jarroth
Sr Member
why not spam comments in that video about who made them?
Blade Runner 2049 - Tomenosuke controversy
- Thread starter staermose
- Start date
why not spam comments in that video about who made them?
Incept Date
Well-Known Member
If people are wondering why Adam didn't bring up if these were Tomens, it was because most likely this video was made prior to the controversy. He visited the set during the production of the film I believe.
If you look at all the props in that movie......how the heck are you gonna give credit to everybody? If Bob discovers a cure for cancer while working for Pfiser........Pfiser discovered the cure for cancer, not Bob. Im sure Tomen sold some blasters to the Prop master, but only the propmaster will know what guns got film time. He could have studied and torn apart a couple to recreate, recast in rubber, borrow parts from or use them as display pieces for press or.......
If Tomen wanted credit, he should have put it in the sales contract, bad business decision. Making a stink in a public fashion after the fact, worse business decision.
If Tomen wanted credit, he should have put it in the sales contract, bad business decision. Making a stink in a public fashion after the fact, worse business decision.
KramStaar
Sr Member
In fairness to Tomenosuke, all they did was post on their blog the fact that their blasters were featured in the video and showing how they could be identified. They have made it very clear that they don't want this issue to decend into mayhem and have purposefully kept all comments reserved.
The fact that fans have taken such exception to the omission should not be confused with it being an official Tomen view because its the fans who have roundly come to the party in support of them and most (if not all) of the more strident remarks have not come from Tomenosuke.
M
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I have been 'following' all of this with great interest. I will chip in with an edited version of what I discussed with a member here earlier via FB. Tomenosuke has signed an agreement with Alcon and NECA to make and market the blaster worldwide. BUT...and this is the important BUT...Alcon and the WB own the intellectual property rights on the blaster's design. They can do whatever they want with them. The props dept bought 6 blasters from Tomenosuke through HCG (three standard, three modified for blank-firing). What the makers of BR2049 do with them after that is their own affair. They literally OWN the right to do that. Tomenosuke feels their work has been overlooked or somehow misrepresented by the BR2049 property department and Doug Harlocker but actually the fault lies with the third party interviews, where it is made to appear they're not getting adequate coverage through the media. Now that's as maybe but they're not the only blasters used in the film. Now, you guys here are VERY particular about the nuts and bolts aspect and that is more than understandable but, from a publicity point of view, VICE, WIRED, Adam Savage et al, are probably keenly aware that there is little to no general public interest in knowing that six replica blasters came from a Japanese company who were making unlicensed replicas up until they bought the legal right do so. BUT, there is lot of traction in saying the progenitor of the prop mainly used in the film came from the original in 1982 and all the $270,000 brouhaha that comes with it.
Incidentally, I saw Mark's quote "They have made it very clear that they don't want this issue to descend into mayhem and have purposefully kept all comments reserved." - I could comment on that but I won't (and that's not a derogatory remark aimed at Mark - he's a nice guy and a great artist) but aimed at the subject.
Incidentally, I saw Mark's quote "They have made it very clear that they don't want this issue to descend into mayhem and have purposefully kept all comments reserved." - I could comment on that but I won't (and that's not a derogatory remark aimed at Mark - he's a nice guy and a great artist) but aimed at the subject.
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joberg
Legendary Member
As others have said (and not to pour more gasoline on an already burning industrial fire:rolleyes) "We" (fans, amateur prop builders and pros working for the Industry) have different experiences from each others and it's certainly an eye opener for a % of us to hear the politics, contracts, products, IP and normal behind the scene stuff happening on a day-to-day movie set. "We" know the truth and that's enough. It would've been "nice" from the producers/prop makers, etc to put the word "Tomenosuke" in their videos...but this is real life.
I like the fact that, as Mark pointed out, that Tome is keeping their comment fairly reserved; just to show you that they don't want to rock the boat and lose on other future contracts/opportunities to sell their product.
I like the fact that, as Mark pointed out, that Tome is keeping their comment fairly reserved; just to show you that they don't want to rock the boat and lose on other future contracts/opportunities to sell their product.
kcpstudio
Sr Member
Let’s not down play or wash out the actual comments, postings. They were far from tactful. You especially don’t address the studio or prop master and bring them to the table to scold them they way that it was done. There was no “tactful discussion about “this is what we did or provided”. In some comments made public online... I believe it went like this....
“We have been profoundly disturbed knowing this distorted information, and still unable to get our mind straight. We thought that a professional involved in creation like a property master, would understand the high standards we set for the Blaster and the passion we devoted to it, but it apparently turned out to be untrue actually”.
This is the tone set in the entire post. In fact, anyone that believes Tome was just talking about their blaster obviously did not even read the post. Tome put the word out to get the studio’s attention. As sure as I’m writing this.... they got it. In fact, they got a great deal of industry attention. Did they think the rest of us industry professionals would not chime in? If their idea was to talk smack on the studio to get attention to their replica or sales...... let me know how that tactic worked out for them down the road.
“We have been profoundly disturbed knowing this distorted information, and still unable to get our mind straight. We thought that a professional involved in creation like a property master, would understand the high standards we set for the Blaster and the passion we devoted to it, but it apparently turned out to be untrue actually”.
This is the tone set in the entire post. In fact, anyone that believes Tome was just talking about their blaster obviously did not even read the post. Tome put the word out to get the studio’s attention. As sure as I’m writing this.... they got it. In fact, they got a great deal of industry attention. Did they think the rest of us industry professionals would not chime in? If their idea was to talk smack on the studio to get attention to their replica or sales...... let me know how that tactic worked out for them down the road.
I like the fact that, as Mark pointed out, that Tome is keeping their comment fairly reserved; just to show you that they don't want to rock the boat and lose on other future contracts/opportunities to sell their product.
Trust me when I tell you, 'they' originally had no intention of staying quite so reserved, even when a reasoned version of events was posited. I'm not 100% certain but an appeal to his better nature prevented that from escalating. Until, of course the Adam Savage video hit and many were more than eager to fan flames that had already, in my opinion, started to die out.
David3
Sr Member
Yes, I see. This answers my earlier question as to why we haven't seen Deckard's '2049 Hero' with the other replicas. Didn't realize it was an actual firing gun.
Just to reference back to kcpstudio, he's 100% right. When you work on a film, your onscreen credit is "at producer discretion", unless otherwise stated in your contract (Usually reserved for "Above the Line" people like writers, producers, directors, actors, etc. With regards to Tomen, they are the same as say a manufacturer of a chair. You wouldn't say "Chair by Ikea" if you bought the chair outright. And when doing a press circuit, you wouldn't have to say "Yah we bought our chair from Ikea", unless you have a contract that specifies you to do so, which it seems like Tomen does not have. Does it feel kinda ****ty to have your work shown on screen and then not get a credit for it? You bet it does, but it's not like it's personal. It's just business, and the credits can only be so long. The fact that 5 VFX studios were credited at all is astounding, and then the miniature work by Weta on top of that.
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kcpstudio
Sr Member
Kylash
The studio owns the chair! They own IKEA! Going all the way back to when offices first opened up with the initial BR. They certainly don’t owe a bootleg company that made $$$ off their IP for years.
You’re missing the point. First, the studio did make guns. So his comment applies! And yes... they did purchase some Tome guns. However, Tome purchased NO product placement! Studio owes them NOTHING! They purchased product from a store! Period! And a studio certainly is under no obligations to say what venders they used. Especially from a company producing illegal copies of another artists work with a protected IP. They should be extremely happy that the studio purchased from them. They could have taken that fact with their new license and made those claims there in their sales pitch. Certainly not publically bashing the prop master or studio.
Let me ask you a question. Do you know what the studio did to the guns they did purchase from Tome? No, you do not. Do you know if they purchased the base guns to tear down and rebuild to keep continuity all the same with respect to finishes? No, you do not. Do you know what the FX guys had to do to them for each scene? No, you do not. You are aware Dan’s gun was used in this entire mix? I have one of Tome’s later guns and it does not match Dan’s gun. Period! I have worked on shows where we took off the shelf items and I redid them internally and externally to match the directors liking in both form and function. Even after saying all this..... the studio owes them nothing. This is exactly why a lot of us refuse to work with fans. This is why I refuse to hire fans. This is why I scratch build everything.
The studio owns the chair! They own IKEA! Going all the way back to when offices first opened up with the initial BR. They certainly don’t owe a bootleg company that made $$$ off their IP for years.
You’re missing the point. First, the studio did make guns. So his comment applies! And yes... they did purchase some Tome guns. However, Tome purchased NO product placement! Studio owes them NOTHING! They purchased product from a store! Period! And a studio certainly is under no obligations to say what venders they used. Especially from a company producing illegal copies of another artists work with a protected IP. They should be extremely happy that the studio purchased from them. They could have taken that fact with their new license and made those claims there in their sales pitch. Certainly not publically bashing the prop master or studio.
Let me ask you a question. Do you know what the studio did to the guns they did purchase from Tome? No, you do not. Do you know if they purchased the base guns to tear down and rebuild to keep continuity all the same with respect to finishes? No, you do not. Do you know what the FX guys had to do to them for each scene? No, you do not. You are aware Dan’s gun was used in this entire mix? I have one of Tome’s later guns and it does not match Dan’s gun. Period! I have worked on shows where we took off the shelf items and I redid them internally and externally to match the directors liking in both form and function. Even after saying all this..... the studio owes them nothing. This is exactly why a lot of us refuse to work with fans. This is why I refuse to hire fans. This is why I scratch build everything.
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Enigmatic
Active Member
Damn. I just caught up with this entire discussion. From what I've gathered, this whole event appears to have resulted in a step backwards for fan involvement in the industry and Tomen's as well. I guess the question I have is; how big or small was that step back? Not sure what their aspirations were, if any, in working in Hollywood but I would feel bad for Tomen if this seemingly trivial matter completely crushes any such hope.
Grey
Sr Member
Just because they arn't owed anything doesn't mean they don't deserve the courtesy of a little recognition. This isn't a chair from Ikea in the background of a shot, it was a promotional demonstration focusing on a very specific aspect of the movie and it would be very easy for them to say "these are the ones we worked on, and here are some guns we picked up from ________ " including anything they may or may not have done to modify them "off the shelf."
Your entire arguement about what the studio isn't required to do and what they arn't obligated to do reads like something my lawyer would send me and your holier than thou attitude about it all is why a lot of fans would feel the same way about working with you. What a shock that fans who go from working on a project out of love for the source material are surprised to learn just how uncaring this industry actually is.
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kcpstudio
Sr Member
What you feel they deserve is a matter of opinion. The studio paid them to buy some replicas. What you say “would be easy for them to say” is what a fanboy would say and not a professional under studio contracts and NDAs. The reason my comments sound like something your lawyer would say is because this is HOLLYWOOD you idiot. It’s about contracts first with everything we do. And... you wouldn’t be working for me because I wouldn’t hire you in the first place so don’t flatter yourself. Let’s stay focused as well here. Tomen was bootlegging illegal copies for years without studio approval... without a license. They should be happy they got some of their product in the film and use that info to market their stuff instead of the avenue they took. Your entire post is exactly what a fanboy would say and not a grownup with a understanding of IP, licensing, infringement, non-disclosures, etc. The industry isn’t uncaring.... it’s business! Again, the studio owes them squat! Let it go already!
kcpstudio
Sr Member
Agreed... but the same can be said for someone sending negativity my way. Especially making comments like they would never work for me based on what? Their lack of information on this topic. I know the back story. I know exactly what contracts were signed. I know exactly what transpired between Tome and the studio. If fans knew the real story, this discussion wouldn’t exist. Grey’s comments were meaningless and not apples for apples. To say the studio is uncaring is equally dumb... considering how tolerant they are with all the illegal IP going around. For Tome to come back and feel they were cheated is equally stupid. For someone to place Ford, Gosling, or the director under spot light and on the spot is even worse. Just dumb. They’ve been ripping the studio off for years. Research who actually owns the IP in the first place. I know these people, I work with these studios. Don’t bash them when you don’t know the story. Period. And... the studio owes nothing to anyone or a explanation. This thread is not a controversy. In fact... what does it have to do with building replicas and having fun? Nothing. It’s fans of the RPF bashing the studios with no leg to stand on when it comes to this topic. Keep it up. It’s this same BS that had contracts I have to sign revised with respect to industry guys being able to work on fan films... ever! Again... thanks to someone who thought they knew IP and the law.
I think this thread needs to be closed, locked, and hidden. FYI... definition of idiot: an utterly foolish or senseless person. If someone is going to trash talk me on something they clearly have no clue of the back story or industry contracts, then there’s the definition.
I think this thread needs to be closed, locked, and hidden. FYI... definition of idiot: an utterly foolish or senseless person. If someone is going to trash talk me on something they clearly have no clue of the back story or industry contracts, then there’s the definition.
nickytea
Master Member
Your comments sound nothing like anything my lawyer would say. Additionally, your comments are beneath anyone's concept of "Hollywood", and well beneath this forum's standards of discourse.
As for, "what a fanboy would say," and "the studio owes them squat," you should know that you are entering into a discussion of a hobbyist fan forum, regarding not what is legally owed -- any child could understand that neither the studio nor the prop master legally owes anybody anything -- but rather what they feel is due in the court of public opinion. Also, it seems peculiar to invoke nondisclosure agreements when the issue is not of credit withheld (not disclosed) but rather an accusation of a potentially erroneous credit given in bad faith during a promotional interview.
If fans and their concerns are beneath you, this forum is beneath you. And casting aspersions of "non-professionalism" in the manner you have chosen to do so, using the language you have chosen to use ... is hysterically hypocritical. A true "professional" would not be commenting in this thread at all, much less in the insulting manner you have chosen to engage.
