Greenie
Sr Member
No. That was JJ teasing the audience with a plot thread.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
- Start date
No. That was JJ teasing the audience with a plot thread.
sztriki
Sr Member
Greenie
Sr Member
what are you showing me sztriki ?
I see that as "eye, hair, breasts, wrist, and maybe scuffed up knuckles". Which means that Rey will be successful, have interesting adventures, and will meet a tall dark stranger.
sztriki
Sr Member
Hints, teases, clues, mysteries and objects with epic backstories that are all related to 5 people in a vast and immense galaxy full of potential to be explored.
Okay, sarcasm off, just making fun of all the endless speculations where people spent days of creating hour-long videos where they explore how every single speck of dust in every frame must be a clue or a hint regarding something huge turn that's coming up.
I dunno the way that whole "you're nobody" line from Kylo went down just smells like a set up for some big reveal in the next film,I mean it is a copy of empire strikes back in a lot of ways so instead of "I'm your father!" it's "You're nobody! Nothing!" is just a set up for the final showdown bit coming up.
And you know it's coming up,we're getting return of the Jedi part deux next,they've gone from nods to a new hope,to a copy of ESB,so ROJ is next.....
And you know it's coming up,we're getting return of the Jedi part deux next,they've gone from nods to a new hope,to a copy of ESB,so ROJ is next.....
Solo4114
Master Member
My recollection of the film is that it actually did that, but it did it in a much more subtle way, and one where it doesn't surprise me that audience members may have missed it. Rey goes into the Dark Side cave thing, against Luke's warning, and we're expecting something like the awful vision Luke had in the Dark Side cave. But in truth, Luke's Dark Side cave encounter was where (1) the Dark Side showed him the truth (albeit symbolically), and (2) the revelation was based on fear and pain into which Luke gave in. Luke's vision showed him the truth that Vader was "him," which had two meanings. First, that he literally was Vader's son, and second that if he kept going down the path he'd taken, he could very well turn into another Vader.
With Rey, she goes into the cave, and the cave shows her what she fears and also the truth. I don't remember exactly what she says, but it's something to the effect of "Who am I? Why am I like this? Who are my parents?" The cave shows her a million reflected versions of...herself. Rey's questions are deeper than just the literal ones, though, because they're questions asked with a purpose -- that purpose being to provide her with some kind of identity onto which she can latch herself. If, for example, her parents were a Kenobi and whomever else, then, ah, it all makes sense and it gives her a kind of built-in identity, not to mention a deeper sense of her family that might erase the pain of having just been left behind for drinking money. Understanding her own identity and parentage might reveal some distant strength in the Force, which would explain these crazy abilities she has. But the cave shows her (1) her greatest fear (that she's nobody, that her parents were exactly who she thinks they were, and that she must ultimately chart her own course alone), and (2) the truth about her past. Snoke then confirms it for her (well, really for the audience).
Think of it this way. Rey's been abandoned on a planet. She's waited for over a decade (almost 2?) for her parents to return and they haven't. She hopes that they will, though, and stays there because of it. In some ways, waiting in limbo is easier than confronting the pain she feels at having been abandoned and unwanted, and that's what Maz talks to her about. It's this reluctance to confront the fact that they aren't coming for her that leads her to refuse the "call to adventure," so to speak. All of this stuff ties back to her central internal conflict: who is she, where does she come from, and what does that mean for where she's going. Related to her hope that her parents will return is a hope that her parents are not who she believes/knows them to be. She believes/knows that they were junk traders who treated her like junk to be traded. She hopes that they were...something more. Something that makes it so their act of abandonment was borne of love, not callousness. Something that explains why she has her abilities. Something that provides her with a ready-made identity and a path forward. It makes sense, and kind of fits with kids who've been orphaned or abandoned. "My parents were secret Jedi on the run from the Empire/First Order, who left me with this horrible man to make sure I was safe." Basically, she's hoping that the truth of her background is the same as Luke's or Harry Potter's. "No, no. My parents really did love me, and they left me here because they loved me." Instead, the opposite is true, and the cave shows her that.
She is who she is, because it's who she made herself or because of something intrinsic to her and completely separate from her parents. Who her parents are doesn't answer who she is nor provide her with a path forward, and that's why the cave shows her endless rows of herself. It's also her greatest fear: that she's alone, that she has no one but herself to rely upon (which isn't the whole truth -- more on that in a second), and no easy roadmap for the future. But in a way, that's freeing (and in a sense, that's what Ben tries to show her). If she doesn't have a past to hold her back or constrain her, then she can choose her own future. If she isn't saddled with a family she didn't want, then she can create one for herself. (Ben's great tragedy, by the way, is that he never understands that he can do this, too in spite of his past, and without destroying it.) Rey gets to choose her family in the form of Finn, and to a lesser extent, Han and Luke (and maybe Poe?). Rey gets to choose her path forward and chart it for herself, freed of the strictures of the "Jedi Code." The galaxy is her salad bar, and she can pick and choose what she wants.
It's also worth noting that this gets at a core problem for young people today: the paralysis of too many choices and not knowing the "right" ones to make. Just a random thought there.I agree, too, that the prequels showed the Force manifested in all manner of people and apparently at random (although there's some question about how much of that was also because Jedi were forbidden to marry/breed). But that only kinda cuts against the notion that we need to answer who Rey's parents are in a way other than "They were nobodies. Moving on..." Unless you tie it to a "big name," the ultimate reveal has no serious meaning unless it has meaning to Rey. The only way that'd happen at this point is if it turns out Snoke was lying, trying to manipulate her, and Rey's parents did indeed leave her with Unkar Plutt because they loved her and wanted to protect her from whatever was after them or something.
I also have a theory as to why the Force manifested in her specifically (and how it also tracks with the stable boy), but that gets into a lot of speculation.
seelsa73
Sr Member
I think this is a repeat, but idk how far back the post is and it's very apt and still relevant, so here it is (again?). https://twitter.com/JTEmoviethinks/status/980938596302536704?s=19
Here's a gif I made highlighting the tepid First Order response in TLJ:
https://i.imgur.com/4AV4FkS.gifv
Here's a second one showing a section of the throne room fight:
https://i.imgur.com/u8BoIi6.gifv
It looks like Rey gets slashed by the left hand blade, screams in reaction and collapses, the guard catches her, and starts to force her to stand up by holding the blade to her back. They must have changed this late in the edit, maybe it was too dark for Disney, and ILM painted the second blade out of the scene.
Edit: I think you have to open the gifs in a new tab to see them full size.
https://i.imgur.com/4AV4FkS.gifv
Here's a second one showing a section of the throne room fight:
https://i.imgur.com/u8BoIi6.gifv
It looks like Rey gets slashed by the left hand blade, screams in reaction and collapses, the guard catches her, and starts to force her to stand up by holding the blade to her back. They must have changed this late in the edit, maybe it was too dark for Disney, and ILM painted the second blade out of the scene.
Edit: I think you have to open the gifs in a new tab to see them full size.
sztriki
Sr Member
My recollection of the film is that it actually did that, but it did it in a much more subtle way, and one where it doesn't surprise me that audience members may have missed it. Rey goes into the Dark Side cave thing, against Luke's warning, and we're expecting something like the awful vision Luke had in the Dark Side cave. But in truth, Luke's Dark Side cave encounter was where (1) the Dark Side showed him the truth (albeit symbolically), and (2) the revelation was based on fear and pain into which Luke gave in. Luke's vision showed him the truth that Vader was "him," which had two meanings. First, that he literally was Vader's son, and second that if he kept going down the path he'd taken, he could very well turn into another Vader.
With Rey, she goes into the cave, and the cave shows her what she fears and also the truth. I don't remember exactly what she says, but it's something to the effect of "Who am I? Why am I like this? Who are my parents?" The cave shows her a million reflected versions of...herself. Rey's questions are deeper than just the literal ones, though, because they're questions asked with a purpose -- that purpose being to provide her with some kind of identity onto which she can latch herself. If, for example, her parents were a Kenobi and whomever else, then, ah, it all makes sense and it gives her a kind of built-in identity, not to mention a deeper sense of her family that might erase the pain of having just been left behind for drinking money. Understanding her own identity and parentage might reveal some distant strength in the Force, which would explain these crazy abilities she has. But the cave shows her (1) her greatest fear (that she's nobody, that her parents were exactly who she thinks they were, and that she must ultimately chart her own course alone), and (2) the truth about her past. Snoke then confirms it for her (well, really for the audience).
Think of it this way. Rey's been abandoned on a planet. She's waited for over a decade (almost 2?) for her parents to return and they haven't. She hopes that they will, though, and stays there because of it. In some ways, waiting in limbo is easier than confronting the pain she feels at having been abandoned and unwanted, and that's what Maz talks to her about. It's this reluctance to confront the fact that they aren't coming for her that leads her to refuse the "call to adventure," so to speak. All of this stuff ties back to her central internal conflict: who is she, where does she come from, and what does that mean for where she's going. Related to her hope that her parents will return is a hope that her parents are not who she believes/knows them to be. She believes/knows that they were junk traders who treated her like junk to be traded. She hopes that they were...something more. Something that makes it so their act of abandonment was borne of love, not callousness. Something that explains why she has her abilities. Something that provides her with a ready-made identity and a path forward. It makes sense, and kind of fits with kids who've been orphaned or abandoned. "My parents were secret Jedi on the run from the Empire/First Order, who left me with this horrible man to make sure I was safe." Basically, she's hoping that the truth of her background is the same as Luke's or Harry Potter's. "No, no. My parents really did love me, and they left me here because they loved me." Instead, the opposite is true, and the cave shows her that.
She is who she is, because it's who she made herself or because of something intrinsic to her and completely separate from her parents. Who her parents are doesn't answer who she is nor provide her with a path forward, and that's why the cave shows her endless rows of herself. It's also her greatest fear: that she's alone, that she has no one but herself to rely upon (which isn't the whole truth -- more on that in a second), and no easy roadmap for the future. But in a way, that's freeing (and in a sense, that's what Ben tries to show her). If she doesn't have a past to hold her back or constrain her, then she can choose her own future. If she isn't saddled with a family she didn't want, then she can create one for herself. (Ben's great tragedy, by the way, is that he never understands that he can do this, too in spite of his past, and without destroying it.) Rey gets to choose her family in the form of Finn, and to a lesser extent, Han and Luke (and maybe Poe?). Rey gets to choose her path forward and chart it for herself, freed of the strictures of the "Jedi Code." The galaxy is her salad bar, and she can pick and choose what she wants.
What you say is absolutely spot-on. I would hope that most people got that aspect of the movie. However, think about it this way then: Rey at the end of the day knows deep down there despite all her hopes, dreams, lies to herself that her parents are never coming back and she is just a random dude in the desert living from day 1 to day 2. According to TLJ that's a given, since Kylo read this from her mind, not from an outside source. That obviously leaves her with the character traits that you just outlined. How does that affect her character on a story-level? As you said she sticks to the idea that she must be someone important due to to lineage, her parents will come back and then she will be happy again. Then she needs to realize that it's all fluff and needs to stand on her own feet and build on her own self, which she pretty much did all her life. It's not the most original, best or greatest character arc, but an arc nevertheless.Problem is that this arc is resolved in TFA. She is reluctant to leave Jakku, she is reluctant to join Finn and Han and it culminates when she flat out refuses the lightsaber and Maz's heedings, it's basically spelled out by Maz: "the belonging you seek is not behind you". Then when she is captured and the most vulnerable she fights back and starts to rely on her newfound abilities, in the very end stands up, holds her ground and comes out triumphant. At that point she takes up the mantle of helping the Resistance, finding Luke and embracing her own self without clinging to the past and her ideals. TLJ adds nothing to it really other than telling the audience that there's no lineage. This I think is why most people feel disappointed. I totally agree if the movie was the exact same as it is now but with a "huge" revelation that she is Palpatine's catsitter or whatever, it would make no sense or add nothing to the story or the character. Because it ultimately didn't change anything, Rey carries on business as usual after this. This is especially jarring to me considering that the movie still goes on for about 30 minutes after this event and it barely has Rey in it anymore.
A better way to handle it I think would have been if she realized or admitted (depending on your certain point of view) it more openly earlier in the movie. In the darkside cave, or Kylo told her during one of their force-skype session instead of the climax of the film. Then there would have been time to develop the idea further, maybe it actually prompts her to go and save Kylo instead of just simply getting fed up with Luke's BS. This could have given her new motivation, even a flaw where she still wants to cling onto something bigger or something with a noble past. I don't know, just do something with it, because the movie is not about her at all after this information is disclosed, unlike TFA where the climax is her embracing her new self, giving up clinging to her past and going on a new adventure on her own.
Now don't shy away...
I was gonna do the exact same thing, with an added slide-whistle when he flips the lightsaber. As much as I hate abrupt cliffhangers, that last scene of TFA was really well made.
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I'll actually be brief this once. Regarding the will of the Force, that goes all the way back to Star Wars:
"You mean it controls you actions?"
"Partially -- but it also obeys your commands."
Regarding Rey's parentage. I believe there is more yet to this than "nobodies". I chalk that comment up to a combination of Ben trying to gaslight Rey and his own belief based on what he feels from her. I don't think that ship departing is a false memory. I also stand by the not-included-in-the-final-cut-of-TFA shot of a woman and a tall being handing Rey off to Unkar Plutt at the foot of the boarding ramp of what was a decently sized freighter-y ship. I don't think JJ had a grand plan, and I think he's fine with what Rian did because where Rey's at with her parentage currently is what is right for this stage of her journey. More might be revealed. It might not. It might be saved for a novel or something.
And speaking of. "Why is she so strong with the Force/Why did the Force 'choose' her?" Thanks to the Aftermath trilogy of novels, we know that she set up housekeeping on Jakku (after leaving Unkar Plutt's "care") pretty much on top of one of Palpatine's observatories. Between the Sith artifacts kept there and the borehole to the planet's core, there's a strong likelihood some serious Force stuff was going on there. Could be relevant. Maybe we'll see.
--Jonah
P.S. I don't get the Rose hate. She is a straightforward, hard-working member of the Resistance who was tired of being numbered among the downtrodden masses. She's not a princess or a senator or a bounty hunter. She's a maintenance worker tasked with keeping unauthorized personnel out of the escape pods. She is in awe of people like Leia and Poe and is very aware of all the recent exciting goings-on with the defected First Order Stormtrooper and the mysterious scavenger who knows how to find Luke Skywalker. She's a background Yavin IV hangar tech given some time in the footlights instead of just being set dressing. I want to see more of her.
"You mean it controls you actions?"
"Partially -- but it also obeys your commands."
Regarding Rey's parentage. I believe there is more yet to this than "nobodies". I chalk that comment up to a combination of Ben trying to gaslight Rey and his own belief based on what he feels from her. I don't think that ship departing is a false memory. I also stand by the not-included-in-the-final-cut-of-TFA shot of a woman and a tall being handing Rey off to Unkar Plutt at the foot of the boarding ramp of what was a decently sized freighter-y ship. I don't think JJ had a grand plan, and I think he's fine with what Rian did because where Rey's at with her parentage currently is what is right for this stage of her journey. More might be revealed. It might not. It might be saved for a novel or something.
And speaking of. "Why is she so strong with the Force/Why did the Force 'choose' her?" Thanks to the Aftermath trilogy of novels, we know that she set up housekeeping on Jakku (after leaving Unkar Plutt's "care") pretty much on top of one of Palpatine's observatories. Between the Sith artifacts kept there and the borehole to the planet's core, there's a strong likelihood some serious Force stuff was going on there. Could be relevant. Maybe we'll see.
--Jonah
P.S. I don't get the Rose hate. She is a straightforward, hard-working member of the Resistance who was tired of being numbered among the downtrodden masses. She's not a princess or a senator or a bounty hunter. She's a maintenance worker tasked with keeping unauthorized personnel out of the escape pods. She is in awe of people like Leia and Poe and is very aware of all the recent exciting goings-on with the defected First Order Stormtrooper and the mysterious scavenger who knows how to find Luke Skywalker. She's a background Yavin IV hangar tech given some time in the footlights instead of just being set dressing. I want to see more of her.
Yes, art should be challenging. There are enough artists out there that set out to "challenge" society, irritating and sometimes angering people. That is the goal for art in many instances.
But we have "art" and then there is "art". There is art as a means to start a discussion. E.G. Ai Weiwei and his installations. Political art that shakes people up and is meant to.
Then there is art that irritates people because it is a new approach to old themes. A lot of the turn of the 19th century artist did that. Impressionists for example. Van Gogh, Toulouse-Lautrec and a lot more. They wanted to bring their artistic view onto life into a medium that had stagnated for quite some time.
Later Picasso started out the same and became political as well. Dali even ventured into movie making as an art form.
And then there is art that wants to enrich people´s lifes, being created by the artists for sheer enjoyment. I do not think that any of them set out to "create the ultimate master piece" but simply to create a piece of art as good as they can.
I think that a topic or theme like Star Wars should not and cannot be approached like a political topic. It has its own theme, "good vs. evil". Telling an interesting story about that is IMO tough enough these days. Not to speak of incorporating lore of the last 40 years.
Setting out from the start to irritate people just to be either praised or critizised is IMO a very unripe approach to art if it is not meant to be political. IMO you should try to create something interesting and in a commercial environment something commercially successful (which is pretty easy with Star Wars), snd then the results will speak for yourself. Putting obviously stupid scenes into a movie, knowing that people ARE going to be really irritated and irated about, is really, really childish. It really is like lifting the finger towards the general audience, knowingly taking people out of the movie. On an emotional level, and art is usually about creating emotions, I felt left alone and abandoned. Disconnected, left behind. Where a renowned artist and director IMO tries to pick his audience up I felt I was watching a students movie where the director has a lof of fun messing around with the audiences heads and hearts.
The Rian-Johnson-Interview was made during the making of "Brick". I think it was taken out of context. It shows a young director who obviously is still insecure about his place in the movie world. He actually says something like "I make the movie that I want to make and I don´t care for criticism." at least that is what I read out of it. If he is prepared to accept that people say "worst movie I have ever seen" he IMO is not really confident regarding his own "movie language". I haven´t seen brick, just an analysis of it on youtube, but I can see a lot of the movie making mistakes in it that I found in EP8. Similar approaches to characters and pacing and editing and story telling in general. My personal conclusion is that Rian Johnson is not a seasoned director, he still lacks the routine to create a block buster movie. Completely different from Gareth Edwards Rogue One. And R1 was not a perfect movie, but IMO much more coherent than EP8, with a better understanding of the emotional texture of a star wars movie. Watered down by the studio maybe, so maybe we had the studios level both movies, but IMO Gareth Edwards still delivered the better piece of art.
Solo4114
Master Member
I'm still waiting for my copy of TLJ to arrive from Amazon (was hoping for today, but I think it'll be next week). So, admittedly, I haven't rewatched it yet, and only saw it the once in the theater. That said, from my recollection, TFA doesn't resolve things quite as neatly as you describe, and TLJ does more to explore this.
Rey at the end of TFA is resolved to go find Luke and get him to help the Resistance. The very last image of the film is her standing there, handing the lightsabre towards him, with a plaintive expression on her face. "Please. Take this. Help us. Save us." In essence, that's Rey again rejecting the "call to adventure." She's not coming to him and saying "The sabre has chosen me, and I need you to train me so I can go save everyone." She's saying "Here's your weapon. Please, save us like you did before." In a sense, Luke is truly in the Obi-Wan position, and Rey is kinda being Leia's message in ANH, begging the old warrior to come to the Resistance's aid once again.
What she's not doing is accepting her role in this fight, or in the galaxy. Or at least, not completely. She's looking to the older generation to save her, and the older generation...is sitting this one out. There's also a part of her that, even if she isn't going to go back to Jakku and keep waiting, is still sitting there, hoping that her parents will return.
And, of course, she doubts herself, she questions her own abilities and why she has them, etc. All of that is addressed in the cave sequence, and is, I think, strongly implied by the fact that she asks "Who are my parents?" She's looking for the big reveal, and the big reveal is...herself. I also don't see her as carrying on as before after that point. It's at that point that she not only decides to ignore Luke and forge her own path, but also where she actively chooses to confront Ben in the hopes of swaying him back to the light. In essence, she takes up the sabre herself, and goes off to fulfill the role she has been given, instead of looking to Luke to do it.
See, I disagree here, because after this, she leaves Ach-To, goes to Ben, tries to convince him to turn, and almost succeeds. She doesn't go to fight him or to destroy Snoke. She goes to turn Ben back. And then she goes to save what remains of the Resistance after that, using her Jedi powers to do so. She doesn't leave simply because she's tired of Luke's whining and determination to let the Jedi die. She leaves because she realizes it's hopeless to try to convince Luke to save everyone, because Luke's basically useless in his current state, won't listen, won't help, and certainly won't come save the Resistance. So, it's up to her, and off she goes.
Ok, so, basically, it's pretty well established that Rey has her powers because "The Force chose her." I don't think that's been explicitly stated yet in film, but it's strongly implied. But that leaves the question of "Ok, so...why her?" And for that matter, why the stable boy, who, aside from Ben and Rey, is the only other Force wielder out there that we know of?
I think the answer lies in the role the Force plays in establishing a kind of balance in the universe. Ben has embraced (mostly) evil, and of course there is (was) Snoke, too. Backing them up are the Knights of Ren (all say in unison "Ren!") and the might of the First Order. So, evil's got quite the leg up, and good has been knocked on its ass. Or so it seems.
Rey, I think, is inherently good. And it's that reason why the Force awakens in her. There may be other factors that influence it, but I think Rey is ultimately an agent of goodness in the universe, and has been gifted these incredible powers because of it.
Now, at first blush, it may seem that Rey's "goodness" is merely a result of the fact that she's occupying the "good" position in these films. Just as how people felt like the friendships of TFA seemed to form too hastily to be quite genuine, Rey's "goodness" may feel artificial and more a result of position than actual behavior. But I see it differently, especially after TLJ. Rey was abandoned by her parents, left alone to fend for herself in a harsh and hostile world, where she clearly had to fight to survive and scrabble out a meager existence. On Jakku, she was constantly reminded of her powerlessness and the fact that her parents didn't love her and literally sold her for drinking money (as we later find out).
Rey has every reason in the world to burn the galaxy to cinders, if given the ability to do so. She has every reason to sell BB-8 for extra rations, to abandon Finn, and to refuse to help return the droid to the Resistance. In TLJ, she has every reason to take up Ben's offer to join him, too, or simply reason enough to say "Well **** it, then. If you, Luke, won't get off your duff and do something, then I'm off and I'm done with the lot of you." Rey has every reason to embrace evil, basically. And yet, at every turn, she chooses not to.
That's NOT to say that she doesn't touch the Dark Side, though. When Rey fights, she clearly fights with passion, even fury. But it doesn't seem like she ever gives into it. She channels it into goodness, instead. She furiously fights the Praetorians with Ben, but she's doing it to save Ben and to save the Resistance. Moreover, she wasn't really afraid to go into the Dark Side cave on Ach-To. That, I think, is really different from what we've seen before, and suggests to me that we're moving away from the Light Side/Dark Side dichotomy, and towards a place where a Jedi can exist in between the two, but still serve good ultimately.
In a way, this rejects much of what Yoda taught, that fear, anger, and hatred all lead to the Dark Side and to evil. In essence, that fear, hatred, and anger are evil. But they aren't. Not all the time, anyway. They're emotions, and emotions themselves have no goodness or evil about them. What matters is what you do, why you do it, and whom or what it ultimately serves. Ben's desire to move beyond the past isn't evil, nor is his anger or passion about it. What's evil is that he's willing to murder anyone in his way, including his parents, to do so. But the fact that he feels anger alone doesn't make him evil. The issue is that anger can often lead to the temptation to embrace evil, in the believe that such embrace is justified because of what made you angry. "It's alright for me to do this, because XYZ thing infuriated me." Rey instead chooses to help others, even if she struggles with her choices. Her instincts, ultimately, always steer towards the good and finding it in others. THAT is why the Force chose her.
It's why, I suspect, we see the stable boy at the end of TLJ, too. He's in a similar position, and helps Rose and Finn and the horse thingies. He has every reason to hate and to use his power to free himself and seek bloody vengeance upon those who pushed him around, but instead, he chooses to help strangers. We'll see if this all pans out, but that's my theory. The Force picked Rey, because she is an intrinsically good person.
I think there could be more to it...but I kinda hope not, actually. At this point, it would seem like too much of a "course correction" done just to placate irate fans, and I'd question how organic it was to the story itself. Plus, in the end, it only really matters to the audience, unless it's revealed in a way that somehow alters things for Rey. But I don't see that as an issue from here on out. Really, what Rian did was to resolve a lot of the conflict within the characters and to set up the resolution of a conflict between the characters in the coming film (although jury's still out on Ben -- I could see a heel faceturn coming in Ep. IX).
Ditto. I don't get it either. I mean, I kinda get people disliking the fangirl response to Finn, but her character seems basically genuine to me. She's a nobody who became a somebody, just like Rey and Finn.
I think that Johnson didn't set out to irritate people, exactly, but rather to challenge the stagnation that had arisen in Star Wars. The EU material really suggested a danger of stagnation. From constant superweapon threats to yet another Sith/Dark Jedi running amok, to characters who seemed frozen in amber or bad caricatures of their OT selves, you saw a ton of the same stuff happening over and over again with only minor details changed and most of it not having any greater meaning. When they tried to really change things up, they ended up doing things that REALLY didn't fit (e.g. the Vong, who always sounded to me like some biological version of the Borg).
I also think there is a strong impulse in fandom to want to repeat the past, even as people say they want something different. This isn't unique to Star Wars, but rather is common across most franchises, I think. When there's a sequel that's going to be made, there always seems to be an impulse to "make it the same, only different." I don't think people really know what that looks like in reality, but they have sort of a gut feeling about wanting it to be the same as before, but also feel fresh and new. While I don't think that's impossible to do, I think it's extremely difficult to pull off well. Moreover, it lends itself to endless iteration to the point where the franchise feels old, stale, and boring.
Characters have to evolve. As does the setting. Star Wars cannot perpetually remain plucky underdogs fighting a tyrannical oppressive power structure that itself is supported by dudes in white armor and evil red-laser-sword-wielding guys in black outfits. If that's all it ever is, if every story is just some riff on the OT, then I'd say you have maybe one to two cycles of repetition available before the whole thing collapses under the weight of the audience's apathy.
Johnson's film evolved Star Wars, I think. Sure, it retains and references a lot of what came before, but it also pushes things in new directions. I think there's a real sense that "grey" Jedi could really become a thing, and that the Dark/Light dichotomy might not hold forever. (Although good/evil will.) I think the instinct of fandom to focus on bloodlines was effectively killed off, which is good as well. Really, there's just an instinct to repeat, because the repetition creates instant familiarity. But it also creates stagnation, and the only way to avoid that is to change things, and not just at the edges.
Oh come on. If you can say that the "milking the sea cow and wiping off the milk beard" or Rey´s reaction to a shirtless Kylo Ren, or the sudden disposal of the alleged main villain did not irritate you, or Rey suddenly being painted without an important or at least interesting heritage, then you are a better man than I am. Which of course is possible. But I think most of the people WERE irritated by those points.
Okay. Isn´t the aforementioned what we were served in TLJ? Superweapon? Check. Sith/Darksider running amok? Check. Caricatures of OT characters? Double. Check.
Resulting in my perception of the movie as a failure regarding Star Wars "feeling" and understanding of the mechanics.
We NEED repetition. It gives us security. In doses, okay. But still, a skilled artist can repeat the same theme or topic again and again without ever boring us. See e.g. Monet. Or soap operas. Oh, wait...
In a character driven movie, the characters need to evolve. In an adventure, the hero needs to evolve to complete his journey. AND THERE WE HAVE IT! Luke DID evolve, so did Han and Leia. And even Darth Vader. And with EP8 ALL of their stories are reset. Set to zero. I did have a problem with Han being a bad dad and husband. Granted, it may have been in his character. But heck, do we need to see that? It probably is in his character to have some booze and it definitely is in his character to charm the ladies (established already in ANH), but dang, do we need to see that? Does it fulfill anyones desires, longings for an escape from reality to see their heroes fail miserably? NO. And that is a HUGE, HUGE mistake made in Episode 8. Luke redeems himself in the end, and I can feel that Rian Johnson wanted to break him down and then rebuild him. But MAN did he IMO do a sloppy job there. And not fitting into the LARGER story, too. Same goes for Han and Leia, who both failed miserably at raising their son and their careers.
The "grey" Jedi concept is something that you can explore in a TV SERIES. And here is a point that I had already stated before somewhere, but I feel it is fitting herein as well.
Where the OT was a series of movies, the ST is a TV mini-series. OT: spanning time of around six to nine years, right? ST: a time span under a week. HOW can we expect to see LARGE character developments? Luke ANH to ESB and then to ROTJ: IMO HUGE development, even within the movies, IMO BELIEVABLE (sorry for the capitals). The change in character that we saw in Poe Dameron e.g., totally stupid. Same goes for Finn.
I am ALL for change and against stagnation. But even a necessary change in direction in a movie franchise needs to follow rules, and if not the rules of the established cinematic universe then at least established rules in story telling and movie making.
Simply saying "change is good" or "its an artistic decision" or "the artist has the right to..." is on the same level as saying "we agree to disagree", IMO a childish and cheap way to ignore criticism.
Solo4114
Master Member
I wasn't bothered by that stuff at all, actually. I laughed at some parts, I went "Ewwww" at the walrus things, and I loved the fact that her heritage ended up being unimportant. My supposition was that JJ created a "mystery" where none needed to exist, because that's his style (and I hate that part of his style). So, I was glad to see it dispatched.
I know that people were irritated, but I would bet he thought those moments were fun, funny, or interesting, not that he was saying "SUCK IT YOU NOSTALGIA-BENIGHTED MORONS!!!!"
What was the superweapon? Do you mean the big ship? Eh, I see that less as a superweapon. I'm thinking more about stuff like the Death Star I and II, the Sun Crusher, the Darksaber (from the novels), the Galaxy Gun, the Eclipse Class Star Destroyer With Death Star Laser Built In, etc. The worst of the EU, really (in my opinion).
I also don't see the characters as caricatures of themselves. Rather, I see them as being exactly who I'd expect them to be based on the events that happened in their lives. The real problem is...we didn't see that. Instead, fans had DECADES of backstory that they had to mentally wall off. I'm not saying everyone was sitting around saying "This is all wrong! Mara Jade should be here!" but rather that fans spent decades with one version of the characters in their minds. Whether that's from only watching the OT over and over and over again, or from engrossing themselves in the EU, their vision of the character ossified into exactly what was depicted, and nothing else. I think that's understandable, but it's also kind of a narrow reading of the characters. If other events happen (such as the fall of the Republic and the tragedy of Ben Solo), I could see where the "big three" ended up exactly where and who they are in the sequel trilogy.
Sorry, did you mean Ep. 7? I agree that all their stories "reset" in Episode 7 (although I guess we didn't really know Luke's story in full until 8), but that's directly the fault of LFL and JJ for wanting to bring the OT heroes back. There was kinda no way around that.
I don't disagree with you. But I think the point here was that the sequel trilogy was always going to be about the new trilogy's stars. Bringing the OT heroes in provided that touchstone with the "Star Wars" that mass audiences know, but it also meant that it was highly likely the heroes would die or be weakened in some way. Put simply, you can't have galaxy-wide conflict without undoing the victory at Endor somehow. You can't have the OT heroes ride off into the sunset AND have them come back for the next big fight. (Side note: this is why I view Indiana Jones as a TRILOGY -- he rides off into the sunset and....we're done. The answer to "And then what happened?" is "They lived happily ever after. Now, go to bed.")
The fundamental problem is not what Episode 8 did, but rather what Episode 7 did, and what the decision to set the sequel trilogy within the lifetimes of -- or even one or two generations after -- the OT heroes did. Episode 8 provides much of the backstory that was hinted at in Episode 7, but including them at all basically undermines the "happily ever after" vibe of ROTJ's ewok jamboree at the end. "Celebrate the love!........buuuuuut watch out for those Neo-Space-Nazis..." That's not Rian Johnson's fault, though. That's the entire story group's fault. I get why they did it, too. It's tough to relaunch Star Wars without the OT characters, and from a business perspective, I think it makes sense. But once they announced it, a part of me knew the OT heroes that were frozen in my mind at the end of ROTJ wouldn't stick around.
That said, I've really loved the portrayals of all three. Ford was totally believable as a lousy dad who wanted to make amends, and still felt like Han Solo. Hamill...man, he gave his best performance that I've EVER seen. Carrie Fisher was bittersweet but wonderful to watch, too. I'm also not so sure that we've seen the last of Luke, although time will tell.
Hang on, why is that only appropriate to a TV series? I don't see any reason you can't explore it in a film other than "Because that's the way it's always been, and the TV shows are sort of second-tier canon."
I get what you're saying, but I think what you're really focusing on is the time between movies and the things that supposedly happened off screen. On-screen, events usually seemed to be...well, it's never 100% clear, but it doesn't seem like Luke had much training on Dagobah. Unless the Falcon was flying at sublight speeds to Bespin for, like 4 months, and even then, that's barely anything. It seems more like a week, really. In each movie, the events seem to last a week. Unless, of course, time isn't quite as...hmm...literal in the films.
When you start really digging into the films, and the timeline of events within them, you end up coming away with the sense that events move "at the speed of plot," and not in any actual sense of time that is at all realistic. You have a 2-2.5 hour film that covers....uh....some span of time for the characters. (Note: even on a TV show, time gets played with A LOT. Apparently Dany Targaeryan and her dragons have their own hyperdrives, since they're able to move from the southeast of Westeros to north beyond the Wall in a VERY short time. Ships seem to travel quite quickly, too...) I gave up long ago on trying to impose any real sense of time on the characters. Instead, I look to the experiences they have and question whether it makes sense that those experiences would lead them to the place they ultimately end up.
Change IS good, if the alternative is stagnation and the death of the art form. Not all changes are good changes, though. I'm of the opinion that the changes in TLJ were good. I get why some might disagree, though. (And I don't get why some others disagree, since not everyone thinks the changes weren't good for the same reason.) I don't think "The artist has the right" is a real response, though, as much as it is a deflection. I haven't advanced that argument, and wouldn't. Rian or George or anyone else's right to do XYZ with a product doesn't insulate them from criticism. Same goes for "It's an artistic decision." If that's all someone's willing to say in response, then what's the point of having a conversation in the first place. I'm fine disagreeing with folks, but I much more enjoy the back and forth where we explain our positions. Even if we don't come to an agreement in the end, it's still interesting to hear people's perspectives.
Most of your criticisms are ones that are familiar to me. I understand where they come from, I think, and although I disagree with them, I do sympathize with the disappointment. I've mentioned before my own reaction to the PT when it first came out, and my frustration at the direction of the franchise thereafter. I got past that, and even managed to find real enjoyment in some PT era stuff, but it took a while and it definitely took moving past that sense of disappointment. I hope you and others can, because I think this franchise is actually going to put out some pretty terrific stuff over the coming years (and probably also some mediocre stuff, but whatever).
mattycsi
Master Member
That throne room fight one is hideous. The guard totally slices her with the blade in his left hand, which then totally disappears as his hand arcs past.
His left hand is completely free to stab, slash or strike her down at any point, in a real fight she is dead.
Such poor choreography, shows how little thought and care went into this movie.
Almost as bad as not filling and sanding mold lines in props
sztriki
Sr Member
No, not completely, but the basics are laid down there and TLJ does not develop her as much as she would need to be. Imagine if Luke's main gripe in ESB was still whether or not he would go to Tosche station. Exaggerating of course, but you get, what I mean.
If we take the continuum in TLJ for granted meaning that Luke's expression in TFA said "oh, great, that junk, lemme just throw it off the cliff" (which it obviously didn't) then following the logic her face said "I need you to teach me so I can find my place".
I meant Rey carrying on as business as usual after the revelation as after Kylo told her about the parents, not the cave scene. Essentially you're saying what I suggested, have the revelation for the audience made in that cave earlier in the movie so it can be a more pivotal concept that clearly gives her motivation to do things. I might be obtuse but the cave scene did not clarify the answer to the lineage question. It hinted, foreshadowed, but if you turned the movie off there (wish I did, haha) you wouldn't know. Same as in Empire, yes it does foreshadow what's to come, but you wouldn't know it unless you finished the movie. So what I suggested is have a more straightforward answer there and then you can be more invested in her leaving Ireland.
That's good thinking, after all the movie was called Force Awakens. This balance business is why I think that Ep9 will probably have a more bittersweet ending.
Not sure why you mean it should be kep within a TV series. Nevertheless, it sure as hell wasn't explored in the movies coz As it was mentioned before, Rey is inherently good, and unlike Luke she had absolutely no sign of falter, temptation or anything.
Oh god, now I have PTSD from all the rubbish I read when I was 14...:lol
That's probably done deliberately to echo the Luke V2 from ROTJ. I'm certain of it. :lol
Nitz146
Well-Known Member
Yes, I noticed this with her staff in a few other scenes in TLJ. With a budget as big as SW has, I'm surprised they left such crappy prop work pass. Par for the course with this movie I guess.
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