Solo4114
Master Member
Or a space shuttle.
Rey's terrible very bad Lightsaber skills: Star Wars
- Thread starter CWDevine
- Start date
Or a space shuttle.
JPH
Sr Member
Someone asked for further info regarding what was *already* addressed in A New Hope regarding Luke, vs the *only* way you can accept/understand anything close to Rey's capabilities is to read outside the movies.
Pretty straightforward.
I can't help you is you think all weapons are the same.
Pretty straightforward.
I can't help you is you think all weapons are the same.
Solo4114
Master Member
As I said, nothing in the film suggests that Luke can fly an X-wing other than people saying "You can fly an X-wing," and Luke then flying it.
Nothing in TFA suggests that Rey can fly the Falcon other than her saying "I can fly it," and then flying it.
According to you, one is earned, and the other is a Mary Sue.
That's not remotely consistent. It is, in fact, a double standard.
Similarly, claiming that wookieepedia proves that Luke could fly an X-wing, but does not prove that Rey could fly the Falcon is another instance of you using a double standard. Wookieepedia is either reliable as a source, or it isn't. Either we look to the films for all our information and only to the films, or we incorporate outside sources for additional information.
Which is it? Pick a standard. I'm happy to play by whichever one you pick, again, as long as it's consistently applied. You haven't done that so far, though, because you can't support the claim that Rey is a Mary Sue and Luke is not if you apply consistent standards. They're either both Mary Sues, or neither of them is.
Pick a standard. Apply it. Walk through the argument. Go ahead. I'll wait.
Kinda like not being able to distinguish between an airplane and a spaceship?
Pick. A. Standard. Then apply it. Consistently.
Are you able to do that? Are you willing to do that?
Paul Andrew
Master Member
I think we already know the answer to that one.
Not to shore up sides, but I really feel like there's a bigger disconnect here than I already thought there was, almost like we're not even having the same conversation.
Not to shore up sides, but I really feel like there's a bigger disconnect here than I already thought there was, almost like we're not even having the same conversation.
JPH
Sr Member
From the martial arts = flying crowd. LOL!!!
Zuiun
Sr Member
And yet, strange as it may seem, I'm pretty OK with both Rey's and Luke's abilities, because they are the heeeerrooooooeees and these are mooooooooviiieeeeees. Weird.
kristen jones
Master Member
Noooo.... actually what dan did was point out that if you're going to use Wookiepedia to fill in backstory to support your claim that Luke is justified in his abilities, you cannot then turn on a dime and disallow using Wookiepedia to explain Rey's backstory and previous abilities. THAT is what happened...regardless your attempts to Gaslight.
Yes, indeed! And Dan (and others) have given you their explanations Ad Nauseum... and you have refused to accept it. I suppose you were including yourself in the "sad how people.." statement, yes?
kristen jones
Master Member
Solo4114
Master Member
Again, literally nobody said that.
What I said was:
Did you read that to mean "flying = fighting"? Then you need to read it again. Because that's not what I wrote.
What I wrote was about how you continue to apply a double standard to evaluating Luke vs. evaluating Rey.
Luke is able to fly an X-wing with no training in flying an X-wing (as seen in the film). Luke is able to use a lightsabre with barely any training with ANY melee weapon (again, as seen in the film). Likewise, Rey has no training in using a lightsabre. And Rey has no training in flying the Millennium Falcon. All of that is based on what's shown on screen.
Luke says he's a good pilot, and says flies a T-16. Rey says she can fly. In the SE, Biggs says Luke's a good pilot. Aaaaaand that's about all we know about any of their flying abilities prior to seeing them in action. All of these are equivalent statements. There is no distinction between any of them.
If you rely upon Wookieepedia to explain why Luke's experience in the T-16 remotely translates into flying a spacecraft, then it's reasonable for anyone else to rely on Wookieepedia's statement that Rey trained using simulators to become a good pilot. Please explain why one works and the other doesn't.
With respect to melee combat, Luke has zero training that we see on film except for the scene with Obi-Wan. From reviewing his Wookieepedia entry, he has limited training between ANH and ESB. Yoda never trains him in lightsabre combat specifically. In fact, aside from his training with Ben on the Falcon and (according to Wookieepedia) for a few days in a temple with a few other training remotes, Luke doesn't receive any combat training. Yet he's able to fight other opponents with his sabre perfectly well. That seems like unearned abilities to me.
Rey demonstrates her combat prowess with a staff at the start of TFA, so she at least has some melee combat training. She's then able to pick up a lightsabre and use it effectively in fighting Kylo Ren. She has had more melee combat training than Luke has at that point, to the extent that melee combat is applicable across different weapons. Of course, it may not be. Fighting with a staff isn't the same as fighting with a sabre, which brings us back to "Rey is untrained." But then, so is Luke, so, again, we're back at them both being Mary Sues.
And none of this even begins to address the double standard you apply to someone's ability to translate training in one category of item to training in another category of item. It's fine for you that Luke can jump in a spacecraft in spite of having only ever flown an aircraft, but it's not fine that Rey would be able to apply the techniques she used in wielding a quarterstaff to the techniques she'd use with a lightsabre. That's a double standard.
You ready to pick a standard yet? I'm still waiting.
JPH
Sr Member
Dan, I have applied standards consistently. Luke flew in a ship, similar to what rebels used. When I backed it up from an outside source...not that it was required, because Luke's flying of a small ships was mentioned in the film, tlj defenders refused to accept it. Rey, on the other hand, did not give the audience *any* evidence of her staggering capabilities until she performed them...and some feats are without *any* prior clue of the skills involved. You *have* to seek outside sources to come *close* to excusing a small portion of Rey's Mary Sue-ness.
And while you just accept it for for Rey, and blanket dismiss it as "just the same for Luke" even though evidence is *right there* in the movie! No wookiepedia needed, just functioning ears and eyes. THAT is the disningenuous apllication of standards.
Consistent and simplified.
And while you just accept it for for Rey, and blanket dismiss it as "just the same for Luke" even though evidence is *right there* in the movie! No wookiepedia needed, just functioning ears and eyes. THAT is the disningenuous apllication of standards.
Consistent and simplified.
Paul Andrew
Master Member
Rey's piloting was also mentioned in the film: "We've got one!" clearly implies that she feels she has the requisite skills to fly, whether or not we've seen her do it or another character has said she can.
This is no thinner a justification than Biggs saying Luke knows how to fly.
This is why we call it a double-standard. They perform similarly out-of-experience feats with similar levels of justification, either in film or outside, but when Luke does it it's just Luke doing a thing and when Rey does it she has "staggering capabilities."
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kristen jones
Master Member
We didn't refuse to accept the ancilliary explanation from Wookiepedia re: Luke. I'd say we are more than willing to accept that evidence from Wookiepedia regarding Luke. Now *IF* you are also willing to accept the same details from the same source--WOOKIEPEDIA--to support Rey, then we can have a good conversation. But since YOU continually flatly refuse to accept that info re:Rey--while you nevertheless continue to tout it re: Luke--I don't see at all how you can claim that you've applied an even standard.
You have not.
You really have not.
Solo4114
Master Member
You demonstrably have not.
So, you're claiming that the T-16 is similar to the X-Wing? I assume you're citing to Wookieepedia as your source for that? Because otherwise, it's clearly in a different category of vehicle, which would be akin to saying "If you can fly a plane, you can fly a spaceship."
Actually, that's not the case at all. That's because you're missing a critical link in the argument, which Wookieepedia provides.
You claim "Luke had training as a pilot." I and others have pointed out that, in fact, he didn't have any such training in an X-wing. You cited to Wookieepedia to prove that his training in the T-16 allowed him to understand how to fly the X-wing, which is the critical link. That's the only thing that lets you make the leap from accepting that Luke's ability to fly an airspeeder translates into his ability to fly a starship. You're the one who cited to Wookieepedia to support your argument. Keep that in mind.
Neither did Luke.
Luke gave the audience literally no instances of piloting prior to actually flying the X-wing. He talked about it, but he didn't actually do it. Moreover, he talked about being able to fly one type of ship -- his T-16. Of course, a T-16 isn't an X-wing, which is why you needed to cite to the Wookieepedia article that points out the similar controls. Even then, even if we accept that Luke talking about flying his T-16 is enough to suggest that he can, that's still the same as Rey.
Rey, too, talked about being a pilot prior to flying the Falcon. As they run towards the ship, Rey says she's a pilot.
Again, it's a double standard to claim that Luke talking about being able to fly is what makes it reasonable that he's able to do so, but Rey talking about being able to fly is not.
It's also a double standard that the info on Wookieepedia is acceptable to justify Luke's abilities as a pilot, but not Rey's. You still haven't addressed that. Her Wookieepedia page explains that she trained to become a pilot by using a simulator. WE don't know what ships she trained with, although the page references her actually flying another type of freighter.
Cool. So, now we're going with just what's in the movie? No more Wookieepedia? I'm game to use those terms.
Luke never flies anything other than an X-wing on screen in ANH. He talks about being a pilot, but we don't actually see him do it until he's in the cockpit of the X-wing. That, to you, is "earned" ability. Ok. There's our standard, right? Talking about your ability is enough to prove that you've "earned" it and keep you from being a Mary Sue? Fine.
"We need a pilot!"
"We've got one!"
"You?!"
And then she flies the ****ing ship.
One standard. Consistently applied. Luke and Rey are the same. Both Mary Sues, or both with earned abilities. I'll let you pick which it is.
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Paul Andrew
Master Member
I can't wait for episode XI where Rey is a crusty old hermit on an unheard of backwater and gets a bunch of flak for not saving the galaxy better.
CWDevine
Legendary Member
Finn is clearly depicted as a coward, that scene was his redemption. He clearly likes Rey and would do whatever it took, even losing his own life to protect her. Why??? Because he likes her that much.
I think the reason you say this, is because you're a female. #Girl Power run AMOK!! Sounds pretty feminist to me.
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