Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
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gedmac66
Sr Member
I've let the dust settle further and made a brief alternate observation on what I feel could have not so much saved it as a film, but at least just classify it as a weak and mediocre story, and yet be something we can just move on with and get to the next chapter, while keeping a sense of some mystery and not wanting to dig for more information before Episode 9's release.
It really boils down to just ONE thing.... Luke's death. Leave that ONE thing out and the film with all of it's mega flaws would leave it open-ended enough to want to know what happens next.
I don't want to rehash all the details of things that didn't work in the movie that have been discussed at nauseum. I really think TLJ could have been fairly agreed to be more judged as something we could mostly say to the effect of, "That was a mess and now just looking to see how this story wraps up and hope it's not like this for Episode 9." (I say most because i'm being fair to those who loved it and that's fine). But for the ones who have many problems with it, simply cutting the part where Luke becomes one with the force is the ultimate premature END to this story in my opinion.
At VERY least we could all be looking forward to this passage of time assuming Luke goes off with Rey to further train her in the ways of the force. We would go in with that expectation to at least know the most powerful Jedi ever is now mentoring this next generation of Jedi and setting the tone for what mysterious powers she's going to possess. Meanwhile Kylo Ren is still on the hunt and becoming more powerful in his position and causing more turmoil. It's at least a firm base to start on for Episode 9. Instead we're left with that one inkling of a spark to ignite the fire in the last episode that currently feels to cease of existence.
So to summarize... I'm not saying this cut would make TLJ a better movie, but this little piece of Skywalker's death being removed would make a heck of a lot more sense in serving as a pillar for how Episode 9 sets up. Even if Luke passed in the next film, fine... but it would probably in a blaze of glory instead of how it was done in Episode 8.
We're now all to assume Rey just magically becomes this amazingly skilled Jedi leader/master/something who will succeed Luke who barely begun to train her. And that stacked on top of the Supreme Leader Snoke killed off before explaining his deal in all this are just 2 major blows that leave many of us really wondering what is left to tell that is going to wrap up a story that appears to be wrapped.
Perhaps they need to nix the tradition of trilogies and just keep these episodes coming as a continuing story so that it leaves more question as to who really would live or die and when. There'd be no knowing if say Kylo was going to die in Episode 9 or 11, or at all for example.
It really boils down to just ONE thing.... Luke's death. Leave that ONE thing out and the film with all of it's mega flaws would leave it open-ended enough to want to know what happens next.
I don't want to rehash all the details of things that didn't work in the movie that have been discussed at nauseum. I really think TLJ could have been fairly agreed to be more judged as something we could mostly say to the effect of, "That was a mess and now just looking to see how this story wraps up and hope it's not like this for Episode 9." (I say most because i'm being fair to those who loved it and that's fine). But for the ones who have many problems with it, simply cutting the part where Luke becomes one with the force is the ultimate premature END to this story in my opinion.
At VERY least we could all be looking forward to this passage of time assuming Luke goes off with Rey to further train her in the ways of the force. We would go in with that expectation to at least know the most powerful Jedi ever is now mentoring this next generation of Jedi and setting the tone for what mysterious powers she's going to possess. Meanwhile Kylo Ren is still on the hunt and becoming more powerful in his position and causing more turmoil. It's at least a firm base to start on for Episode 9. Instead we're left with that one inkling of a spark to ignite the fire in the last episode that currently feels to cease of existence.
So to summarize... I'm not saying this cut would make TLJ a better movie, but this little piece of Skywalker's death being removed would make a heck of a lot more sense in serving as a pillar for how Episode 9 sets up. Even if Luke passed in the next film, fine... but it would probably in a blaze of glory instead of how it was done in Episode 8.
We're now all to assume Rey just magically becomes this amazingly skilled Jedi leader/master/something who will succeed Luke who barely begun to train her. And that stacked on top of the Supreme Leader Snoke killed off before explaining his deal in all this are just 2 major blows that leave many of us really wondering what is left to tell that is going to wrap up a story that appears to be wrapped.
Perhaps they need to nix the tradition of trilogies and just keep these episodes coming as a continuing story so that it leaves more question as to who really would live or die and when. There'd be no knowing if say Kylo was going to die in Episode 9 or 11, or at all for example.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Star Wars has always been about a young person who is just about to become an adult. That journey of discovery of who you are. What's your place in the world.
But Patrick is saying that because, some people hate TLJ with such a passion, they will make videos yelling about it. It can't be healthy, for mind or body, to carry on to that degree.
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Why do people want Luke to go out in a violent blaze of glory? The way he went out in TLJ was almost perfect. It was on his terms, he won even in his death. And now he can come back, more powerful then Kylo Ren could ever imagine.
Solo4114
Master Member
I think it would have been more obvious how the story would move forward, yeah. I'm not sure I agree that that's necessarily a good thing, though. Personally, I like the sense of having no idea where this goes next. They could end up completely botching it, of course, but I think there's a lot more potential to do some really interesting stuff with the series.
To be fair, that's basically where we left off with Luke at the end of ROTJ. Or for that matter, between ESB and ROTJ. At the end of ESB, Luke quit his training early, ran off and got his ass kicked and his hand cut off, and built a new lightsabre. He also now has funky new powers like being able to choke a pig guard, and he's a lot better at blocking blaster bolts and lightsabre fighting. It's never really explained how. The theory is "Oh, he trained on his own in between." (Kinda like his newfound ability to move stuff with his mind coming out of nowhere between ESB and ANH after a nanosecond's worth of training by Ben.) There's no reason we can't assume that Rey -- with the copies of the Jedi texts -- couldn't teach herself the same way Luke apparently did.
I think you've nailed it here. I actually think it's basically impossible to wrap the entirety of the story introduced in TFA in a single trilogy. TLJ left too much of a power shift to make up the difference from "We're down to everyone on this single ship plus a fledgling Jedi" to "We've defeated the First Order! Yay!!!" in a single movie, and I really, really, really hope JJ doesn't try to do just that. Even with another massive time jump, it'd be too big a lift, too much of a "tell, don't show" and it would really hurt the story.
Here's my vision of the future.
Ep. IX essentially wraps up the Skywalker saga, in the sense of the Anakin-to-Luke/Leia saga. Leia will almost certainly die in this film, and Luke's spirit will likely only stick around long enough to either torture Kylo, provide some additional instruction to Rey, or a bit of both. Then he, too, will move on. The Resistance/Rebellion/New Rebellion (not sure what to call it?) will catch fire for real, while the galaxy falls more under the rule of the First Order (FO), although the seeds of the FO's eventual destruction will be sown. The Jedi will rise again, but in a new form, as taught by Rey (who may or may not actually lead them). The new Rebellion will score a major victory of some kind as well, albeit more one that signifies joining them is a viable choice, rather than one that destroys the FO outright. Much like Luke's last stand on Crait, the New Rebellion will inspire more people to join and fight back, and eventually retake the galaxy....which will be the plot of the next trilogy.
Personally, I'd like to see the FO start to splinter some from within. Perhaps a leadership struggle, involving the Knights of Ren, or at least one of them taking over and deposing Kylo Ren. I think Ben is perfectly positioned to undergo a face-turn, if not to a true hero, then at least to an anti-hero, which would be really interesting to explore as part of a redemption arc in a subsequent trilogy. I think this could happen alongside Rey's growth in power, and perhaps they and other Jedi could work to take down the FO eventually in another series of films.
Or, as you say, simply abandon the notion of trilogies, given how restrictive they are and just...you know...tell stories. Each film fits into the overarching story, moves the ball a bit, and it keeps going and evolving over time.
Joek3r said:
I went back and re-read what I typed there and it does read as violent. Wrong choice of words on my part when I meant it in a sense of justice and not going down fighting til the bitter end craziness. I had intended that to be as in if he died that it was done with more meaning and honor.
Yeah he had a moment to look off into the sun, but I truly felt he had a higher purpose in all this and not just being used as another stepping stone in the end. I would have wanted his end to be with a feeling of satisfaction of the role he played in the bigger picture of things. Granted Luke did accomplish A LOT in the OT. He was just so poorly utilized in 8.
We’ll see I guess. We all know he’s in 9 so I just have to hope JJ is doing things right by where he’s using him.
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Joek3rr
Master Member
Think of it from a in universe point of view.
Luke is a myth and a legend. He's become a almost Robin Hood, or King Arthur type. People passing around his exploits with the truth being stretched every time. Suddenly the people start hearing that this mythical person named Luke Skywalker showed up again. This time in battle with the First Order. And he fought them single handed! That myth and legend that was Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight, Rebel hero, suddenly gets a big boost. He's no longer just a myth, or just a legend. He's real, people on both sides of the battle saw him. I wonder what that is going to do to the followers of the First Order.
Anyways just a thought.
I like that thought! One thing that has changed over the years that I have welcomed is delving more into these "sides" to see the gray area where you have people like Finn question the morality of what they're doing being right or wrong. Expanding on that with Luke could make for an interesting piece of the story. SO many years pass and the legend is reality can cause quite a stir. And literally everyone doesn't even know he's gone. It could cause quite a stir in the First Order.
Solo4114
Master Member
My hope is that we'll also see more "grey" in the approach to how the Force is understood. It's not necessarily "evil" or "good" in a polar sense. It's not just that "life" is the "Light" Side and therefore is always "good," or that "death" is the "Dark" Side and therefore always bad. If you look at a yin-yang symbol, the big swirls contain an element of each other as the dots. That's kind of what I'm getting at here. There must be some kind of balance. Unfettered life eventually must consume itself. Unfettered darkness is void. There must be a balance between the two. Also, I think one's ultimate aims in how the Force is used are more important than simply which "side" of the Force you're using, and powers aren't inherently "good" or "evil." Like, "Force Choke" or "Force Lightning" aren't inherently evil, nor is levitating things inherently good. What matters is how/why you use these abilities...although the tendency with destructive powers is to use them for the purpose of subjugation and violence for one's own selfish purposes, which is evil.
For those who've seen Babylon 5, it's the difference between the Vorlons and the Shadows, order and chaos. (Don't want to say too much more there for fear of spoiling story points -- even in a 20+ year-old show.)
For those who've seen Babylon 5, it's the difference between the Vorlons and the Shadows, order and chaos. (Don't want to say too much more there for fear of spoiling story points -- even in a 20+ year-old show.)
It will take a LOT more fixing....but I applaud the effort.
On a side note—that’s a very nice detail to have fixed the lightsaber that “Spaaaaaace Ghoooooost Luke!!” was weilding but they need to fix the ignition sound the lightsaber makes. The current sound, I believe, is the Anakin saber ignition sound. The Luke ROTJ saber had that really unique saber ignition sound that was the coolest in the saga.
Also...if only something could be done about “Space Ghost Luke’s” fresh from the bottle “Just For Men” look....he should have gone with “Touch of Gray”. That jet black hair color isn’t fooling anyone Master Skywalker.
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mattycsi
Master Member
Luke: No one's ever really gone. Well, except when I thought your son was going to be, so tried to kill him in his sleep and kinda caused all this mess in the first place.
Joek3rr
Master Member
*clears throat* Did you watch TLJ? Cause that isn't what happened. Oh, wait you believe Kylo's side of the story......
mattycsi
Master Member
I paid more attention to it than you did to BTTF2!!
Luke: I sensed it building in him and during his training (ignites saber), I was left with the shame and the consequence.
Or similar. Luke's version.
He didn't ignite the saber because his torch batteries were out.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Thank you for proving my point
He didn't try to kill him. He ignites his saber but catches himself before he does anything. In Kylo's version of events, he is in mid-swing.
Joek3rr
Master Member
That's not what I'm saying. If Luke was trying to kill Ben, then he was doing a very lousy job. Let me just stand here with my mouth agape staring at my lightsaber so my nephew wakes up and sees me.
Luke was tempted, (IMO by the Dark Side, but you've heard all that
) briefly, to kill his nephew. But saw the error of what he was doing, and stopped. In Kylo's version, Luke was indeed trying to kill him, but was stopped by Kylo.
Keiko
Sr Member
Is that an actual scene from the movie, or some kind of a joke you're pulling? (I haven't seen the movie)
Kovnyn
Sr Member
Oh God, I had purged this from my memory. Yes, it's an actual scene and one I have to try to forget again.
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