I have been asked to respectfully not address certain people directly, & I haven't. That being said, if anyone talks out of their rear end so much they need a proctologist to get their teeth cleaned, I have no problem calling that either.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
- Start date
This. Also bear in mind Disney is easily over 100 billion. This movie could completely tank and the company would be fine. Obviously they don't want that, but I can't imagine anyone on the board is losing sleep over our dissatisfaction. Even if we're 100% correct... The loss of fans would be felt over the next 3 movies and even then... Look at fast and furious... The name alone can float it for a decade and Star Wars has 20X that name.
From an investor standpoint this movie could be two hours of Luke farting and still wouldn't hurt the company as much as a hurricane that goes far enough North to effect Orlando.
Mr Webber
Master Member
Absolutely true, Judging my the vast amount of comments here by all the non investors here, that is exactly what Disney have done.
On another issue, it seems by the amount of likes it generates, even my rear end has something relevant to say, even without continuing to use personal insults.
...and fun was had by all.
Well... Honestly the money= good argument feels a bit beneath this forum to be honest. But since we're having it...i can't even imagine Star Wars not being a huge money maker. Was the movie available in English? Yes? Then it's going to make a huge profit. 50 shades made 350M of a 50M budget. And that literally was fan fic. Off a book that arguably was itself, fan fiction. It's inconceivable that Star Wars wouldn't make money. Bragging about it doesn't really show business savvy, it just shows basic literacy.
Last edited:
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
All I did was detail what factually happened.
I posted, you got a notification, and chose not to respond. I chose a word that seems to match those exact actions. If you think there's a better word for it, then feel free to offer it instead of implications that people are taking things personally.
@DarthLee
I can only say that I agree with a pretty large amount of points raised in those reviews. But honestly, a discussion on the PT would just swamp this topic. Check them out. But also remember they are also only one person's opinion and he fully admits that it's fine if people like the movies more than him.
Last edited:
mattycsi
Master Member
Which they pretty much did. And that's the problem, if fans are happy to fork over cash for an already substandard product, the product will only cheapen further over time. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful phenomenon.
I don't think anyone wants Disney to fail over Star Wars or for SW to fail under Disney. We want it to thrive. But if the product becomes too unpopular and the numbers drop, it could get canned by Disney.
We're well aware that the studio revenue isn't the bottom line in earnings, however , if people aren't interested in going to see SW are they going to buy merchandise, wear T-shirts, own/stream the movies, buy the games or visit the theme park? It's a domino effect.
sztriki
Sr Member
Yup, I quote Gary Kurtz who said "Empire Strikes Back would have made the same money even if we didn't push on making it so good". Then again, as Bryan rightly said, good is subjective, so as long as the till keeps ringing...
Tan Djarka
Sr Member
I'm pretty sure most, especially Disney, don't set out to make a bad movie. The problem with Star Wars, beloved as it is:If you give them what they want, it's fan service and therefore bad. Give them something different and it's still bad. You can't make a product that will meet everyone's expectations. The main thrust of show business is still business, so if they continue making money, they will continue to produce them, good, bad, or otherwise. So cherish the ones you like and ignore the ones you don't. All this complaining isn't going to change anything.
The Brahma Bull
Sr Member
TLJ isn't bad because it's different (what it isn't at all) it's bad because of it's poor script and directing, it's wrong or not at all portrait characters and it's undergoing political messages and how bad these are implemented.
JD
Master Member
However, the initial reaction to Empire Strikes Back wasn't dissimilar to the reaction that TLJ is getting. There wasn't an internet forum like this to give disgruntled fans a vehicle to voice.
One could argue that forums like subscribe to argumentum ad populum type of fallacy (or even poison the well a bit). After my initial viewing of TLJ, I read many of the comments here and found myself questioning what I had seen. Did I miss something? I knew there were parts of the movie I didn't really care for the first time around (mostly the humor)... but, where all these naysayers right? My second and third times around cemented my position - The Last Jedi is a solid addition to the franchise and one that outdid TFA and might go down as a one of the strongest of the saga. Makes me wonder how ESB would have fared in the internet age.
Solo4114
Master Member
Here's been my experience, outside of the RPF, with respect to people's reaction to the films.
I know a lot of Star Wars fans. Not all of them are as steeped in the culture as I am, but a lot of them are. Some are OT only, some are OT but don't mind the SEs, some like the OT and PT, some know the EU although many don't. One guy was a contributing author at West End Games and wrote one of the D6 RPG sourcebooks.
With one, maybe two exceptions, everyone really enjoyed the movie. Many rank it just behind Empire as their favorite Star Wars movie. None of them -- aside from the 1-2 exceptions I mentioned -- had a problem with how the characters were handled, what they did, how they were portrayed, etc. These are all people who are about my age -- ranging from mid-to-late 30s up to early-to-mid 40s.
Several of the female fans talked about how awesome it has been to see a character like Rey on the screen, because it let's them feel like Star Wars can truly be "theirs," too. That's something they said they didn't really feel when it was about Luke and Anakin, or at least didn't feel the same way. They loved Leia, thought Padme was ok, but there wasn't that central hero in whom they could see themselves. Now there is, and they love it.
Most of them loved the messages in the film.
Most of them have said that there were a few "WTF?!" moments in the movie, and everyone has their particular criticisms, but on the whole, it didn't diminish their enjoyment of the films.
I think they're a pretty representative cross-sample of Star Wars fandom, ranging from the OT purists to the EU creators to the more casual fans who know and love the films but haven't committed them completely to memory or who don't get bent out of shape by things like the awful color timing in the SE blu-rays and DVDs or whathaveyou. And as I said, they've almost all found the film to be good-to-great.
My point here is that, while there is certainly a vocal group within the fandom that dislikes this film, and while their opinions are valid and they're entitled to them (even if I disagree with them), the notion that this film is an objective failure for all fans is simply not the case. My anecdotal experience doesn't bear that out, and the numbers don't bear that out. I recognize that the intarwebz may make it seem like there's this huge uproar against the film, but I think it's more accurate to say that it has not been met with universal acclaim but has generally been well received. The film also clearly doesn't "betray the fandom," because a goodly portion of "the fandom" seems to like it just fine.
None of this is to say that people aren't entitled to find the film unsatisfying or wish it had been different. Nor is it to say that I have no sympathy for them. As I've said, I went through feeling like "Star Wars isn't for me anymore" after the PT. But that view (1) seems to be a minority view, and (2) it's a real shame because I think there's much that one could like in this new setting.
I'll say that even if you dislike what's currently happening with the films, wait to see what's going to happen with the additional material set in the Sequel Trilogy milieu. You may find things to enjoy the way I have with the PT era. I still don't "enjoy" those films, and view them as fundamentally flawed in many ways. But I've come to appreciate the setting itself and the stories that can be told within those settings. Also, remember that Star Wars has grown exponentially in recent years, and it's not like ALL we have are the tentpole movies anymore. I think we'll see good stuff come of the ST, even if the films themselves don't fully satisfy.
I know a lot of Star Wars fans. Not all of them are as steeped in the culture as I am, but a lot of them are. Some are OT only, some are OT but don't mind the SEs, some like the OT and PT, some know the EU although many don't. One guy was a contributing author at West End Games and wrote one of the D6 RPG sourcebooks.
With one, maybe two exceptions, everyone really enjoyed the movie. Many rank it just behind Empire as their favorite Star Wars movie. None of them -- aside from the 1-2 exceptions I mentioned -- had a problem with how the characters were handled, what they did, how they were portrayed, etc. These are all people who are about my age -- ranging from mid-to-late 30s up to early-to-mid 40s.
Several of the female fans talked about how awesome it has been to see a character like Rey on the screen, because it let's them feel like Star Wars can truly be "theirs," too. That's something they said they didn't really feel when it was about Luke and Anakin, or at least didn't feel the same way. They loved Leia, thought Padme was ok, but there wasn't that central hero in whom they could see themselves. Now there is, and they love it.
Most of them loved the messages in the film.
Most of them have said that there were a few "WTF?!" moments in the movie, and everyone has their particular criticisms, but on the whole, it didn't diminish their enjoyment of the films.
I think they're a pretty representative cross-sample of Star Wars fandom, ranging from the OT purists to the EU creators to the more casual fans who know and love the films but haven't committed them completely to memory or who don't get bent out of shape by things like the awful color timing in the SE blu-rays and DVDs or whathaveyou. And as I said, they've almost all found the film to be good-to-great.
My point here is that, while there is certainly a vocal group within the fandom that dislikes this film, and while their opinions are valid and they're entitled to them (even if I disagree with them), the notion that this film is an objective failure for all fans is simply not the case. My anecdotal experience doesn't bear that out, and the numbers don't bear that out. I recognize that the intarwebz may make it seem like there's this huge uproar against the film, but I think it's more accurate to say that it has not been met with universal acclaim but has generally been well received. The film also clearly doesn't "betray the fandom," because a goodly portion of "the fandom" seems to like it just fine.
None of this is to say that people aren't entitled to find the film unsatisfying or wish it had been different. Nor is it to say that I have no sympathy for them. As I've said, I went through feeling like "Star Wars isn't for me anymore" after the PT. But that view (1) seems to be a minority view, and (2) it's a real shame because I think there's much that one could like in this new setting.
I'll say that even if you dislike what's currently happening with the films, wait to see what's going to happen with the additional material set in the Sequel Trilogy milieu. You may find things to enjoy the way I have with the PT era. I still don't "enjoy" those films, and view them as fundamentally flawed in many ways. But I've come to appreciate the setting itself and the stories that can be told within those settings. Also, remember that Star Wars has grown exponentially in recent years, and it's not like ALL we have are the tentpole movies anymore. I think we'll see good stuff come of the ST, even if the films themselves don't fully satisfy.
DarthLee
Sr Member
Solo4114
My wife is a huge SW, LOTR/Hobbit fan, along with Trek.
I asked if she felt any differently, that the hero is now Rey.
She said specifically. "I dont need the hero to be a male or female, for it to be 'my' movie". "I just want the hero to be heroic, to do cool hero stuff"... "and I cant understand why does a character have to be the same sex, for people to feel closer to the movie" "I love Captain Janeway, but just because she is female does not make her the best Captain in Trek"
God I love my wife, sometimes she makes alot of since.
My wife is a huge SW, LOTR/Hobbit fan, along with Trek.
I asked if she felt any differently, that the hero is now Rey.
She said specifically. "I dont need the hero to be a male or female, for it to be 'my' movie". "I just want the hero to be heroic, to do cool hero stuff"... "and I cant understand why does a character have to be the same sex, for people to feel closer to the movie" "I love Captain Janeway, but just because she is female does not make her the best Captain in Trek"
God I love my wife, sometimes she makes alot of since.
Last edited by a moderator:
Solo4114
Master Member
That's fine. I'm glad you and your wife are compatible that way. I'm sure that there are female fans who've never really worried about seeing someone on the screen in whom they see themselves. What I'm saying is that a lot of the female fans I've spoken to have said the opposite: they like the movies, but they like them even more now that they feel like they can see themselves in the story.
JD
Master Member
Listen to this if you have the time, its a great discussion.
The first thirty odd minutes with Rian are very interesting, it cleared up some of the points that I had with the film, whilst also managing to annoy me about others (Luke inspires the universe ,like ,whose left to see it ?????!!!!!!!) .
https://www.empireonline.com/movies...-empire-podcast-spoiler-special-rian-johnson/
Then listen to the group discussion. It pretty much replicates alot of the talking points raised here and takes an open more positive approach, and I liked what was said about the "unexpected" elements at around thirty five minutes. Some things I think are on point, others feel way off, but its an interestingly balanced argument.
You can pause it at any point, just make a note at the time at where you leave it off, because its long at two hours.
The first thirty odd minutes with Rian are very interesting, it cleared up some of the points that I had with the film, whilst also managing to annoy me about others (Luke inspires the universe ,like ,whose left to see it ?????!!!!!!!) .
https://www.empireonline.com/movies...-empire-podcast-spoiler-special-rian-johnson/
Then listen to the group discussion. It pretty much replicates alot of the talking points raised here and takes an open more positive approach, and I liked what was said about the "unexpected" elements at around thirty five minutes. Some things I think are on point, others feel way off, but its an interestingly balanced argument.
You can pause it at any point, just make a note at the time at where you leave it off, because its long at two hours.
mattycsi
Master Member
Agreed. I was ready to walk long before they showed us just how much of wuss Luke had become.
I love Kevin Smith but you just can't take hi seriously with Star Wars. Every new Star Wars is the best Star Wars ever with him and it only got worse when JJ let him walk around the falcon set on TFA.
Similar threads
