SmilingOtter
Master Member
That's a new one on me - I didn't realize the Medusans were ever seen or mentioned on screen after their TOS episode.
Star Trek: Discovery (2017)
- Thread starter mkstewartesq
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Zombie_61
Master Member
To some degree, yes, whenever they recast The Doctor. The only difference is that Doctor Who doesn't change everything about the show that's familiar to the fans when that happens.
Of course, with the announcement of Jodie Whittaker being cast as the new Doctor, the first time in the show's history that The Doctor will be female, there could possibly be more hand-wringing than usual when the new season airs. We'll see.
There's some alien at the end of TVH that has a metal mask with a screen-like "eye" section. It was either Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, some FASA game book, or some other publication of that era that said they were Medusan.
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To some degree, yes, whenever they recast The Doctor. The only difference is that Doctor Who doesn't change everything about the show that's familiar to the fans when that happens.
Of course, with the announcement of Jodie Whittaker being cast as the new Doctor, the first time in the show's history that The Doctor will be female, there could possibly be more hand-wringing than usual when the new season airs. We'll see.
They also love to call for the head of the showrunner.
Bloop
Sr Member
I just watched the first two episodes. I didn't care for it. I have a lot of the same problems that have already been mentioned in this thread, so I'll try not to comment on those thing, but here's my thoughts (Caution: I get nit-picky!):
First scene was dumb, no better way of saying it. Others here brought up great points on the problems in it. Here's a couple more:
One of my problems with episodes 1 and 2 is that the focus is too much on the 1st officer, Michael Burnham. Star Trek has always had it's lead characters, but was more of an ensemble cast. Characters developed and became fan favorites. Forcing us to care about mainly one character seems like a misstep, especially because I don't care for the character. Her backstory seems contrived and derivative, as is much of the show. I'm sure it's a tall task to try to build on the already large history of Star Trek that came before, but the creators missed the mark here. Instead of developing a truly original character, they tried to take too many elements of what they think Star Trek fans like about it's prior characters, and smash them into one person. The fact that most of the regular cast of the series hasn't even seen any screen time in the first two episodes is astounding! If you're trying to build an audience for a show, and also ask that audience to pay to see more, wouldn't you want to present more of the characters to begin with? If, like me, you don't like the one character that they've focused on, what makes them think I'll pay to see if there might be other characters that I would be more interested in seeing?
Oh, and the uniforms; I thought they were ok. The more I looked at them, though, little things started to bother me.
First scene was dumb, no better way of saying it. Others here brought up great points on the problems in it. Here's a couple more:
- Using a person with a phase rifle to unblock the well (no better options hundreds of years in the future? Even in real life we have rovers that can traverse other planets, directed from another planet, millions of miles away).
- The captain and the first officer go on a dangerous mission that conceivably ANY Starfleet trained crew member could have done.
- Wooden acting and dialog. Michelle Yeoh can't act, why is she on this show as a captain, with so many lines? Every time she spoke, it felt unrealistic, I couldn't believe anything she said. Her accent definitely is part of the issue, but there was very little realistic emoting coming from her.
- The theme is poor. Save for the original Star Trek theme bits, it sounds like background music with practically no melody.
- The music throughout the show is similarly generic, though there were hints of the theme from the J.J. Abrahms Trek movie theme, written by Michael Giacchino (which I actually like, and is one of the few movie themes in recent memory that actually is memorable).
- Overdesigned, as has been said before. The prosthetics and fake teeth are too much and interfere too much with the actors. Actors generally like to have their eyes and face less obscured so that they can emote more.
- Not enough difference between each character. It looked like a video game where the NPCs all use the same model but are skinned in different colors. There may be details and nuance there, but I didn't get any of it.
- T'Kuvma, the lead, black Klingon, had a voice and speech pattern that grated on me. Too slow and halting and monotone.
- I don't mind reading subtitles, but it was a little much. I can't see them sustaining this going forward. Seems like the show thought it was cool when Game of Thrones did that with the Dothraki (just speculating)
One of my problems with episodes 1 and 2 is that the focus is too much on the 1st officer, Michael Burnham. Star Trek has always had it's lead characters, but was more of an ensemble cast. Characters developed and became fan favorites. Forcing us to care about mainly one character seems like a misstep, especially because I don't care for the character. Her backstory seems contrived and derivative, as is much of the show. I'm sure it's a tall task to try to build on the already large history of Star Trek that came before, but the creators missed the mark here. Instead of developing a truly original character, they tried to take too many elements of what they think Star Trek fans like about it's prior characters, and smash them into one person. The fact that most of the regular cast of the series hasn't even seen any screen time in the first two episodes is astounding! If you're trying to build an audience for a show, and also ask that audience to pay to see more, wouldn't you want to present more of the characters to begin with? If, like me, you don't like the one character that they've focused on, what makes them think I'll pay to see if there might be other characters that I would be more interested in seeing?
Oh, and the uniforms; I thought they were ok. The more I looked at them, though, little things started to bother me.
- Initially, I thought there was no rank insignia or differences among the uniforms. At least there was none that I could see, except for the captain and admiral. Moving the wrist stripes of the TOS uniforms up to the shoulders is fine, but they're the same four stripes for everyone, and the captain just has additional stripes leading up to the neck. I had to google to find out that there actually are rank "pips," but they're on the Starfleet logo badges. It's far too subtle to see on screen, and I can't imagine an organization with military ranks would make it so difficult to see their rank. The ST:TNG pips were subtle, but the location on the collar makes it easier to see. Plus, it's not gold on gold or silver on silver, which also makes it tough to see.
- The "zipper" on the front isn't a zipper at all, or at least isn't a real-world zipper. Maybe it's supposed to represent a futuristic fastener, so I suppose that's ok. It's asymmetrical, which is a little odd, but it seems to be all the rage in the comic book movie costumes now.
- The top of the costume generally works for me. In close ups, where you only see the top of the chest and up, I like it fine. But seeing the whole costume with the pants, all the shiny lamé, and those sneakers made me think of ladies fashion track suits, the kind that are worn by women that have no intention of doing any work, physical or otherwise. Something like this came to mind:
JD
Master Member
I find being a whiny fanboy more about ranting about continuity and things like that. However, I do think your bit gets there, too. Star Trek has always had its share of conflict - but, STD starts doing just what you want it to: journeying through the stars and being curious about what's out there. In this case, it appears to be leading to a conflict (I haven't seen episode 2, yet).
This is a shorter series, previous Star Trek series' averaged 25+ episodes per season and ran for multiple seasons - and while I didn't watch all of the latter series, I do recall some of them getting pretty dark. I'm definitely not well versed on DS9, but it's very premise was that it was "landlocked" - Sisko & the gang were not out "trekking" around the galaxy... and then there was the Dominion War.
Based on the first episode, I'm finding Star Trek Discovery to be a very fair representation of modern Star Trek. The focus is a bit more narrow, but I suspect that's due to this being a shorter series. However, I think they did an amazing job with some of the supporting cast, who just seemed to fit in without a pandering introduction.
While I don't necessarily agree with everything you said, you did a great job saying it. (Actually, you were pretty spot on).
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
Continuity is important in a franchise that spans decades. And yes, it is all leading to the Klingon War. It's the only thing they can do since they locked the series up in that slice of the Trek timeline.
Not only are the season's short. It looks like the pacing will be a lot slower than traditional Trek series. And yes, DS9 was probably about as 'dark' as Trek gets. The wormhole was their "exploration vehicle", it kept them from needing a starship to see new things. Check out an episode called "In the Pale Moonlight", "Chain of Command" from TNG is also pretty dark. On the flip side, DS9 was probably also the most comedic Trek series. Especially Ferengi episodes.
Modern Trek is JJ Trek. And you're right this is a great representation of JJ Trek. The problem is trying to pass it off as traditional Trek.
JD
Master Member
Continuity changes. A throwaway line in season 1, episode 14 might not match up to something 50 years later. Tech changes, our visions of the future changes. Some things we need to be able to accept and move on from. I get there are some parts that are easier to overcome than others...
JJ Trek is Trek now. Ya know, that has its good points and bad points. The biggest thing is that JJ Trek has been movie Trek - and movie Trek has always differed from TV Trek.
STD, based on the one episode I've seen, feels like Star Trek to me. It's a better Star Trek than I've gotten from a lot of Star Trek that I've seen over the years. ...and that's not because it's "darker" or set in a "war," but because the vibe is there for me. I feel like Star Trek Discovery is giving us something bigger and better than I've seen from Trek in a long time... maybe since TWOK, I feel the danger of space again, it feels like the final frontier again.
I'm gonna hold off until I see episode 2 before I post any sort of full review. But, I'm hopeful - unfortunately, I saw a few spoilers, but I think I knew what was coming anyhow. I like it so far, even though I have real strong dislike for Michael Burnham.
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
Spock has a sudden sister, not mentioned in some 50 years of Trek. That's a bit beyond just a throwaway line. And that's just a single character.
Except they're passing it off as traditional Trek. That's where a lot of the problems reside. Trying to shoe-horn their JJ Trek show into traditional Trek in order to try and get traditional Trek fans to watch it.
It looks like Trek, it even quacks a little bit like Trek. But it's just stock-standard modern sci-fi. Dark sets, 'realism', slick cinematography. The Orville is more Trek than STD. This show holds no surprises, we know all the major strokes concerning this time period. How can such a known quantity feel like a new frontier?
I'll see it if it manages to get released onto Netflix.
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Axlotl
Master Member
I love the way"Firefly" did it - episodic adventures, but with overarching character arcs.
JD
Master Member
Sybok. Carol Marcus. Warp drive. United Earth Space Probe Agency. First contact with the Klingons. The first Enterprise was the NCC-1701 (now it's the NX).
Let's also note that Spock not talking about his family is an established trait. ...and let's add that Alex Kurtzman said that they were aware that a "sister" was never mentioned as part of Spock's family and "you'll see where it's going, but we are staying consistent with canon" at SDCC.
"Traditional Trek." :rolleyes 1969 called - it was 48 years too late.
The Orville isn't Trek. I don't have to deal with schoolboy humor in Star Trek, I don't have deal with inane banter that serves no real purpose (it sure ain't character development). If I want Kardashian references or talk about weapons-grade weed, I guess there's The Orville. But, I've also had the advantage of watching three episodes of The Orville and I realize what it's supposed to be - a parody - a parody that's not afraid to push the limit and because of that, it looks like we get the occasional episode with strong tale to be told... if you're okay with Elvis jokes and Dora the Explorer bits.
So far in STD, I see something on par with what we've already seen in Star Trek. It feels equal parts television and movie series and nothing stock about it. Yeah, I was worried that we were getting something stock, too; but, so far it's been far from it.
astroboy
Master Member
I would have loved to see what Firefly would have done with more seasons.
To me, the best was Stargate sg-1.
Each episode was standalone, but there was also a large season long arc. As well, there was an arc that lasted 8 seasons, and another one for the final 2.
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Cephus
Master Member
Same here. I'm not completely against an ongoing season-long arc, so long as that's not all they do, but I really prefer something that is done-in-one. Give me a monster-of-the-week. Give me something I can just sit down and enjoy without having to sit through an entire season. There is very little rewatchability in a lot of shows because they require a huge time investment. I've got an hour. Entertain me.
SmilingOtter
Master Member
Excellent episode, one of my favorites from DS9.
SmilingOtter
Master Member
I'm going to have a hard time watching "Face-Off" knowing that Glenn and Neville were responsible for the Klingons.
If these were a particular tribe/sect, with their own style of armor and ships, I could go for it. But when the fleet arrives at the end of the premiere - and they're telling us that the different houses showed up from different parts of the empire within a 5 second window? - nothing looked familiar. No D7's or anything akin to it.
If these were a particular tribe/sect, with their own style of armor and ships, I could go for it. But when the fleet arrives at the end of the premiere - and they're telling us that the different houses showed up from different parts of the empire within a 5 second window? - nothing looked familiar. No D7's or anything akin to it.
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I finally watched the premier episode.
I hate JJ trek, therefore this show already has one really large strike against it.
The Klingon makeup reboot is horrid.
I didn’t buy into the characters at all. Maybe in a few episodes they’ll grow but MY number one would be permanently in the brig even if she does end up saving the day in part 2.
The writing was pretty poor, especially the opening.
I won’t be buying the streaming service, but I might binge watch someday in the future to see if it ends up being okay.
I hate JJ trek, therefore this show already has one really large strike against it.
The Klingon makeup reboot is horrid.
I didn’t buy into the characters at all. Maybe in a few episodes they’ll grow but MY number one would be permanently in the brig even if she does end up saving the day in part 2.
The writing was pretty poor, especially the opening.
I won’t be buying the streaming service, but I might binge watch someday in the future to see if it ends up being okay.
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
An old lover with an unexpected child is a bit more realistic than sudden-sibling. You mention Sybok, me too. ST5 was perhaps the worst Trek movie. That only really reinforces that it's a bad idea. Furthermore Sybok was there for a single movie, whereas Burnham is likely going to do lots of stuff in the series that we will wonder "Why didn't Spock ever mention this?"
Continuity problems with warp drive are mostly the occasionally wrong piece of trivia here or there. This is the kind of petty stuff I don't care about and am not talking about. I don't care about small shifting dates or spelling or name differences. Spock having a sister, who just happens to be instrumental in starting a war is not a small retcon.
Traditional meaning the prime timeline......
The Orville is the closest thing to real Trek there is on TV right now. You're basically taking jokes that comprise 2% of the show and exaggerating like that's all it's about. You know what I like about The Orville? The stories wrap up in a single episode, if I get tired of the plot I only need to wait for next week. It's not stuck into a long-arc that you have to watch even if you don't like it. Also, I can visually see everything. I don't have to watch over-detailed costumes and sets under too-dim lighting that would only serve on a battle-bridge in prior Trek series.The alien designs are clean and functional. They also culturally and biologically make sense, unlike Sense-Death Guy who is a walking ball of contradictions. "I think everything can kill me. Oh hey I'll get a job in the death-inducing environment of space."......:lol
Nothing in STD is on par with Star Trek. It is on par with JJ-Trek and that is a pond far away from what Roddenberry intended.
@SmilingOtter
Probably also one of the best episodes of Trek...period. Not just DS9.
JD
Master Member
This from a guy who hasn't watched the series. :rolleyes
astroboy
Master Member
They other thing I notice about old trek (and buck Rogers and bsg) is that the episodes we're 44-46 minutes long. Those added couple of minutes really allowed a lot more story.
But this trek premier was hardly enough to get anything really across.
Even look at shows like orange is the new black. They can get so much story and character across in 50 minutes.
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MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
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