessarily collect...

Re: PIH Production Vader Helmet Up for Auction

ANH: A New Hope

Don Post Studios: California, USA, made tour suits at the time of the Star Wars release

DPS: Don Post Studios

"EFX guy": special effects professional (I assume)

AA: Andrew Ainsworth, made the original stormtrooper costumes (vaccuformed them) in 1976 for Star Wars, owner of Shepperton Design Studios in the UK

WTF: well I won't define that hehe

Jeff W./GH line: helmets received from a Don Post employee in the mid 90s, essentially offshoots of whatever template Don Post might have worked on for the tour or toy helmets. Also referred to as GH/Jeff

ROTS: Revenge of the Sith

Rick Baker mold: a mold taken off the original ANH Vader helmet back in 1977 and used to make a number of promotional (and screen) helmets over the years, as well as the recent eFX licensed ANH Vader helmet. Rick Baker was second unit makeup artist for Star Wars.

DJ: Darth Jones, former ILM employee

SL: SithLord.....me

DJ and SL in that context refer to helmets coming from the Rick Baker mold.

Fyberdyne: Someone in the early 90s that made helmets from a template that supposedly came from Don Post studios. They are distinguished, among other things, by a latch on the forehead for securing the helmet. It also may be an earlier version of the GH/Jeff helmets, or related through a similar source.

Baker ILM: same as the Rick Baker mold. I call it Baker ILM because it was originally referred to as simply the ILM mold.

PIH: Profiles in History

DP ANH: hypothetical Don Post studios Vader helmet of the A New Hope (Star Wars) style.

Paul Allen ESB: An original stunt Vader helmet from the Empire Strikes Back sold in auction to the former Microsoft VP Paul Allen. Presently touring as part of the Seattle Science Museum.

ESB: The Empire Strikes Back

ROTJ: Return of the Jedi

SW: Star Wars

The Prop Den: A definitive forum for discussion of Darth Vader-related topics and other Star Wars topics. Also called "the Den".

eFX: licensed producer of Star Wars helmets.



I hope this helps, welcome to the RPF!