Rey's terrible very bad Lightsaber skills: Star Wars

Here's the truth-- EVERYONE in Star Wars is a Mary Sue. It's MYTHIC storytelling. Myths are stories about exceptionsl people who become larger than life heroes. We didnt see anybody teach Han how to shoot or fly, but we accept that. Anakin, with no training, is the only human that can pod race.

This is mythic storytelling. Rey does nothing that other SW heroes don't do. There's only a term for it because she's female.

Literally 100% this.

Anakin is nobody who magically has the skills and destiny to become the most important person in the galaxy.

Luke is a nobody who magically has the skills and destiny to become the most important person in the galaxy.

Rey is a nobody who magically has the skills and destiny to become the most important person in the galaxy.

There is only ONE significant difference separating these three characters: gender. Otherwise, they are all innately talented in not only physical skills such as flying and fighting, but also innately talented in using the "wish powers" that very few others have access to, and no one as strongly as them.

Two are boys, one is a girl, and half the internet can't handle the latter one.
 
Luke is a nobody who magically has the skills and destiny to become the most important person in the galaxy.
Nobody had a problem with Luke because there was no such thing as canon in ANH.

Anakin is nobody who magically has the skills and destiny to become the most important person in the galaxy.
He got a pass because Skywalkers are chock full o' midichlorian cocoa puffs. For me it's really the bad acting of pathetic kid Anakin, teen-angst Anakin that makes it hard to watch.

Rey is a nobody who magically has the skills and destiny to become the most important person in the galaxy.
I didn't have a problem with Rey but I can see how some might be tougher on her for being non-Skywalker and non-Lucas.

A lot of the flames of hate are fanned by Mark Hamill's outspoken criticism of the current SW. I think Hamill has a problem letting go of the idea Luke being the spiritual anchor to the entire Star Wars story and it's unfortunate he's so reluctant to pass the torch. He refuses to accept this older, flawed, embittered Luke. Frankly, I think a weathered Luke who lost his spiritual moorings is more layered and compelling.
 
A lot of the flames of hate are fanned by Mark Hamill's outspoken criticism of the current SW. I think Hamill has a problem letting go of the idea Luke being the spiritual anchor to the entire Star Wars story and it's unfortunate he's so reluctant to pass the torch. He refuses to accept this older, flawed, embittered Luke. Frankly, I think a weathered Luke who lost his spiritual moorings is more layered and compelling.

Except people are latching onto his INITIAL misgivings about the character, and ignoring that he has since admitted to coming around to the evolution of the character, and understands the story choices made.
 
I don't think he's reluctant to pass the torch, quite the opposite. I think he found the changes made by RJ to the story jarring compared to what was pitched to him before Disney even bought the franchise. Even since TFA there were big changes that effect the character and required him to approach the role very differently than he had anticipated. Hamill is a professional and a class act, no matter how he feels personally about the way Luke was handled, he's not going to trash Star Wars.
 
Without quoting the last few replies, just my .02 on the whole Mark Hamill thing...

When he was doing initial TLJ interviews, it's not like people caught him with a hot mic as he was walking off the set. He had plenty of time to collect his thoughts regarding the story and the character. He hated all of it, that much is obvious. Over the years, no one has carried a torch for the franchise more than he has, outside of GL. And he's certainly not one to troll SW fans with a "Come see it so you can see why I hated it!...<wink>" marketing approach.

To to say that MH has trouble embracing something he doesn't agree with, couldn't be more speculative and insulting, especially considering the failure of TLJ to deliver anything of weight for ANY character. Were there a torch to pass, I feel confident that MH would have loved to be the guy. However, TLJ was a 2.5 hour evolution of nothing. THAT is why he couldn't hide his disappointment at first - the substantive core of SW was dismantled.

The fact that he later tapped more into his professionalism, so as to not be a negative burden on the franchise, is testament to MH as a man, and has nothing to do with his "coming around" to the merits of TLJ. Let's get real.

As always, IMHO (But I feel pretty confident about all of the above).
 
As always, IMHO (But I feel pretty confident about all of the above).

in other words, instead of taking his many public statements at face value, you’re choosing to insert your own notions of what he *really* means because that fits the narrative you want to believe.
 
in other words, instead of taking his many public statements at face value, you’re choosing to insert your own notions of what he *really* means because that fits the narrative you want to believe.

You have to believe one or the other, eh. Not much room in the grey. But I'll typically run with what a person thinks on a visceral level, before corporate concerns become an influence.
 
You demonstrably have not.



So, you're claiming that the T-16 is similar to the X-Wing? I assume you're citing to Wookieepedia as your source for that? Because otherwise, it's clearly in a different category of vehicle, which would be akin to saying "If you can fly a plane, you can fly a spaceship."



Actually, that's not the case at all. That's because you're missing a critical link in the argument, which Wookieepedia provides.

You claim "Luke had training as a pilot." I and others have pointed out that, in fact, he didn't have any such training in an X-wing. You cited to Wookieepedia to prove that his training in the T-16 allowed him to understand how to fly the X-wing, which is the critical link. That's the only thing that lets you make the leap from accepting that Luke's ability to fly an airspeeder translates into his ability to fly a starship. You're the one who cited to Wookieepedia to support your argument. Keep that in mind.



Neither did Luke.

Luke gave the audience literally no instances of piloting prior to actually flying the X-wing. He talked about it, but he didn't actually do it. Moreover, he talked about being able to fly one type of ship -- his T-16. Of course, a T-16 isn't an X-wing, which is why you needed to cite to the Wookieepedia article that points out the similar controls. Even then, even if we accept that Luke talking about flying his T-16 is enough to suggest that he can, that's still the same as Rey.

Rey, too, talked about being a pilot prior to flying the Falcon. As they run towards the ship, Rey says she's a pilot.

Again, it's a double standard to claim that Luke talking about being able to fly is what makes it reasonable that he's able to do so, but Rey talking about being able to fly is not.

It's also a double standard that the info on Wookieepedia is acceptable to justify Luke's abilities as a pilot, but not Rey's. You still haven't addressed that. Her Wookieepedia page explains that she trained to become a pilot by using a simulator. WE don't know what ships she trained with, although the page references her actually flying another type of freighter.



Cool. So, now we're going with just what's in the movie? No more Wookieepedia? I'm game to use those terms.

Luke never flies anything other than an X-wing on screen in ANH. He talks about being a pilot, but we don't actually see him do it until he's in the cockpit of the X-wing. That, to you, is "earned" ability. Ok. There's our standard, right? Talking about your ability is enough to prove that you've "earned" it and keep you from being a Mary Sue? Fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdEzeKdHtcU

"We need a pilot!"

"We've got one!"

"You?!"

And then she flies the ****ing ship.



One standard. Consistently applied. Luke and Rey are the same. Both Mary Sues, or both with earned abilities. I'll let you pick which it is.


So, when I first read this post, I was at work. My eyes started to water, I began shaking, people thought someone had died.

I was laughing. I went to the bathroom worried I was going to wet myself.

Your post thoroughly VERIFIES all my claims, and not just the claim that the audience had no clue Rey was a pilot until it was needed, but all my claims in so many glorious ways.

Fin says we need a pilot

Rey says, we've got one.


And then you try and thread the needle claiming it is somehow similar to Luke. Luke, the guy complimented by Obi Wan on his flying. Luke talking about leaving Tatooine, or even Luke in his flight briefing.

And when I didn't think I could get any more affirmation...

You blame the "pacing."

My abs hurt.
 
So, when I first read this post, I was at work. My eyes started to water, I began shaking, people thought someone had died.

I was laughing. I went to the bathroom worried I was going to wet myself.

Your post thoroughly VERIFIES all my claims, and not just the claim that the audience had no clue Rey was a pilot until it was needed, but all my claims in so many glorious ways.

Fin says we need a pilot

Rey says, we've got one.


And then you try and thread the needle claiming it is somehow similar to Luke. Luke, the guy complimented by Obi Wan on his flying. Luke talking about leaving Tatooine, or even Luke in his flight briefing.

And when I didn't think I could get any more affirmation...

You blame the "pacing."

My abs hurt.

Resorting to mockery is of no value in any discussion.
 
...and since we are on the topic of Rey as a trained pilot...

Let's see how well she takes off?

20180729_084137.png20180729_084113.png

Atleast THREE TIMES she comes crashing back down to the planet.

So clearly, *not* a proficient pilot.

Oh wait. Let's wave the magical Mary Sue wand...

Two minutes later she is flying through a gutted star destroyer. She didn't even lose the radar dish!

The glowing blue is the millenium falcon's engine.

20180729_090531.png20180729_084022.png

Looks like a pretty clear case of Mary Sue insta-mastery. Well, okay, mastery in two minutes or less.
 
Hmmm, no mockery, I was being perfectly honest.

I was at work, read the post, I didnt want to laugh out loud and my eyes were watering. My fellow co-worker asked me if I was alright, if someone had died. I really *did* go to the bathroom.

EDIT : Yesterday (Sat) I was at a Harry Potter birthday celebration and I just kept cracking up.

And if you notice, I even waited before quoting the post, and posted challeneges as a subtle, "hell-looo, edit yourself."

My case is solid, well stated and shattered a weak argument. Going after the "process" is only more convincing.
 
Here's the truth-- EVERYONE in Star Wars is a Mary Sue. It's MYTHIC storytelling. Myths are stories about exceptionsl people who become larger than life heroes. We didnt see anybody teach Han how to shoot or fly, but we accept that. Anakin, with no training, is the only human that can pod race.

This is mythic storytelling. Rey does nothing that other SW heroes don't do. There's only a term for it because she's female.

I agree but disagree. Yes, Star Wars is a myth, that's what makes the OT timeless. But in myths, the main heroes have flaws that make them relatable to us, watch some Joseph Campbell. You can go back to almost any classic myth in history and find each hero has a major flaw(s). We see Luke's flaws early on: brash, not wanting to get involved, or later, afraid to lose his friends and rushing to save them without full training, not listening to his mentors, headstrong etc. He looses his hand because of this, faces a horrible truth and learns some valuable life altering lessons.

While clearly Rey is modeled after Luke, she has a learning curve in TFA where she is performing stuff at level we haven't seen in the established films. I personally was willing to let it go in TFA because we didn't know her story, lineage etc, and much like Anakin in TPM or Luke in ANH they are performing super human feats. But after TLJ her power is just growing at a ridiculous rate given the mere hours between TFA, TLJ. This is where she goes from relatable mythic hero to just overpowered superheroine. What is left to ground the viewer? How is she relatable? What is Rey's major flaw for her story arc?

One of Anakin's many faults, was fear of losing a loved one which caused murder after the death of his mom and which just continued with Padmé until his downfall. Anyone can relate to that. What is Rey's major flaw? Not succeeding on a Force persuasion after a few attempts doesn't really cut it. All we see is someone who can't fail. By the end of the TLJ she is performing Jedi Master level force levitations, so what's next for 9? In the middle act of Epi2 or 5 our heroes have lost multiple limbs, rushed foolishly into matters and have experienced crushing defeat.

I'm afraid the only place for Rey to go in 9 is up, and in mythic storytelling a hero who can't do any wrong, just isn't a very interesting or relatable character.
 
Rey fails spectacularly in Ep VIII. Her goal is to redeem Kylo and bring him back to save the Resistance. And that has jack to do with her piloting or lightsaber skills.

Edit: In fact, she fails despite having heroic powers and skills. Because failure is her entire arc in this film. She doesn't get Luke to leave Ach-To. She doesn't convert Kylo. She doesn't save most of the Resistance.
If you look at all of the things she set out to do and failed at, and then still call her a Mary Sue then you have completely lost the thread and have no idea what the term actually means.
 
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I agree but disagree. Yes, Star Wars is a myth, that's what makes the OT timeless. But in myths, the main heroes have flaws that make them relatable to us, watch some Joseph Campbell. You can go back to almost any classic myth in history and find each hero has a major flaw(s). We see Luke's flaws early on: brash, not wanting to get involved, or later, afraid to lose his friends and rushing to save them without full training, not listening to his mentors, headstrong etc. He looses his hand because of this, faces a horrible truth and learns some valuable life altering lessons.

While clearly Rey is modeled after Luke, she has a learning curve in TFA where she is performing stuff at level we haven't seen in the established films. I personally was willing to let it go in TFA because we didn't know her story, lineage etc, and much like Anakin in TPM or Luke in ANH they are performing super human feats. But after TLJ her power is just growing at a ridiculous rate given the mere hours between TFA, TLJ. This is where she goes from relatable mythic hero to just overpowered superheroine. What is left to ground the viewer? How is she relatable? What is Rey's major flaw for her story arc?

One of Anakin's many faults, was fear of losing a loved one which caused murder after the death of his mom and which just continued with Padmé until his downfall. Anyone can relate to that. What is Rey's major flaw? Not succeeding on a Force persuasion after a few attempts doesn't really cut it. All we see is someone who can't fail. By the end of the TLJ she is performing Jedi Master level force levitations, so what's next for 9? In the middle act of Epi2 or 5 our heroes have lost multiple limbs, rushed foolishly into matters and have experienced crushing defeat.

I'm afraid the only place for Rey to go in 9 is up, and in mythic storytelling a hero who can't do any wrong, just isn't a very interesting or relatable character.

I think the problem isn't that Rey's flaws seem light--she has them-- she has the same abandonment issues as Anakin in TFA and she has Luke's save the dark sider flaw from ESB. What seems to throw people is the pace of her escalation in power is different from Luke's. Because of what we saw Luke go through, that seems to the benchmark.

Luke clearly was self-taught and despite being brash, gained a lot of power between ANH and ESB on his own.

Rey was a survivor, on her own, constantly forced to fight-- she has a story before TFA begins. She'd obviously flown before, even if she'd never left Jakku (flying in SW is like driving a car in real life, most everyone can do it). If you think of Rey started TFA in a similar place Luke is in ESB, it;s not hard to buy. Also consider everything Anakin did as a CHILD before he had a lick of training.

While I'm a firm believer that a movie should't make you expect anything or work too hard to find a plot point not onscreen, but in Rey's case it was clear she had led a rough life and was used to fighting for her survival. The force choosing her and granting her with power is no stranger than it immaculately concepting Anakin.

Any questions about Rey dissolve in my opinion if you accept one basic fact: she has the POTENTIAL to be more powerful than Anakin or Luke.

Simple as that.

People really, really resist that notion for whatever reason. Given the fact the ST is a love letter to the OT they don't make it easy to accpet, but if you do, everything makes sense.
 
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While I'm a firm believer that a movie should make you expect anything or work too hard to find a plot point not onscreen, but in Rey's case it was clear she had led a rough life and was used to fighting for her survival. The force choosing her and granting her with power is no stranger than it immaculately concepting Anakin.
It's that last bit that I have a hard time with. There's no indication in the previous 6 films about the Force being sentient or making choices. The supposed immaculate conception is a big stretch to the Force choosing Anakin's mother. The prequels tried to take away the mystery about the force with the Midichlorian "science" but it didn't stick and seems to be completely ignored now. Just one of the many problems I have with the ST and PT is the lack of consistency and continuity. Especially when it comes to the force and it's duality of Light/Dark.
 
It's that last bit that I have a hard time with. There's no indication in the previous 6 films about the Force being sentient or making choices. The supposed immaculate conception is a big stretch to the Force choosing Anakin's mother. The prequels tried to take away the mystery about the force with the Midichlorian "science" but it didn't stick and seems to be completely ignored now. Just one of the many problems I have with the ST and PT is the lack of consistency and continuity. Especially when it comes to the force and it's duality of Light/Dark.


That should have said "...a movie SHOULDN'T make you..."

But I get your point. That said, every movie added to the mythos of The Force. In ANH it was telepathy and precognition. In ESB they added telekinesis, visions, and Force ghosts. In ROTJ The Emperor was shooting lighting bolts, TPM superspeed and immaculate conception, AOTC we actually see the Force visions-- every movie adds something to the mix.

I never felt like Anakin's birth are Rey's awakening implied a consciousness, just a balance of things. The WILL of the The Force, the WAY of the Force-- terms like that are tossed around along with DESTINY that imply that while it's not conscious, The Force has a preferred order to the universe.

Just because we don't like something in a newer movie we can't discount it because it wasn't in an earlier film when they concept was clearly expanded on with each film. I certainly don't like the concept of midichlorians, but it's part of the mythos now, like it or not.
 
That should have said "...a movie SHOULDN'T make you..."

But I get your point. That said, every movie added to the mythos of The Force. In ANH it was telepathy and precognition. In ESB they added telekinesis, visions, and Force ghosts. In ROTJ The Emperor was shooting lighting bolts, TPM superspeed and immaculate conception, AOTC we actually see the Force visions-- every movie adds something to the mix.

I never felt like Anakin's birth are Rey's awakening implied a consciousness, just a balance of things. The WILL of the The Force, the WAY of the Force-- terms like that are tossed around along with DESTINY that imply that while it's not conscious, The Force has a preferred order to the universe.

Just because we don't like something in a newer movie we can't discount it because it wasn't in an earlier film when they concept was clearly expanded on with each film. I certainly don't like the concept of midichlorians, but it's part of the mythos now, like it or not.
I didn't mind expanding on powers that characters use in the OT, PT or ST. I do the same thing with Midichlorians that the story does, ignore it! ;) That was a writing failure that even Lucas glossed over after TPM. In the PT lightsabers are just tools, Anakin constantly loses or destroys them for comical effect. Suddenly in the ST they "call" to people and seem to be extensions of the force it's self. Nothing in the PT or the OT indicated there was anything mystical about Anakin's last saber, it was just a replacement for the one he got destroyed in the droid factory (I think). There might be ancillary material covering that but I look at those as fan fiction trying to fix a hole in the script.
Frankly we can discount anything, even the entire franchise if we want to! I prefer taking the OOT at face value, on it's own it's a great story with a few holes but easily overlooked because of how engaging everything else is. The PT is good for some decent action sequences with lightsabers and Christopher Lee but otherwise I can't rectify the inconsistencies with the OT so it's not part of my "personal canon", same thing for the ST. I enjoyed TFA in spite of it's flaws, I found it chock full of nostalgia (fine by me!), derivative and rushed but fun and I was left anxious for more. Unfortunately TLJ broke the story for me, I don't want to tear it up but it departed to much in story and quality of film making for me to accept it into my "personal canon" as the conclusion of the Skywalker saga. To me it's big budget fanfilms in a literal sense. It doesn't damage my enjoyment of the OT and I'm glad others enjoy it but it killed my interest in episode nine. I'll be watching TLJ for the 2nd time at a family reunion in September so maybe another viewing will change my mind. :)
 
It's that last bit that I have a hard time with. There's no indication in the previous 6 films about the Force being sentient or making choices.

Qui Gon talked many times about the "Will of the Force". He said that the Midichorians speak to us.. telling us the WILL of the FORCE. If the Force has a Will, then it makes choices.

It CHOSE to conceive Anakin...at least apparently, since everyone--including Yoda--called him the CHOSEN ONE.
 
Qui Gon talked many times about the "Will of the Force". He said that the Midichorians speak to us.. telling us the WILL of the FORCE. If the Force has a Will, then it makes choices.

It CHOSE to conceive Anakin...at least apparently, since everyone--including Yoda--called him the CHOSEN ONE.
Yeah but as I said I tend to ignore any Midichlorian talk because of it's inconsistencies. The only way for me to personally enjoy the prequels is to look at the Jedi order as a hubris ridden cult, the last vestiges of a once powerful sect. Now reduced to tossing out guesses and calling them facts. I don't buy into the Jedi veiw of the Force in universe.
 
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