Mavel Comics at it again...Tony Stark out as Iron Man

Ya, I'd love to see some original characters too, but let's be realistic, it's the established long lasting ones that are appealing for reason. So of course they're going to exploit that.

It's just a mantle in this case. A suit being passed on for someone new to wear. What the hell is the real problem here?

Why not complain that Iron Man isn't essentially in tights anymore?

OMG people, it's not the same thing comparing this to ghostbusters either. The new ghostbusters looks like crap because it looks like crap. But people are jumping all over this new Iron Man because it is a girl and it ya, probably because she's black too.

And what do you expect marvel to do? They made their money from young boys and young men for decades. Mostly from our desire to apparently see muscled men in tights of all things.

But now women are a HUGE untapped demographic. It's Nerdvana for EVERYONE now and Marvel is damn well going to get into every nook and cranny it can. Because it's a business. It's there to make money. And if it sees a market that interested in its product, it's sure as hell going to modify it's product to meet their bottom line.

We can all cry that it's for PCness run amok, but times are changing. Change with them or remain a dinosaur. It's okay to be a white middle aged man. Don't worry, we're not going to become extinct because of a progressive, modern, diverse, and thriving society.

Maybe, just maybe, she'll be a damned fine Iron Man, and maybe, it'll be fun to see a new generation of kids get excited over something that's meant for them.


Ps: Ghostbusters still looks like a pile of steaming hot ---- or, just watch the Hulk Hogan video and you'll see what I'm saying.

What is the ultimate pay off for them being a minority in the long run?

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When you were a kid (or older) did you look at a character and pretend to be them? Aspire to be them? That is a lot easier to do as a white guy then anyone else. The pay off here is that OTHER people can better picture themselves in these roles. Kids can look at a character and say "Wow, they look like me, I can be/do that."

We can all cry that it's for PCness run amok, but times are changing. Change with them or remain a dinosaur. It's okay to be a white middle aged man. Don't worry, we're not going to become extinct because of a progressive, modern, diverse, and thriving society.

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This is so true. The MAJORITY of stuff out there STILL represents white men. You are still highly represented guys so stop complaining about diversity.

Again, the main goal for this is to introduce a character, get an established readership to like it and then branch off into a new comic. Basic business stuff.

On the one hand, I have zero problem with Marvel doing stuff like this. They frequently do it in different imprints which are set in different universes from the traditional "Marvel-616" universe, for one thing. So, sure, Miles Morales is Spider-Man now...but only in one universe. In the other, Peter Parker is Spider-Man, after having been "killed" and mentally taken over by Doc Ock or something, until Peter regained control of his body and oh my god I just don't even care to pay attention at this point. Anyway, Parker is back.

In general, I think inclusiveness in superheroes -- and yes, even traditionally white, male ones -- is fine. As has been mentioned, it's gone on plenty of times. Rhodie was Iron Man for a while when Tony Stark was living in the bottom of a bottle. Then Stark got sober and took over again, and Rhodie went back to being a background player until he became War Machine.

On the other hand, the thing that I find irritating about these changes is that they are never permanent. So it always ends up looking like a cheap stunt. I'd give a pass to Kamala Khan, because she actually took over a discarded identity as an act of homage to her favorite hero, but in many other cases, it's usually something like "The hero you know has been killed/deposed/taken-out-of-action/turned-evil/whatever! But here's our new focus-group-approved diversified character to wear the suit!" And then, inevitably, the old white dude comes back, and the new character either gets a new name or some variation of the name, or whatever.

I get why they do this. They know they'll launch some new title eventually, where, like, Riri Whoosit will become "Iron Maiden" or whatever. But it just...I dunno. It seems cheap to me. It seems such an obvious ploy. It's designed to generate "OMG CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?!?!?!" headlines and gin up controversy, all of which will end up amounting to much ado about nothing in the long run.

Doesn't bother me. It's not like Thor, they aren't going to call her Antonia Stark or anything.

Of course I don't read the comic myself. I can see how people who do read it would be annoyed. If you were reading a series specifically about a guy, it would probably bother the hell out of you to find out he's not going to be in it anymore.

karmajay said:

When you were a kid (or older) did you look at a character and pretend to be them? Aspire to be them? That is a lot easier to do as a white guy then anyone else. The pay off here is that OTHER people can better picture themselves in these roles. Kids can look at a character and say "Wow, they look like me, I can be/do that."


u

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I never really got that because it been easy for me despite a character's skin color. I think it's just a sad reflection of ourselves as a society and how much stalk we put on skin color.

Stormie said:

I never really got that because it been easy for me despite a character's skin color. I think it's just a sad reflection of ourselves as a society and how much stalk we put on skin color.

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Agreed 100%. But until people stop being marginalized because of their skin colour of all the stupid things, then we will have to put a hell of a lot of stalk into it.

And then one day, maybe, people won't have to care because people will stop being dicks to each other because they're a different colour. And that just doesn't go for white people. People are dicks to everyone, everywhere because they're a different colour.

It really boils down to education.

So bring on the next generation of super heroes. We'll be fine and maybe we'll have a new generation of kids that grow up with less hate in them because they felt left out, because they really really were left out.

My feelings about this will mostly depend on how the movie is handled now, moving forward.

Will they inform us that the new character is black & female, and then go back to trying to sell a good movie and an interesting compelling character?

Or will it be "She's female and black! Love her for that alone! We're not telling you to see the movie just because of that, but you should see it just because of that! If you don't cheer the movie then you're racist/prejudiced!" That's what we got with GB.

Lord Boron said:

So, are the going to make Black Panther a teenage, white, goth chick? Bet that would go over big....

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the only instance i know of where a black character got turned white is baxter stockman in the original cartoon.

Supposedly, the producers where concerned that the only two black characters on the show where villains. Bebop and Baxter. I also think they where worried about having james avery voice Shredder, an Asian character.

One of these days a japanese person will voice shredder ;o). Mako as Splinter was INCREDIBLY Awesome!


without getting too into banned topics here...apparently being a straight white male means nothing to a characters personality and background anymore, and it's ok to turn them into any other gender or race just for short term gain. it's apparently too scary to do anything original and invest in something that might not last more than 5 issues. using pre existing elements i guess takes alot of the work out of it.


being a pasty white kid from the north east. one of my FAVORITE movies is Meteor Man. why can't we see more like that? even if it's not a comedy things like a super hero not enjoying the power of flight would be an interesting angle. and Static shock is pretty damn cool too.

If you create good, ORIGINAL characters, that look like some thought and caring went into it, and not created by a committee(Like the useless and annoying Carter from TMNT), people will love them no matter the race or gender. it's just that simple.

NeilT said:

the only instance i know of where a black character got turned white is baxter stockman in the original cartoon.

Supposedly, the producers where concerned that the only two black characters on the show where villains. Bebop and Baxter. I also think they where worried about having james avery voice Shredder, an Asian character.

One of these days a japanese person will voice shredder ;o). Mako as Splinter was INCREDIBLY Awesome!


without getting too into banned topics here...apparently being a straight white male means nothing to a characters personality and background anymore, and it's ok to turn them into any other gender or race just for short term gain. it's apparently too scary to do anything original and invest in something that might not last more than 5 issues. using pre existing elements i guess takes alot of the work out of it.


being a pasty white kid from the north east. one of my FAVORITE movies is Meteor Man. why can't we see more like that? even if it's not a comedy things like a super hero not enjoying the power of flight would be an interesting angle. and Static shock is pretty damn cool too.

If you create good, ORIGINAL characters, that look like some thought and caring went into it, and not created by a committee(Like the useless and annoying Carter from TMNT), people will love them no matter the race or gender. it's just that simple.

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I agree. I also think that if they truly believed in diversity they wouldn't simply just race bend an existing character but create a brand new one, they could be introduced into an existing title to get readers familiar with them and then, if the character proves to be popular, spin them off into their own title. To me, that's the way to go to bring diversity to comics, by race bending an existing character it says to me that you don't believe a minority character can stand on their own, instead they have to take on the title/role/mantle of an existing hero to be successful. That, to me, is far more insulting and smacks of the whole great white hope syndrome we often see in media, as if minorities can't make it on their own without the aid or assistance of a white Anglo-Saxon.

patrickivan I'm not racist I'm an ******* to everyone. Especially Riceball

Hmmm... I don't know Riceball, but his avatar is really bringing out the ***** in me too... :lol

karmajay said:

When you were a kid (or older) did you look at a character and pretend to be them? Aspire to be them? That is a lot easier to do as a white guy then anyone else. The pay off here is that OTHER people can better picture themselves in these roles. Kids can look at a character and say "Wow, they look like me, I can be/do that.

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When I was a boy I aspired to be like Superman or Luke Skywalker yet I'm an Asian man, born in the US and lived in poverty for the most of my life. I admired these characters by virtue of their character and not because I related to them on any surface or topical level but because of what they stood and fought for. This extends to not just characters of fiction but real-world people whom I've met in my life that span the spectrum of shapes and appearances. I want to place myself in their shoes because of the examples they set, the actions they take, not because of some vapid reason like "they look like me". So, no, I can't believe that any pay-off from this is because of that reason solely, especially considering this will only be just a temporary stamp in the history of an established character, rather than someone who can stand on their own (as so eloquently put by others in this thread). To face facts, children are not keeping the medium of comics alive. It's adults with disposable income. The majority of the kids the films are marketed to probably don't care at all about the source material, so the only way I can possibly see these books having any impact on them at all would be through their parents imposing some social agenda on them.

It seems to do much more harm to place emphasis on looks, and subtly imply to children (albeit often coming from good places), to not just acknowledge it but be consciously aware of it and cater to their possible sensitivities. That is detrimental to any progress. It's giving preferred and entitled treatment to people for no reason other than for appearance alone. It would be like making friends with someone with a handicap for the fact that they are handicapped and not on the merits of the content of their character. I understand the want to see other races and peoples portrayed in media but, as it is, even with the best intentions, current attempts are naive and misguided at best.

I feel people seem to overlook that the diversifying of the masses has been and will continue to happen on the most subtle and smallest level and it's just through quiet social interactions. Kids mingle and interact in school, parties, parks, etc and behave, for the most of them, normally as kids do. That is the biggest bonding exercise already. The fact that we live in a society where good-natured ribbing can be looked as "bullying" is symptomatic of a larger issue. To group kids in an environment and go "YOU CAN'T BE MEAN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM; SO DON'T DO ANYTHING THAT MAY OFFEND THE OTHER PARTY! NOW, ALL OF YOU BOND AND PLAY NICE!" in part, I think, helped shape this current atmosphere of publicly, and in the most prominent fashion, addressing someone's differences. It's almost like a large reverse psychological experiment where, had people been left alone, things slowly would've worked out okay but forcing them to consciously be aware of someone else's appearance, and judging what it may or may not bring, yet outwardly pretending to not be aware of it and playing it safe in what you say (as to not offend) and cast this general blanket of "respect" on everyone is utterly insane. That winds up alienating more people than had you just not bothered and wound up being a jerk to not just them but everyone equally! At least, that way, people knew where others stood.

Looking at the way the world is now, what with this greater demand to treat people equally with this vague and blanket statement of "respect", where you're exceedingly limited in what you can say, think, or behave and yet we continue to have (and seemingly increased) all this whining and whingeing going on about being treated and represented equally; I think I'd rather go back to a world where people could just be jerks in public. Everyone complained less because they were outed as fools when they acted up and everyone also equally got the **** taken out them.

batguy said:

My feelings about this will mostly depend on how the movie is handled now, moving forward.

Will they inform us that the new character is black & female, and then go back to trying to sell a good movie and an interesting compelling character?

Or will it be "She's female and black! Love her for that alone! We're not telling you to see the movie just because of that, but you should see it just because of that! If you don't cheer the movie then you're racist/prejudiced!" That's what we got with GB.

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don't hate on me for thinking this folks, but i was thinking about this thread with this recent sulu announcement.

No setup before hand. no hints that this is how he rolls. The Cynic in me says some ceo thought 'People are hating on this movie left and right! They tore our beloved rhianna song to shreds! What can we do? I know! People have been begging for an LGBT character. that'll work!'. Call back the principle cast for a day of reshoots. put them on a blue screen, insert it into the movie....and bam. you get support, more people in the seats, and controversy click bait articles.

I bet you more people will see that movie now with that announcement that wouldn't have bothered with it before. I guess until this type of thing stops working, hollywood will continue to do it. Too me, that's not progressive. how about a transgender alien species that changes from male to female on a seasonal basis? that'd be a cool idea.
or a gay couple in engineering? that's a little more interesting than making captain kirk an asian female in the next reboot, or sulu gay. it just comes off as lazy.


People will probably check out issue one of the female tony stark for curiosity alone to see how it's handled. probably half that audience will drop it, because they'll see it for the gimmick it is. others will probably stick with it to see where it goes...

it has a chance to be interesting, but when you start with a 'progressive' idea first, that's not really the case. as we see with feigbusters.


I'd find it more interesting if Tony was training an army of iron men. somehow tony went missing, and this lady somehow takes up the slack for a few issues. likes being a hero, and THEN goes out on her own solo, with a different identity.

It's giving preferred and entitled treatment to people for no reason other than for appearance alone.

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So it is not entitlement that MOST of the superheroes in comics were white for the longest time? I mean, it is easy to let the status quo continue when the person speaking is "the norm".

Also, right, the world was better off when people could be jerks to minorities/LBGTQ and not be called out on it or face consequences. :facepalm

Ugh, the worst part about stuff like this is 20 years ago I thought the same thing so I can see why people say it but I guess I'm not verbose enough to explain why it is not good.

karmajay said:

When you were a kid (or older) did you look at a character and pretend to be them? Aspire to be them? That is a lot easier to do as a white guy then anyone else. The pay off here is that OTHER people can better picture themselves in these roles. Kids can look at a character and say "Wow, they look like me, I can be/do that.".

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To be honest, no, I didn't. I gave myself comparable powers and imagined myself joining the story with those powers. So to use Iron man as an example (even though I wasn't a fan as a kid): I would've imagined myself either having my own super powers, or my own super suit and fighting alongside Iron man.

But in terms of pretending to be them because of color...seems a bit shallow to be honest. I mean, you're not an alien, muscular, good looking, in your 30's, tall, or super strong, but at least you're white so you can be Superman?

As I said, this has no impact on me. More power to em, I hope they make big piles of money. Another good Iron-person movie wouldn't make me sad either.

BUT...if you're a black kid and someone says you can't be Superman because you're black...that person is not smart. Help them, because they are stuck on the wrong thing. It's what Superman would do.

PoopaPapaPalps said:

When I was a boy I aspired to be like Superman or Luke Skywalker yet I'm an Asian man, born in the US and lived in poverty for the most of my life. I admired these characters by virtue of their character and not because I related to them on any surface or topical level but because of what they stood and fought for. This extends to not just characters of fiction but real-world people whom I've met in my life that span the spectrum of shapes and appearances. I want to place myself in their shoes because of the examples they set, the actions they take, not because of some vapid reason like "they look like me". So, no, I can't believe that any pay-off from this is because of that reason solely, especially considering this will only be just a temporary stamp in the history of an established character, rather than someone who can stand on their own (as so eloquently put by others in this thread).. .

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I think this makes more sense enough to put here ;o)..but
very well put.

As far as fictional characters go, I looked up to steve urkel because i thought he was a good role model and i loved his character. i identified with him not because he was white and i was white, or he was black and i was black..but because i'd love to be as smart as him, as kind as him, and as accepting as him. to me, steve was a role model.

I also love James Earl Jones and admire him for his voice work. I am not confident in my voice.. most of the time people think i'm a woman on the phone. James has a stuttering impediment. he managed to push past that and become one of the premier voices of our generation and the greatest villain of all time on screen. who cares what he looks like? it's the person and the example they set.

So it is not entitlement that MOST of the superheroes in comics were white for the longest time? I mean, it is easy to let the status quo continue when the person speaking is "the norm".

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Uhhh...No, because comics started, as far as the superhero stuff goes, with the industry being run by young, oppressed, immigrant white men who created these figures with the attributes they held as the paragon. It's like that recent issue with Tolkien's work, where some dolts tried to stir up a hoopla on why there weren't more diverse characters in the Hobbit and LotR. It's not like it's insulting at all to impose our modern liberal views on a work of fiction made by a middle-aged white Englishman that was written in the 50's and 60's, heavily influenced by the man's own views and morals.

Also, right, the world was better off when people could be jerks to minorities/LBGTQ and not be called out on it or face consequences. :facepalm

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But the people being jerks would be called out on it, outed as fools, and would suffer for it because others weren't afraid to get involved or suppress feelings of even offending the offender.

Ugh, the worst part about stuff like this is 20 years ago I thought the same thing so I can see why people say it but I guess I'm not verbose enough to explain why it is not good.

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I feel it is a better alternative to what we have now, at least. Having to cow-tow to every non-existent whim for fear that they will come into being and made a bigger issue of. That's not solving anything; that's side-stepping a problem. It's not good to openly degrade and demean people, I think everyone already knows that, but it's equally bad, if not worse, to force people to essentially become sycophants for the sake of "social justice".

I'm guessing a lot of people here aren't really following the comics. However, this guy does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7JHglUIwM0

Pay particular attention to the comments about the Thor swop at the end and how it sold loads more copies than usual. Then you will kind of understand why they have done what they have done.

I'm more bothered by the fact that this is how 15 year old girls dress now.

That's cool. And it makes sense that Marvel would pretty much repeat (in broad strokes) what it did by gender-swapping a character when the last gender-swapped character outsold the original version by quite a bit.

But that's not really my concern. Well, actually, it kind of is, because it highlights that branding is what matters the most here. So, why didn't they launch a new title called, like, "Freyja: Daughter of Battle" or something, where a human mortal is elevated to Asgardian goddess level because of XYZ crisis among the Aesir? Well, that's simple: nobody knows who the **** Freyja is or why they should care about her. Having a woman LITERALLY take up the mantle of Thor is (A) much bigger news (given Thor's higher profile thanks to the Thor/Avengers films), and (B) gets people to give it a chance.

IF the female Thor comics sold way better than their predecessor, then I could see an argument for the gender swap. It sucks that it's necessary, and I wish it wasn't, but the simple fact is that more people will check out a "FemThor" comic than a "Random female goddess who serves the same role as Thor for a bit, but has a different name/backstory/costume." Once the character is well established and they want to bring back old Thor, they do and give her a new identity.

There's precedent for this in Marvel. Take Captain America. He's always been Steve Rogers...except when he wasn't. Super Patriot/US Agent (John Walker) filled in for him for about a year back in the mid-80s. Of course, they brought the real Cap back, and the new Cap was relegated to "US Agent" status (actually adopting the same costume Cap used while operating as a rogue agent himself). But there you have it. Same deal with when Cap "died" and Bucky/Winter Soldier took over. Or when Falcon took over as Cap while Steve was head of SHIELD. And probably the same story now that Cap's a Hydra agent and they undoubtedly bring in a woman to replace him (not even kidding here. I could easily see Marvel doing this).