Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Subscribe
  1. SethS's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2016
    From
    Los Angeles
    Messages
    1,633
    May 28, 2017, 1:18 PM - Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #1

    Not since rivets vs. screws is there potential for such a heated debate!

    As saber parts became known, the notion of chrome tape covering the Graflex logo became known. At first, it was thought that the ANH saber had a single small strip and the ESB had the wider textured tape.

    As better images surfaced and more investigation was done, it seemed the textured tape was actually only on the ranch display saber, and that the thin strip was used in ESB. Knowing what to look for, it was retroactively decided that the ANH version had no tape at all. After the toe pic and other BHS images were uncovered it looked as if nothing was there.

    But now there is a notion that a wide strip of chrome tape may have covered the entire clamp. Most of the photos we see are blown out somewhat. While we could see the contrast of a strip, and entirely covered clamp band may not be as obvious.

    The case FOR TAPE:

    1. Roger Christen has recently said tape was used in ANH to hide the logo
    2. The Obi-Wan saber as seen in the Chronicles book makes use of chrome tape on the clamp band
    3. The V3/shared stunt saber also has chrome tape covering the band

    The case AGAINST TAPE:

    1. Roger Christen has contradicted himself many times, he's old, it was 40 years ago
    2. It is not known if the SS/V3 and Obi-Wan hero had the tape during filming, or if it was added later
    3. people who have spent MANY hundreds of hours of doing research like Tcrooz and Chaim are unconvinced and they'd know better than anyone

    Photographic evidence is inconclusive... have a look:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	anh1.jpg 
Views:	532 
Size:	174.2 KB 
ID:	732121

    Here we see an angle where the holes on the clamp should be visible, but they are not. To my eye, the clamp also looks marginally shinier.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tunisiafilming.jpg 
Views:	189 
Size:	14.5 KB 
ID:	732122

    Again-- the clamp finish is shinier than the rest of the graflex. Though Graflexes found in the wild tend to vary in finish as well.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	graf.jpg 
Views:	132 
Size:	12.9 KB 
ID:	732123

    A blow up of an image we've seen before, but has now been released at a higher res... the holes are NOT covered, but the logo and engraved lines are so faint it would seem like they are showing through tape.

    I slapped some tape on my vintage and got a very similar look:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	test1.jpg 
Views:	141 
Size:	329.6 KB 
ID:	732124Click image for larger version. 

Name:	test2.jpg 
Views:	123 
Size:	338.5 KB 
ID:	732125

    But now this image shows not only the holes, but also virtually no contrast or surface difference between the clamp and Graflex body:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	nocontrast.jpeg 
Views:	144 
Size:	138.5 KB 
ID:	732126

    The same could be said for the infamous toe pic:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Episode_4_LukesToePic.jpg~original.jpeg 
Views:	375 
Size:	25.0 KB 
ID:	732127

    My personal verdict?

    I joke about rivets vs. screws, but I think the truth about THAT case is the same here. I think there are examples of both.

    We've assumed very few Graflexes were used for ANH, but if Roger's memory can be trusted, he's said recently that he made 5-6 for the film. 2 went to Tunisia. I would assume some went to California and some stayed in London. This could easily account for the clamp box itself shifting position so frequently. I think tape was used on some of these sabers, but not on others.
  2. Lichtbringer's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jul 2010
    From
    Germany
    Messages
    3,033
    May 28, 2017, 1:21 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #2

    I wouldnīt wonder if both variants existed.
  3. SethS's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2016
    From
    Los Angeles
    Messages
    1,633
    May 28, 2017, 1:24 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #3

    I will say that on camera vs in person the tape looks terrible. No doubt that's why Roger removed it from his own. It makes the saber look very cheep. After my test I immediately pulled it off.
  4. SethS's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2016
    From
    Los Angeles
    Messages
    1,633
    May 28, 2017, 1:39 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #4

    And I'm sure @roygilsing will do a much cleaner test than I...
  5. Lichtbringer's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jul 2010
    From
    Germany
    Messages
    3,033
    May 28, 2017, 2:41 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #5

    Iīm sure those "all thumbs" guys who made the props didnīt made a clean one.
  6. RPF Premium Member D48thRonin's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2003
    Messages
    538
    May 28, 2017, 2:44 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #6

    Well what about this... this is the screen-used V2 clamp:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	V2 clamp.jpg 
Views:	112 
Size:	266.8 KB 
ID:	732139

    In these particular images could it not be argued that it would appear that the clamp *could* be covered in tape when we know for a fact that it is not? In the image on the left the lines appear to be completely non-existent. In the image on the right the lines appear to be very faint, as do the letters.

    I would agree - photographic evidence *is* inconclusive.
  7. scarf man's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jul 2002
    Messages
    1,642
    May 28, 2017, 2:53 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #7



    The holes look too tidy, except for the chip to the chrome on the right one. ...or I'll grant you that that chip could be a tear in the tape.



    With the top half in this position, the horizontal clamp slot is totally filled from behind with the top tube. The upper square hole is in the shadow of Mark's pinky, and the bottom square hole is totally filled from behind with the bottom tube, and washed out.
    Last edited by scarf man; May 28, 2017 at 3:08 PM.
  8. Mance Vader RPF Premium Member MCM's Avatar
    Member Since
    May 2015
    From
    Baltimore
    Messages
    754
    May 28, 2017, 3:18 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #8

    I say no tape. With as much as these things would have been swung around on Mark's belt and all of the handling, one would think that there would be scratches and indentations in the tape. Everything looks too clean.

    Sent from my SM-J700P using Tapatalk
  9. halliwax's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2013
    From
    Fairhaven, MA
    Messages
    8,396
    May 28, 2017, 3:45 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #9

    Oh it's on!!! Get the gloves!!! Ding ding ding


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  10. halliwax's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2013
    From
    Fairhaven, MA
    Messages
    8,396
    May 28, 2017, 3:47 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #10

    I have to say after Roy pointed out the tear near the right square hole, I believe there is tape on this saber


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  11. Treadwell's Avatar
    Member Since
    Aug 1999
    Messages
    10,463
    May 28, 2017, 4:12 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #11

    The slightly more shiny argument doesn't work, IMO, because the bare clamp IS slightly more shiny all by itself.
  12. RPF Premium Member D48thRonin's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2003
    Messages
    538
    May 28, 2017, 4:12 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #12

    scarf man said: View Post
    With the top half in this position, the horizontal clamp slot is totally filled from behind with the top tube. The upper square hole is in the shadow of Mark's pinky, and the bottom square hole is totally filled from behind with the bottom tube, and washed out.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CIMG1573.JPG 
Views:	74 
Size:	74.3 KB 
ID:	732152

    Seems to check out, but with the horizontal slot totally filled, the upper tube is "disengaged" from the clamp, and the upper square hole is open. Can't say for sure that I see any evidence of that in the shadow of his pinky. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, I just can't see it.
  13. RPF Premium Member D48thRonin's Avatar
    Member Since
    Apr 2003
    Messages
    538
    May 28, 2017, 4:16 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #13

    halliwax said: View Post
    I have to say after Roy pointed out the tear near the right square hole, I believe there is tape on this saber
    That could just as easily be chipped plating on the clamp. I'm sure we've all seen that exact thing on vintage clamps.
  14. RPF Premium Member JoeG's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jul 2011
    From
    Long Beach, CA, US
    Messages
    2,011
    May 28, 2017, 4:38 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #14

    With all due respect to Mr. Christian, I really think he can't be relied on for accurate info as to what he did over 40 years ago. His memory seems spotty a lot of the time and sometimes he says things that sound like they came straight from these forums. There's just been too much time passed.
  15. scarf man's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jul 2002
    Messages
    1,642
    May 28, 2017, 5:44 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #15

    D48thRonin said: View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CIMG1573.JPG 
Views:	74 
Size:	74.3 KB 
ID:	732152
    Can't say for sure that I see any evidence of that in the shadow of his pinky. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, I just can't see it.
    I can't say I see it either, just that's where it would be. Bottom one is washed out, top is in a shadow, that could be why we aren't seeing the square holes in that pic.
    If you rotated your saber a bit more to the right like in the pic, the square holes would blend in with the edge of the clamp. Add harsher lighting and I think they'd wash out and disappear.
  16. SethS's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2016
    From
    Los Angeles
    Messages
    1,633
    May 28, 2017, 6:51 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #16

    scarf man said: View Post
    http://www.therpf.com/attachment.php...995115&thumb=1

    The holes look too tidy, except for the chip to the chrome on the right one. ...or I'll grant you that that chip could be a tear in the tape.

    http://www.therpf.com/attachment.php...1&d=1495947743

    With the top half in this position, the horizontal clamp slot is totally filled from behind with the top tube. The upper square hole is in the shadow of Mark's pinky, and the bottom square hole is totally filled from behind with the bottom tube, and washed out.
    Don't get me started on how I see a PCB under those bubbles... I;m sure it's just a reflection...
  17. halliwax's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2013
    From
    Fairhaven, MA
    Messages
    8,396
    May 28, 2017, 7:09 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #17

    SethS said: View Post
    Don't get me started on how I see a PCB under those bubbles... I;m sure it's just a reflection...
    Seth always starting trouble


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  18. AnubisGuard's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2001
    Messages
    805
    May 28, 2017, 7:45 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #18

    I vote chrome tape on at least some of the sabers. The finish on the clamps looks too....cheap...in some of these pics for me to believe it's the factory finish. Combine that with knowing that the shared stunt had tape on it and I think it's very likely that some had it.

    Not that I would ever put any on my replicas. It looks terrible.
  19. RPF Premium Member Excelsior's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2005
    From
    PA
    Messages
    33
    May 28, 2017, 8:33 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #19

    The lighting in some of the photos could have easily washed out finer details, making there appear to be no holes from having tape on the clamp. The fact that the clamp lines and Graflex letters are visible at all is a strong indication that there was no tape on the clamp on these props as pictured. If there were tape, and even if it had been worn from handling to the point that the letters underneath started showing up through it as in SethS's pics above, it seems likely that the camera would have totally washed those details out. Also, as was mentioned above, the cleanliness of the lines around the rectangular cutouts in the clamp is a strong indication against tape. The anomaly by the right hole is probably just a ding in the chrome finish. Why would the propmaker go out of his way to finely cut out the tape from those little holes anyway? It takes a lot of attention with a very sharp exacto knife to cleanly cut out those rectangular holes in the clamp. Why would the builder go to that trouble for something that isn't going to be seen on screen?

    Yes, there was tape on the Obi ANH saber, as seen in the reference photos. It is entirely plausible it was also put on some of the Graflexes as well. But the screenshots and reference photos of the Graflex hilts don't provide any strong evidence that tape was present there too. Roger Christian does recall putting tape on the clamps to cover the Graflex letters. Perhaps he did put it on the Luke sabers too at first, but it quickly wore off or was removed (intentionally or unintentionally) before and during filming. In the reference photos of the Obi ANH, there is barely anything left of the clamp tape.

    Regarding there being a PCB under the bubbles, the toe pic provides the strongest evidence against this. You can see through the bubble strip to the inside groove of the clamp, not to mention you can also see that rectangular-shaped indentation directly underneath on the other side of the bubble strip.
  20. scarf man's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jul 2002
    Messages
    1,642
    May 28, 2017, 8:40 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #20

    ....Nevermind
    Last edited by scarf man; May 29, 2017 at 10:59 AM. Reason: poor attempt at humor
  21. RPF Premium Member newmagrathea's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2014
    From
    Kansas City MO
    Messages
    1,157
    May 28, 2017, 11:18 PM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #21

    I'd like to know one way or another for sure, and I can see both ways in different pics. I wouldn't be surprised if both existed.

    Personally I hate the tape and will never put it on any saber regardless if it's accurate or not.
  22. RPF Premium Member roygilsing's Avatar
    Member Since
    Mar 2014
    From
    Rotterdam, the Netherlands
    Messages
    853
    May 29, 2017, 10:43 AM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #22

    I have made a comparison by simulating the photographic lighting, position, lens, grain, etc.
    It's not perfect, but it's close.
    All three versions are done with vintage Graflex clamps.
    I'm very curious what you all think!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tape-no-tape.jpg 
Views:	236 
Size:	1.08 MB 
ID:	732268

    regards,
    roy
  23. halliwax's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2013
    From
    Fairhaven, MA
    Messages
    8,396
    May 29, 2017, 10:48 AM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #23

    roygilsing said: View Post
    I have made a comparison by simulating the photographic lighting, position, lens, grain, etc.
    It's not perfect, but it's close.
    All three versions are done with vintage Graflex clamps.
    I'm very curious what you all think!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tape-no-tape.jpg 
Views:	236 
Size:	1.08 MB 
ID:	732268

    regards,
    roy
    that is nuts!! wicked cool comparison!!
  24. Angelus Lupus's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2010
    From
    Kent, UK
    Messages
    2,328
    May 29, 2017, 10:59 AM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #24

    To my eye, it kinda looks like the 'no tape' leaves the logo too visible in comparison, whereas the aluminium tape sorta covers it and doesn't seem to reflect differently from the flash body or bare clamp.
    The polyester tape looks noticeably different in the way it reflects and covers the logo.

    Again, just my opinion
  25. russellsch's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jul 2015
    From
    South Carolina
    Messages
    1,243
    May 29, 2017, 11:04 AM - Re: Debate! Chrome tape on the ANH Graflex #25

    roygilsing said: View Post
    I have made a comparison by simulating the photographic lighting, position, lens, grain, etc.
    It's not perfect, but it's close.
    All three versions are done with vintage Graflex clamps.
    I'm very curious what you all think!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tape-no-tape.jpg 
Views:	236 
Size:	1.08 MB 
ID:	732268

    regards,
    roy
    Great comparison shots Roy!
    If tape was used, it was aluminum tape. & I think you're beginning to convince me.... I think tape MIGHT'VE been used. I'm still not putting it on mine though, cause I like the GRAFLEX logo being seen look better.

Similar Threads

  1. Luke ANH Mylar Tape Question
    BillyTheKid, Star Wars Costumes and Props
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: Feb 7, 2017, 5:34 PM
  2. Luke ANH lightsaber Graflex or Folmer Graflex??
    Tarkin, Star Wars Costumes and Props
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: Jan 19, 2011, 12:53 PM
  3. Obi-wan ANH saber "chrome" tape?
    jason1976, Star Wars Costumes and Props
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: Feb 13, 2010, 1:07 AM
  4. Chrome tape on ANH Obi lightsaber clamp?
    Prometheus, Star Wars Costumes and Props
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: Jun 17, 2009, 10:33 PM
  5. Replies: 11
    Last Post: Aug 4, 2007, 11:41 PM