And Luke was seeing the horrors he would commit in the future... all that same stuff was going through Luke's mind.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
- Start date
And Luke was seeing the horrors he would commit in the future... all that same stuff was going through Luke's mind.
DarthLee
Sr Member
I dont mind the midichlorians, cause it s the count that matters...have to have a certain number of them to be force sensitive. Certain bloodlines have high counts than others.
I felt more of a brother /sister with Kilo/Rey
And I agree with you on Leia.. as I think most of us do.. perfect opportunity to give her a heroic death.
I fundamentally disagree with your view of the Force but that’s ok.
In 1977 the Force was part of all living things. No one back them ever felt it was limited to biology. Everyone could potentially access it but only a few could master it.
And Kylo can’t be lying as Rey herself said she knew the truth, her parents were nobody. That was s huge moment for her character.
And that little boy with the broom was me in 1977 and was a wonderful moment in the film for me.
jcroscigno
Well-Known Member
I thought Yoda made it clear in ESB - everyone has the potential because it's literally everywhere and everyone.
For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.
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Darth Fetty
Sr Member
Just couldn't find that convincing at all in the film. Rey and Snoke knew there was conflict in Kylo, yet somehow Luke couldn't see it and was about to kill him in his sleep? This is the same guy who risked his life in order to pursue the good in Vader and redeem him? Not even with the excuse of "people change" could I buy that.
Snikt
Sr Member
Bryancd Im going to see it again in a couple days and see if my feelings change.
jcroscigno I guess I didnt get that, considering the only ones in the OT that could use the force were the jedi/sith. Which of course were the main characters, and so many others could not.
jcroscigno I guess I didnt get that, considering the only ones in the OT that could use the force were the jedi/sith. Which of course were the main characters, and so many others could not.
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Rian is a wonderfully pragmatic fellow..
http://www.businessinsider.com/star...view-about-the-last-jedi-fan-backlash-2017-12
http://www.businessinsider.com/star...view-about-the-last-jedi-fan-backlash-2017-12
jlee562
Sr Member
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How do people keep missing the point that even though Luke was tempted to kill Ben\Kylo, he didn't?!?! He changed his mind, but before he had a chance to try and guide Ben\Kylo away from that path, Ben\Kylo overreacted (out of fear, which we know what that leads to) and we got what happened after.
Hunk a Junk
Sr Member
Okay, more beer talk. :cheers This bugs me and fans get it wrong all the time. The idea that in 1977 there was a "more egalitarian view of the Force, that everyone could access it but only the most serious could master it" is only true if you didn't watch the original movies. Right from the beginning, when Ben tells Luke the truth about Luke's father being a Jedi and not some navigator on a freighter, it was implied that Luke had the potential to be a Jedi because of his father. Because of lineage. Because of a bloodline. Ability and exceptional power passed from father to son. A genetic factor. That idea was only underscored in bold with yellow highlighter and gold stars in ROTJ when Ben told Luke that the "emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him." Luke tells Leia, "The Force runs strong in my family. My father has it, I have it, and... my sister has it." There has been a biological factor to Force ability since the very first movie. Fans love to crap on the prequels because of midichlorians, but if they do IMHO it's because they fundamentally don't understand what has been put directly in front of them in the OT. Midichlorians only give name to something we're told is there from the beginning: that ability to USE the Force can be passed through bloodlines. That doesn't mean that ONLY people whose parents were Jedi can use the Force. Some children are born stronger in it than others. These children need to be identified, found, and nurtured so they can use their abilities for good. But it most definitely can be passed along through bloodlines -- and that can be dangerous. That's why Jedi are banned from having children. The Clone Wars did an episode on it. Seriously, when I hear people complaining about midchlorians I can only think, "You really don't get this at all." There is nothing about the concept of midichlorians that doesn't completely mesh with what happens in the OT. Now, one can make the argument that Lucas didn't need to put a name on this biological component -- and in a sane world I might agree with you. But here's the truth: Lucas NEEDED to name midichlorians for a very important reason: the world isn't sane. Some fans are friggin' nuts. Really. Some fans have mental health problems. Some fans can't easily separate fact from fiction. If they could, there wouldn't have been some nut showing up at Lucasfilm in 1978 saying Lucas stole the idea of Star Wars and as proof he'd "parked the Millennium Falcon in the parking lot" (and that really happened). There's undoubtedly stories only Lucas and some insiders know about crazy and criminal fan behavior. It's been said other places, but I think it's absolutely true, that Lucas named midichlorians because he was worried that crazy fans would actually try to turn the Force into a real religion. There's precedent. In Australia some people have registered "Jedi" as an official religion. I think by the time Lucas made the PT he was all too aware of how far fans go overboard and he simply didn't want to become the next L. Ron Hubbard against his will. So he took the biological component that was already there and just gave it a name as a way to remind people that Star Wars is fiction and a fairy tale. To not take it too seriously. To not be whackjobs about it. Personally, I think he was right. So to me, midichlorians aren't just completely fine, but they're really really important to prevent this story from being perverted into something it should never be. Frankly, it bugs me that Disney is bowing to fan pressure to ignore midichlorians because freako fans are the reason they exist at all.
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The fact that he was tempted IS the problem. The ending of ROTJ was about Luke overcoming his temptations and rejecting such violence. That's HOW he became a Jedi. He couldn't become a Jedi without doing it. It was why Anakin was a failed Jedi. It was the entire point of the saga! By having Luke suddenly tempted AGAIN makes his victory in ROTJ meaningless. He apparently learned nothing.
DarthLee
Sr Member
Luke was conflicted..
He saw is Father beat down his Mentor..He watched his friend/teacher Yoda hiding and eventually fade because of this darkness. He saw what could happen if things were not nipped in the butt right away. As good/light as he was, he probably though for a second, I could stop this before it gets out of hand. Yet he saw his nephew.
I thought the scene made sense. I could relate. Remember, Obiwan didnt go to Mustafar to save Anakin, he went there to stop him. Because he saw the death and distruction....the future and pain Anakin could and will cause..
Luke went in Kilo's tent.....because he saw the same thing.. just couldnt follow through.
He saw is Father beat down his Mentor..He watched his friend/teacher Yoda hiding and eventually fade because of this darkness. He saw what could happen if things were not nipped in the butt right away. As good/light as he was, he probably though for a second, I could stop this before it gets out of hand. Yet he saw his nephew.
I thought the scene made sense. I could relate. Remember, Obiwan didnt go to Mustafar to save Anakin, he went there to stop him. Because he saw the death and distruction....the future and pain Anakin could and will cause..
Luke went in Kilo's tent.....because he saw the same thing.. just couldnt follow through.
Sure. Although Luke continues to kill people a lot after ROTJ. Like, Luke kills so many people. He really is not against violence. Luke is not some perfect being. He made mistakes in the OT. He is not supposed to be failure free. Yoda makes it a POINT to tell Luke that we must learn from our failures. Luke made a mistake LIKE HUMAN BEINGS do. The problem is he did not learn from his failure but ran away.
There is absolutely nothing in Luke's back story that stops him from being human or making bad judgments. Again, he did NOT KILL BEN. If you think Luke could not have had this brief though and feel shame for the thought then you are the one being unrealistic about the character, sorry.
And all of this plays to the irony of how some people see Luke as the perfect Jedi. We see in TLJ, Luke knows he cant EVER live up to that "legend" that the galaxy...and WE, have set on him. He had to use all of his power to portray that Legend for the galaxy to see... even if it wasnt really who he is.
And really, Luke's self imposed exile isnt much different than Yoda's. Yoda could have been out there helping Luke and the Rebellion, but he wasnt, it wasnt his place to do that, he had to hand it on to Luke and the new generation. He helped a little, but Yoda didnt go storming the Death Star. Yet somehow we expected Luke to do that even though he's now in the Yoda role of exiled mentor.
And really, Luke's self imposed exile isnt much different than Yoda's. Yoda could have been out there helping Luke and the Rebellion, but he wasnt, it wasnt his place to do that, he had to hand it on to Luke and the new generation. He helped a little, but Yoda didnt go storming the Death Star. Yet somehow we expected Luke to do that even though he's now in the Yoda role of exiled mentor.
This is probably off topic but Jedi are banned from having children the same reason they are banned all attachments. It complicates people's feelings and leads to fear and stuff for those people. Yoda says it himself in Ep1. Has nothing to do with bloodlines being too powerful.
Dessa
Sr Member
I've got lots of thoughts that I still need to type up (I enjoy the movie, but do see it's flaws), I just have 2 things to point out right now.
Re: The "Map to Skywalker"
It was never a map to Luke. Luke being at the location was just incidental. The map was to the Jedi Temple. Which Lor San Tekka had helped Luke find, hence why he had the missing part of the map. Everyone knew Luke had gone looking for it, though, which is why it became the map to him.
Luke
I have more thoughts on this, but the first thing that comes to mind for me, is the Legacy comic series Dark Empire. This is Dark Empire Luke. He got too close to the Dark Side, wanting to learn more. And it scared the crap out of him. Not the same events, obviously (please no Emperor clones in this!), but that was the Luke I saw. Heck, even his appearance, albeit older, reminded me of Dark Empire.
Re: The "Map to Skywalker"
It was never a map to Luke. Luke being at the location was just incidental. The map was to the Jedi Temple. Which Lor San Tekka had helped Luke find, hence why he had the missing part of the map. Everyone knew Luke had gone looking for it, though, which is why it became the map to him.
Luke
I have more thoughts on this, but the first thing that comes to mind for me, is the Legacy comic series Dark Empire. This is Dark Empire Luke. He got too close to the Dark Side, wanting to learn more. And it scared the crap out of him. Not the same events, obviously (please no Emperor clones in this!), but that was the Luke I saw. Heck, even his appearance, albeit older, reminded me of Dark Empire.
Snikt
Sr Member
Its so funny how you have so much adulation for this guy. A lot of stuff I see him post on twitter cast him in such a smug light. And what new ground did he break according to the article? I seriously wonder what the hell JJ is going to do after this. All this that happened, should have been in 9. Luke dying at least. What else can they do? If I was JJ I would be pissed. The more I think about it, I feel insulted by this movie. "F you nerd for caring about things, youre stupid". :facepalm
The problem is that we have no context. Luke sensing darkness in Ben is not a good reason for Luke to act that way. Vader provoked Luke by threatening his sister so at least in that sense we could understand WHY he acted out violently. What did Ben do that would cause Luke to think hey maybe I should kill this kid in his sleep.
Hunk a Junk
Sr Member
Hold up. Obi-Wan went to Mustafar to kill Vader, true, because Yoda convinced him that Anakin was "gone." That Anakin was spiritually dead and it was impossible to come back. As far as Yoda and Obi-Wan knew, turning to the Dark Side was a one-way street. Once you go black, you never go back. :lol Their mistake -- and it WAS a mistake -- was in failing to realize that Anakin wasn't dead. He wasn't gone completely. Anakin wasn't a regular Jedi. He was the Chosen One. In the case of Dooku (a regular Jedi), yes, turning to the Dark Side was a one way street and destroying him was the only option. That's not true of Anakin/Vader. THAT's what ROTJ is all about. Yoda and Obi-Wan want Luke to KILL Vader because they think the "good man" is gone forever, but Luke senses something they cannot -- that the good man is still there. So THAT's why Luke is a hero. Instead of following their instructions and killing Vader, he takes a different and more risky path to do what no one has done before: turn someone back from the dark side. And the WAY HE DOES THAT is by REJECTING VIOLENCE. He throws away his lightsaber. He tells the Emperor he won't kill. It's the moment both the PT and the OT has been building toward -- and Rian Johnson doesn't fundamentally understand that. To have Luke tempted -- when temptation is what caused Anakin to fall and resisting temptation is why Luke succeeded -- invalidates a six movie arc. It really does. That's why people are pissed.
Hunk a Junk
Sr Member
Wait, what??? When and where does Luke kill people after ROTJ? Is there an episode 6.5 I missed? :lol
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