Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

Luke's hand not dropping is not an issue if you go with the 'he was always a ghost on the island' theory.

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jlee562 said:

Well, there are cultural differences sure, but I don't think the democratic tendencies of the Rebels are the primary driver of why Star Wars is not huge in China. As the linked article points out, the OT was not really a thing in China, which in 1977, was still relatively closed off.
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Boy am I glad that we don´t have Chinese Super Millionaires collecting vintage Kenner toys

If anybody wants to make sense out of the Last Jedi, take all sense away from ESB.

Bryancd said:

Which is exactly what they have retained Rian Johnson to create, an entirely new series of films devoid of the Saga story tropes. In evaluating the franchise value I see them diversifying the portfolio of films, leveraging the merchandising, Star Wars is the largest selling toy brand in the world, creating touch points for consumers at the theme parks and hotels and cruises, supporting their new streaming service with their film catalogue including Fox films and using a live action and continued animated showd to drive subscriber growth. I could go on but this is a glimpse at their long term strategy with Star Wars.

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Bryancd, whilst I have often admired your business acumen and foresight, no matter how I look at how the franchise has been handled this far I don't see any strong cohesive strategy.
Yes, I understand that thats what they want to do with the entire Star Wars IP, but there is a vast difference between identifying and setting your goals and how talented and competent you are at achieving them.
Thats what I don't see ,read or hear.
Instead we get contradictory evidence such as:
"Hey, I was left entirely to myself to go write what I wanted , there were no restraints ,guidelines or need to follow the last guy, and the next guy after me does what he wants ."
Yet set against that are the constantly reported conflicts between the studio and the directors that has seen several of them leaving before films have even been shot or even completed , with a huge amount of studio control imposed (R1 and Solo). It makes quite unsettling reading and its counter productive. What dIrector will feel confident and safe shooting an SW movie now ? The answer is probably not many, which is why they struggled to find anyone for IX.
And thats the problem for me. You constantly talkaway alot of these issues about the stories and production of these films as if they were nothing really to concern anybody and yet are pretty critical of many reasonable observations to the contrary . When I raised the fact that out of nowhere back in "The Force Awakens" thread hyperspace tracking was possible this is what you said:

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Bryancd said:

Boy, mate, I have to say I didn't give a toss about the whole ship tracking thing.

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kristen jones said:

Mountains from molehills, I'd say. :rolleyes

How many times... HOW MANY TIMES did Star trek introduce some new "tech" on the fly for plot points? And yet that is defended as part of the chemistry of the show.

Because *YOU* decided that ships shouldn't be able to be tracked by their signatures, that somehow makes it bad wrting? Well i suppose it does from *YOUR* perspective... but that I think is what has been lost sight of here: it's just an opinion. And clearly it isn't one that is widely shared in this group, so one ought not wonder that it is being met with resistance.

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So the unconditional and uncritical acceptance of many things that are done in the name of changing the franchise (because it still makes alot of money) is not entirely fair or healthy for the future of the series going forward.

@CutThumb I’m still not critical of story contrivances that don’t really matter to the plot. These are simple fantasy films and I evaluate them based on that expectation. My only bias is that I sit down to watch looking to enjoy myself, not get side tracke by the dogma of previous canon.

In regards to how they have managed the IP to date, here’s my speculation what they think internally. They have had three films which by all the metrics they are most concerned with have been hugely successful. They consider box office, critical and fan reaction, and how the ancillary material (toys, other media) sales. TFA and R1 succeeded on all fronts. TLJ has had conflicting fan reactions, you have poor data from RT but better numbers from places like Cinemascore. If the box office was poor it would validate the RT audience data but that doesn’t seem to be the case. We can take shots at what we perceive as internal creative conflicts but the results are what matters. Perhaps Solo falls flat, but we are far from a situation wherein the long term viability of the franchise is in actual jeapordy.

I should add Hasbro has reported TFA and R1 sales as being strong, it’s still unknown how TLJ product is selling.

sztriki said:

This is the thing I agree in theory with the Disney-direction is that we DO need to move on from those characters. And we DO need to move on from the main conflict too. I liked TFA because of the new characters, that movie could have worked if they completely ignore the original three or if they are just talked about or mentioned. Execution however...

TLJ so loudly promotes that "it's not Luke's or Leia's story anymore, it's time to move on" yet spends most of the film getting Leia heavily involved in most things and putting Luke as a character and his redemption in the very centre of the story whereas TFA did a much better job of sticking with the new characters without putting that much emphasis on the old gang.

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Setting aside the issue of how TLJ vs. TFA handles the old cahracters, I abslutely think we need to move past the Jedi/Sith, Republic/Empire (or Ersatz Empire), OT heroes and their parents stuff.

There are only so many stories you can tell in that framework before it all just feels kinda samey and dull. You can still keep the settings/eras, but you have to vary the types of stories.

The way I see it, the "saga" films serve as the setup for the new state of the universe. Each time you do that, you provide a backdrop against which to tell more stories which don't necessarily have to do with the specific circumstances depicted in the films. Kinda like Rogue One. But you could go even farther afield and tell stories completely unrelated to the larger struggle (rather than "Here's the backstory on the opening crawl...").

I'll be honest here. When the new movies were announced and the old cast was gonna be in it, I knew what direction they'd head. No "happily ever after" for any of them, and likely we'd be watching one or all of them die in the new films. This should have been patently obvious to most folks. You can't tell new stories abotu new characters with these folks lurking around in the background. The question will always be "But why didn't so and so just come and help them?!" and no answer would be 100% believable. "Even if that's the case, you'd think they'd have tried to do it!" You see it even now with people's discussion of Luke's retreat to Ach-To. "Why didn't Luke even try to help? Even with the story they told, he should have gone down fighting!" Basically, you can't have your old heroes outshine your new ones, and if the new ones outshine the old ones, it's either because the old ones have been diminished, or because they're dead. Or both, as the case has proven to be so far.

My original idea for what I'd like to see was to fling the story several hundred years into the future (which would also potentially have preserved the EU for those who wanted to), some 3+ generations beyond the lives of the OT heroes. That way, the old school heroes would get their "happily ever after," you wouldn't have yet more stormtroopers and tie fighters and Evil Empires, there'd be no Sith, either. I told myself that such a story would still be recognizably "star wars" if it had enough touchstones, but you know what? It would've been like JJ Trek. You'd have the veneer of Star Wars (with blasters and lightsabres and Jedi), but no connection to the soul of it. OR at least it'd be a LOT harder to establish that connection. I think the new films are acting as a kind of bridge between the old and what is to come. TFA had one foot very firmly planted in the OT era. TLJ has that foot almost moved out of it. I can see where the change is jarring for many, but the change is necessary or the franchise will simply retell the same story over and over and over until people completely lose interest.

Some more context on performance and Disney expectations. This is also supported by Wall Street analysts expectations.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme...jedi-got-slammed-for-performing-as-predicted/

DaddyfromNaboo said:

Boy am I glad that we don´t have Chinese Super Millionaires collecting vintage Kenner toys

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Not yet anyways...

There's a huge demand in Japan for vintage American goods (musical instruments, denim, Stetson hats), and China is becoming a huge market for wine importation now. It may only be a matter of time.

Solo4114 said:

TFA had one foot very firmly planted in the OT era. TLJ has that foot almost moved out of it. I can see where the change is jarring for many, but the change is necessary or the franchise will simply retell the same story over and over and over until people completely lose interest.

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I whole-heartedly agree with everything that you said (especially the JJ Trek comment, very good point there) until this point because for me TLJ actually consolidated the original setup and ideas and cut most ties that would move that foot out of the OT except for Luke physically dying.
I have to admit, when that damn lightsaber started to flicker in TFA in the snow like most I thought that would be Luke's entrance, but unlike most mine was that eyerolling type, like "oh right, here comes Luke". And had he appeared there he would have stolen all the thunder of the new characters, so I was actually glad it was Rey.

I think the problem everyone has with Luke, was not the fact that he is gone, but the way.

Us "old timer OT fans", have received, throughout the movies, a beautiful death of all our heros. From Padme giving her last breath as she gives birth, to Anakin "dying" and becoming Vadar, from Yoda, who fought heroically and peacefully fading away, to Vadar being ritually cremated by his son. Even Han, betrayed by his own son, last effort to show him his love.

Luke just disapears, thats it.. He wasnt really there against Kylo and seemed not really there on Ahch-To. So WTH?.. Is he really dead? If he is....wow, what a bunch of crock.

I'm not even going to touch the Leia "death that should have been"

jlee562 said:

Not yet anyways...

There's a huge demand in Japan for vintage American goods (musical instruments, denim, Stetson hats), and China is becoming a huge market for wine importation now. It may only be a matter of time.

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DarthLee said:

I think the problem everyone has with Luke, was not the fact that he is gone, but the way.

Us "old timer OT fans", have received, throughout the movies, a beautiful death of all our heros. From Padme giving her last breath as she gives birth, to Anakin "dying" and becoming Vadar, from Yoda, who fought heroically and peacefully fading away, to Vadar being ritually cremated by his son. Even Han, betrayed by his own son, last effort to show him his love.

Luke just disapears, thats it.. He wasnt really there against Kylo and seemed not really there on Ahch-To. So WTH?.. Is he really dead? If he is....wow, what a bunch of crock.

I'm not even going to touch the Leia "death that should have been"

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I think within the film they went to lengths to frame Luke’s sacrifice at the end as being a means to facilitate the Rebel escape and to be the spark that lights the fire as said in film. I thought that was very noble, he becomes A New Hope yet again.

Regarding Leia, Rian has said that if they killed her in space all of her performance would have had to been cut and I agree that would have been a terrible shame.

Bryancd said:

I think within the film they went to lengths to frame Luke’s sacrifice at the end as being a means to facilitate the Rebel escape and to be the spark that lights the fire as said in film. I thought that was very noble, he becomes A New Hope yet again.

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Ok.....

Regarding Leia, Rian has said that if they killed her in space all of her performance would have had to been cut and I agree that would have been a terrible shame.

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Her death was very sad and very unexpected. BUt..

Now their option is to have a CG version of her to continue. Who will voice her? CG versions of humans never worked out too well. Especially when there alot of interaction with live cast. Curious to see how they will do it. As well made as Smeagol was, there was still a noticeable difference, between him a Frodo.

DarthLee said:

Ok.....



He death was very sad and very unexpected. BUt..

Now their option is to have a CG version of her to continue. Who will voice her? CG versions of humans never worked out too well. Especially when there alot of interaction with live cast. Curious to see how they will do it. As well made as Smeagol was, there was still a noticeable difference, between him a Frodo.

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Boy, you got me. They have said no CGI or recasting but depending on what JJ has in mind that might change. Otherwise have IX start many years post XIII and have her die offscreen and address it in the crawl.

Pretty sure Kennedy already said they weren't going to to a digital Leia in IX.

Bryancd said:

Boy, you got me. They have said no CGI or recasting but depending on what JJ has in mind that might change. Otherwise have IX start many years post XIII and have her die offscreen and address it in the crawl.

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Do her some justice and at least try to have her passing more meaningful than in the crawl. Please..

I've tried pretty hard to figure out how they can most effectively tie up Leia without Carrie around. They can't and won't please everybody. I really think the best way would have had her go out in 9. Putting her in the crawl reduces her to a line of text. CGI and you undermine the performance she just gave in Ep8. As much as I disliked 8, she did a fine job of acting in this one.

They don't have the ability to make Leia's arc and character end in a satisfying way.

joshvanrad said:

I've tried pretty hard to figure out how they can most effectively tie up Leia without Carrie around. They can't and won't please everybody. I really think the best way would have had her go out in 9. Putting her in the crawl reduces her to a line of text. CGI and you undermine the performance she just gave in Ep8. As much as I disliked 8, she did a fine job of acting in this one.

They don't have the ability to make Leia's arc and character end in a satisfying way.

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Thats why she should have died in space. Her performance post Superman wasnt really that big a deal in my opinion. Seeing Luke and Leia together again was kind of cool, but I would have rather had Leia die in space. Makes more sense. Now what the hell are they going to do? Its stupid. Rian is a *******.

I agree with that first part. It gets a little heated past that, but I agree that she should have died in space. It would have acted as a unifying event for the resistance and it was one of the few parts of the movie that legitimately took me by surprise. I was blown away that Leia could have gone out like that. Then Leia Poppins happened and it totally ruined the impact of that scene.

Well they could always have Leia trade places with Luke in the after life, except instead of an older Mark Hamill we get a younger Sebastian Stan playing Luke Skywalker.

-OWK

I thought Carrie did such a good job in TLJ that it would have been a disservice to her to have any of it cut so I can see why they didn't kill her off. Plus we needed (or I needed) to have that scene at the end with Luke and Leia. That being said, I'm not sure how their going to pull off Leia' s death. Maybe use some cut footage from TLJ somehow? JJ's got a big task on his hands.