mattycsi
Master Member
Great episode. Though they missed a doozie having Wil Wheaton and Jerry O connell together and not having at least one reference to Stand by Me.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
- Start date
Great episode. Though they missed a doozie having Wil Wheaton and Jerry O connell together and not having at least one reference to Stand by Me.
PantheraGem
Sr Member
That would probably kill you. If not the launch, the Sun itself.
JoMamma_Smurf
Master Member
CT1138
Sr Member
Taking a moment away from the circlejerk of bitching, I just want to point out why I love TLJ, and why it's a great Star Wars movie.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ... "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."
In Luke's telling of Ben Solo's turn to the Dark Side, Luke is unarmed and Ben attacks first and without provocation. Luke's expression and reaction is to try to talk Ben down, but it's already too late.
In Kylo Ren's telling of his turn to the Dark Side, Luke is the provocateur who attacks Ben Solo without warning with the expression of a deranged madman.
But we see in the end that it was all just a misunderstanding. Both stories are true, but from a certain point of view. From Luke's point of view, he can't find it in himself to kill Ben Solo. He is about to lower his lightsaber when Ben wakes up and attacks out of fear. Only, it's too late to talk Ben down. From Ben's point of view, he wakes up to find his uncle standing over him crying with his lightsaber ignited. Out of fear, Ben ignites his lightsaber and attacks. Luke couldn't kill his own nephew, and Ben Solo was not yet beyond hope. What we find instead is two frightened Jedi, master and apprentice. Both are frightened because of the past, and thus both are scared for the future.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." ... "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."
In Luke's telling of Ben Solo's turn to the Dark Side, Luke is unarmed and Ben attacks first and without provocation. Luke's expression and reaction is to try to talk Ben down, but it's already too late.
In Kylo Ren's telling of his turn to the Dark Side, Luke is the provocateur who attacks Ben Solo without warning with the expression of a deranged madman.
But we see in the end that it was all just a misunderstanding. Both stories are true, but from a certain point of view. From Luke's point of view, he can't find it in himself to kill Ben Solo. He is about to lower his lightsaber when Ben wakes up and attacks out of fear. Only, it's too late to talk Ben down. From Ben's point of view, he wakes up to find his uncle standing over him crying with his lightsaber ignited. Out of fear, Ben ignites his lightsaber and attacks. Luke couldn't kill his own nephew, and Ben Solo was not yet beyond hope. What we find instead is two frightened Jedi, master and apprentice. Both are frightened because of the past, and thus both are scared for the future.
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Dontdissthefett
Well-Known Member
So Ben is really just frightened.. Because of that then he and the knights of Ren go and kill everybody else there and destroy the temple? Oh that’s right, that was in a different movie that TLJ chose to ignore. That is just one of the many reasons why the movie fails.
So interesting how all the TLJ fans used the “it’s just a bunch of whiny fanboys upset that their theories didn’t pan out” defense for the film, but all they do is propose convoluted theory after theory about how to interpret TLJ so that it makes sense and isn’t the mess that in reality it is.
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So interesting how all the TLJ fans used the “it’s just a bunch of whiny fanboys upset that their theories didn’t pan out” defense for the film, but all they do is propose convoluted theory after theory about how to interpret TLJ so that it makes sense and isn’t the mess that in reality it is.
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greedo737
Active Member
Exactly! Has anyone even seen TFA? Haha
I took issue with the movie long before that, but this scene in particular is where I knew that it was over for me and that there was no saving it. Luke had been ruined forever.
That one scene completely regressed Luke's character.
"Always in motion is the future." Luke learned this in ESB so just because he had a bad vision of Ben in TLJ doesn't mean that it would come to pass. So now Force visions are set in stone? I call BS.
What did Kylo ever do that was far worse than Vader and thus render him unable to be redeemed? Vader was able to be saved and we as an audience witnessed his crimes which were numerous. For Luke to even consider murdering his nephew in his sleep is absurd. I know people can argue that Luke didn't act on it and that it was a moment of weakness, and had Luke been unable to turn Anakin back to the light in ROTJ I may have bought it but he proved Obi-Wan, Yoda, and even Leia wrong. Vader became Anakin by the end of the movie because of Luke. What did Ben do that was so irredeemable? No one can answer that question honestly because there is no answer. In comparison to his grandfather Ben was an amateur at being evil.
Had we been shown what Luke saw, or watched Ben's training and seen the darkness emerge, or known more about how Snoke had corrupted Ben's mind, or seen what kind of evil Snoke was capable of and how that evil had been passed on to Ben we would have at least had SOME context to why Luke feared his own nephew. Or had Luke been threatened by something that Ben did it would have been at least a more plausible explanation for Luke having ill feelings towards Ben. Perhaps Ben threatened to kill Leia. Vader provoked Luke in Jedi when he said he would try to turn her to the dark side. THAT would have been more believable than what we got.
My argument isn't based on a comic book, or novel, or video game, or a deleted scene, it's based on what happened in the previous movies. Not some nostalgia I had playing in my back yard as Luke, but what was on screen. It all comes down to the writing.
The new trilogy SHOULD be about the next generation of freedom fighters, but there was absolutely no need to destroy the legacy of the original characters just to make Rey, Poe, and Finn look good. If they had to do that in order for the new cast to shine, then perhaps they should have considered writing more compelling characters, or at the very least shown respect to what had come before and have the original cast pass the responsibility of saving the galaxy to the new cast.
There were more graceful and respectful ways to have done that without having to insult the legacy of the story or large portions of the fandom and they have overtly done both.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and perhaps we may never see eye to eye, but that's why we are all here discussing this atrocious garbage heap of a movie. So before anyone accuses anyone of not being a fan, lets just be straight here. We are ALL fans. Whether we think this movie is terrible, or we love it, we clearly all love Star Wars and at the end of the day we have to remember that.
That one scene completely regressed Luke's character.
"Always in motion is the future." Luke learned this in ESB so just because he had a bad vision of Ben in TLJ doesn't mean that it would come to pass. So now Force visions are set in stone? I call BS.
What did Kylo ever do that was far worse than Vader and thus render him unable to be redeemed? Vader was able to be saved and we as an audience witnessed his crimes which were numerous. For Luke to even consider murdering his nephew in his sleep is absurd. I know people can argue that Luke didn't act on it and that it was a moment of weakness, and had Luke been unable to turn Anakin back to the light in ROTJ I may have bought it but he proved Obi-Wan, Yoda, and even Leia wrong. Vader became Anakin by the end of the movie because of Luke. What did Ben do that was so irredeemable? No one can answer that question honestly because there is no answer. In comparison to his grandfather Ben was an amateur at being evil.
Had we been shown what Luke saw, or watched Ben's training and seen the darkness emerge, or known more about how Snoke had corrupted Ben's mind, or seen what kind of evil Snoke was capable of and how that evil had been passed on to Ben we would have at least had SOME context to why Luke feared his own nephew. Or had Luke been threatened by something that Ben did it would have been at least a more plausible explanation for Luke having ill feelings towards Ben. Perhaps Ben threatened to kill Leia. Vader provoked Luke in Jedi when he said he would try to turn her to the dark side. THAT would have been more believable than what we got.
My argument isn't based on a comic book, or novel, or video game, or a deleted scene, it's based on what happened in the previous movies. Not some nostalgia I had playing in my back yard as Luke, but what was on screen. It all comes down to the writing.
The new trilogy SHOULD be about the next generation of freedom fighters, but there was absolutely no need to destroy the legacy of the original characters just to make Rey, Poe, and Finn look good. If they had to do that in order for the new cast to shine, then perhaps they should have considered writing more compelling characters, or at the very least shown respect to what had come before and have the original cast pass the responsibility of saving the galaxy to the new cast.
There were more graceful and respectful ways to have done that without having to insult the legacy of the story or large portions of the fandom and they have overtly done both.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and perhaps we may never see eye to eye, but that's why we are all here discussing this atrocious garbage heap of a movie. So before anyone accuses anyone of not being a fan, lets just be straight here. We are ALL fans. Whether we think this movie is terrible, or we love it, we clearly all love Star Wars and at the end of the day we have to remember that.
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I was talking about this with a friend the other day. If you are going to base Ben's turn around a scene that you will replay three different times in a SW movie, it needs to be more exciting than a man in a hut standing over a sleeping boy. Have a more dynamic scene where we can actually get a vastly different visual perspective, instead of the same dark scene with micro expression changes.
And as a side note, the fact that Rey hears Kylo's version and it causes her to attack Luke is absolutely at the crux of what's wrong with Rey's character in TLJ. She cares more about Luke "creating" Kylo Ren than she does about Kylo murdering a bunch of students, killing Han, and maiming Finn(who could be dead now for all Rey knows). Then she calls Kylo the last hope of the Resistance... for me, the worst line in the movie.
And as a side note, the fact that Rey hears Kylo's version and it causes her to attack Luke is absolutely at the crux of what's wrong with Rey's character in TLJ. She cares more about Luke "creating" Kylo Ren than she does about Kylo murdering a bunch of students, killing Han, and maiming Finn(who could be dead now for all Rey knows). Then she calls Kylo the last hope of the Resistance... for me, the worst line in the movie.
joshvanrad
Sr Member
This raises another bit of criticism I have for the film.
We know that Snoke was working on corrupting Ben, and TFA makes it sound like that was really the catalyst for Ben's departure from the Jedi academy. The scene with Luke attacking a seemingly harmless kid either shows Luke as a coward or Snoke as an incredibly powerful deceiver. I could accept the second explanation if they would have shown even the slightest bit of Snoke exercising those powers, but without that I just have to assume Luke is an absolute coward.
We know that Snoke was working on corrupting Ben, and TFA makes it sound like that was really the catalyst for Ben's departure from the Jedi academy. The scene with Luke attacking a seemingly harmless kid either shows Luke as a coward or Snoke as an incredibly powerful deceiver. I could accept the second explanation if they would have shown even the slightest bit of Snoke exercising those powers, but without that I just have to assume Luke is an absolute coward.
Seeing how old Ben already was at the time of the misunderstanding between him and Luke, you would think not many years had passed at all between then and when he became Kylo. However if you look at Luke, he looks like he's aged substantially from that moment until when Rey finds him on Ach-To. They maybe should have de-aged Ben Solo by another 10 years or something. OR maybe not show any sort of flashback and just had it kept a conversation, the way the other films do it.
Just how long was the First Order running before Kylo? Where did Snoke come in and how did he assume control of the empire? How did Kylo get worked right into being a leader of the First Order? Did Snoke just make an announcement one day at a quick all-hands meeting?
Just how long was the First Order running before Kylo? Where did Snoke come in and how did he assume control of the empire? How did Kylo get worked right into being a leader of the First Order? Did Snoke just make an announcement one day at a quick all-hands meeting?
CT1138
Sr Member
Aaaaand we're back to the circlejerk. -_-
We clearly don't see the whole story. After Kylo knocks out Luke, the Knights of Ren show up and kidnap or kill everybody. We don't see that, but it's called implicit story telling. We don't NEED to see it. We know it happens. We never see Luke taking a crap, either, but we know it happens. Yoda says in TPM "Fear is the path to the Dark Side." We see it in Anakin. He turned to the Dark Side because he was afraid of losing his wife like he lost his mother. His fear of loss turned him into the Emperor's dark enforcer. Like his grandfather before him, fear created Kylo Ren.
It's not ignored. Luke clearly tells Rey that when he came-to the temple was in flames and several of his students were either dead or missing.
We clearly don't see the whole story. After Kylo knocks out Luke, the Knights of Ren show up and kidnap or kill everybody. We don't see that, but it's called implicit story telling. We don't NEED to see it. We know it happens. We never see Luke taking a crap, either, but we know it happens. Yoda says in TPM "Fear is the path to the Dark Side." We see it in Anakin. He turned to the Dark Side because he was afraid of losing his wife like he lost his mother. His fear of loss turned him into the Emperor's dark enforcer. Like his grandfather before him, fear created Kylo Ren.
I thought Kylo took some sympathetic students with him and formed the Knights of Ren.
Nicely said, CT1138. Now, to some of what was said in response...
Are you talking about the scene in Rey's vision in TFA? The Knights in the rain? That's not them destroying Luke's academy. Or are you talking about something else in TFA I'm not remembering?
What I took from that was more... *thinks* There are a couple things I've seen exploring theoretcially meddling in the past. Stopping Columbus from discovering the Americas, like by maybe convincing Ferdinand and Isabella not to bankroll him. Or killing Hitler during WWI to prevent his later rise to power. But when conditions are right, there's a certain inevitability at work. With the improvements in navigation and shipbuilding combined with the Turks taking Constantinople and throttling overland trade between Europe and Asia, the incentive to find oceanic alternatives was too strong -- someone would have found the New World around 1500. Likewise, conditions in Weimar Germany were so awful, and the rise of fascism elsewhere in Europe already happening in response to what the Great War had left people with, that a charismatic totalitarian leader promising a return to greatness and bolstering morale by scapegoating an already-scorned subset of the population was gonna happen.
And we have known since the original Star Wars that the Force often has its own agenda, inscrutible to many. Just as Anakin being unable to shake the visions of his mother or Padmé dying, just as Luke being unable to get the vision of his friends' suffering on Cloud City out of his head, it raises some questions. Was the Force making the visions so insistent to drive events along a certain path? Did the Force want Anakin to go Dark Side? Did it want Luke to cut his training short? Did Luke see many futures, all with the suffering his nephew would cause? Was the Force channelling things in a certain direction again?
Numerous crimes? All I can think of is killing the Jedi Younglings. Even if the Jedi had betrayed the Republic, approaching it like a cult and rescuing the kids to deprogram them would be a PR coup for the fledgling Empire (and give Palpatine much raw material to winnow through for potential Inquisitors and such). So Vader's actions there were the least defensible I can find in his career. Everything else was in defense of the Empire. From his point of view, the Rebels were the criminals and terrorists, and killing your enemy in wartime is no crime.
Kylo, on the other hand, seems to have been going about killing innocents for various reasons. We still don't know what the story is behind the Knights in the rain that Rey saw, but the village of Church of the Force pilgrims on Jakku was definite overkill, and Lor San Tekka was no threat. And we don't know how far beyond current events Luke was seeing/being shown.
Huh... I had zero problem understanding Luke saw a vision of the future where Ben would cause worse suffering than Vader. That's what he said. I didn't need to see the vision, or have spelled out what those atrocities would be or when they'd take place. I also have a feeling we're going to learn at least a little more about what Snoke was up to.
Which leads me to...
Five years before TFA, Luke and Ben were exploring beyond easy communications rage. All Leia knew was that they were looking for something. I presume this is when Snoke got his hooks into Ben, directly or remotely. His fall was probably exacerbated by the revelation that his grandfather was actually Darth Vader. All that when he's about 24-25. Don't know when he and Luke got back. Don't know how long after that before that fateful night in Ben's room. It probably wasn't too long after that, though, that he became Kylo Ren and the other students that went with him his Knights. They probably went straight to Snoke when they left.
But, while the First Order got started shortly after the Battle of Jakku, it was a long time establishing itself, finding supporters in the New Republic, finding suppliers for their matériel. They only had gone public six months to a year prior to TFA, and the New Republic Senate sought appeasement rather than confrontation. Worlds had been joining them willingly, after all. It wasn't like they were going out and conquering, like the Empire had. Never mind that they have Stormtroopers and TIE Fighters and such... Leia's just fearmongering when she says they're a threat.
Now... Whether Snoke was affecting the vision Luke saw, or whether Luke was tapping into Snoke projecting programming dreams to Ben while he slept, we do know Snoke's capable of that level of a/v manipulation through the Force. We already know Luke's drawn to danger and has a tendency to act without full consideration. Some things one can learn or unlearn, other habits/traits can be harder to shake. He felt drawn to the cave, took his weapons against Yoda's advice, and lit up first when he saw the apparition of Vader. He ignored Yoda and Ben and left to go save his friends, ran into the real Vader, and lit up first. Then, as the "wise Jedi Knight" who had gone unarmed into Jabba's palace to save his friend... He felt pulled to turn himself in to give his friends a better chance and to maybe save his father, but then, at the Emperor's goading, he... *sigh* ...Lit up first.
I see it as an evolution of the character that, while he still had that kind of poor impulse control, little defense against intrusive thoughts, while he still lit up first... At least this time, he didn't immediately attack first, as well. He took a moment to recognize what he'd done, and reversed himself. I don't see any of that as cowardice.
And as for Luke's aging? It's been pretty well-known for some time that stress ages a person far more than the passage of time does. Between that night and when we see him again a few years later, he's had plenty of time on his own in harsh survival conditions to stew on how he screwed everything up, and good.
Now, one thing Psab said...
This I definitely agree with. I would have been far happier if Han and Leia had semi-retired. If Han had found the Falcon as in the movie, but then skip the rathtars, Guavians, and Kanjiklub. They ask him to rejoin the fight, he waves it off with "I'm getting too old for that stuff, but I'll take you to someone who might be able to help". Leaves the Erevanna to take them to Maz's castle and have another turn behind the Falcon controls. After the First Order attacks and his reunion with Leia, other things would have to play out differently, but I'd much rather they ride off together into the sunset, to fade away as Heroes Emeritus. She got the Resistance going -- she can step aside and let the younger folks fight for what's right.
More than that would require much more reworking of story. Which I have no qualms about, but won't put in a discussion about what we did get.
But at the same time... If they'd gone in episode order, Star Wars had new actors playing Old Obi-Wan and Darth Vader. And Obi-Wan died in the first film for the new generation of heroes, partly to give Luke motivation and partly because he could help more as a ghost. Padmé's dead, we don't see Bail Organa at all, we don't see Mon Mothma or Ackbar til the third film... So while I agree it could have been done better, it's not like there's a set inter-generational standard they're breaking.
Are you talking about the scene in Rey's vision in TFA? The Knights in the rain? That's not them destroying Luke's academy. Or are you talking about something else in TFA I'm not remembering?
What I took from that was more... *thinks* There are a couple things I've seen exploring theoretcially meddling in the past. Stopping Columbus from discovering the Americas, like by maybe convincing Ferdinand and Isabella not to bankroll him. Or killing Hitler during WWI to prevent his later rise to power. But when conditions are right, there's a certain inevitability at work. With the improvements in navigation and shipbuilding combined with the Turks taking Constantinople and throttling overland trade between Europe and Asia, the incentive to find oceanic alternatives was too strong -- someone would have found the New World around 1500. Likewise, conditions in Weimar Germany were so awful, and the rise of fascism elsewhere in Europe already happening in response to what the Great War had left people with, that a charismatic totalitarian leader promising a return to greatness and bolstering morale by scapegoating an already-scorned subset of the population was gonna happen.
And we have known since the original Star Wars that the Force often has its own agenda, inscrutible to many. Just as Anakin being unable to shake the visions of his mother or Padmé dying, just as Luke being unable to get the vision of his friends' suffering on Cloud City out of his head, it raises some questions. Was the Force making the visions so insistent to drive events along a certain path? Did the Force want Anakin to go Dark Side? Did it want Luke to cut his training short? Did Luke see many futures, all with the suffering his nephew would cause? Was the Force channelling things in a certain direction again?
Numerous crimes? All I can think of is killing the Jedi Younglings. Even if the Jedi had betrayed the Republic, approaching it like a cult and rescuing the kids to deprogram them would be a PR coup for the fledgling Empire (and give Palpatine much raw material to winnow through for potential Inquisitors and such). So Vader's actions there were the least defensible I can find in his career. Everything else was in defense of the Empire. From his point of view, the Rebels were the criminals and terrorists, and killing your enemy in wartime is no crime.
Kylo, on the other hand, seems to have been going about killing innocents for various reasons. We still don't know what the story is behind the Knights in the rain that Rey saw, but the village of Church of the Force pilgrims on Jakku was definite overkill, and Lor San Tekka was no threat. And we don't know how far beyond current events Luke was seeing/being shown.
Huh... I had zero problem understanding Luke saw a vision of the future where Ben would cause worse suffering than Vader. That's what he said. I didn't need to see the vision, or have spelled out what those atrocities would be or when they'd take place. I also have a feeling we're going to learn at least a little more about what Snoke was up to.
Which leads me to...
Five years before TFA, Luke and Ben were exploring beyond easy communications rage. All Leia knew was that they were looking for something. I presume this is when Snoke got his hooks into Ben, directly or remotely. His fall was probably exacerbated by the revelation that his grandfather was actually Darth Vader. All that when he's about 24-25. Don't know when he and Luke got back. Don't know how long after that before that fateful night in Ben's room. It probably wasn't too long after that, though, that he became Kylo Ren and the other students that went with him his Knights. They probably went straight to Snoke when they left.
But, while the First Order got started shortly after the Battle of Jakku, it was a long time establishing itself, finding supporters in the New Republic, finding suppliers for their matériel. They only had gone public six months to a year prior to TFA, and the New Republic Senate sought appeasement rather than confrontation. Worlds had been joining them willingly, after all. It wasn't like they were going out and conquering, like the Empire had. Never mind that they have Stormtroopers and TIE Fighters and such... Leia's just fearmongering when she says they're a threat.
Now... Whether Snoke was affecting the vision Luke saw, or whether Luke was tapping into Snoke projecting programming dreams to Ben while he slept, we do know Snoke's capable of that level of a/v manipulation through the Force. We already know Luke's drawn to danger and has a tendency to act without full consideration. Some things one can learn or unlearn, other habits/traits can be harder to shake. He felt drawn to the cave, took his weapons against Yoda's advice, and lit up first when he saw the apparition of Vader. He ignored Yoda and Ben and left to go save his friends, ran into the real Vader, and lit up first. Then, as the "wise Jedi Knight" who had gone unarmed into Jabba's palace to save his friend... He felt pulled to turn himself in to give his friends a better chance and to maybe save his father, but then, at the Emperor's goading, he... *sigh* ...Lit up first.
I see it as an evolution of the character that, while he still had that kind of poor impulse control, little defense against intrusive thoughts, while he still lit up first... At least this time, he didn't immediately attack first, as well. He took a moment to recognize what he'd done, and reversed himself. I don't see any of that as cowardice.
And as for Luke's aging? It's been pretty well-known for some time that stress ages a person far more than the passage of time does. Between that night and when we see him again a few years later, he's had plenty of time on his own in harsh survival conditions to stew on how he screwed everything up, and good.
Now, one thing Psab said...
This I definitely agree with. I would have been far happier if Han and Leia had semi-retired. If Han had found the Falcon as in the movie, but then skip the rathtars, Guavians, and Kanjiklub. They ask him to rejoin the fight, he waves it off with "I'm getting too old for that stuff, but I'll take you to someone who might be able to help". Leaves the Erevanna to take them to Maz's castle and have another turn behind the Falcon controls. After the First Order attacks and his reunion with Leia, other things would have to play out differently, but I'd much rather they ride off together into the sunset, to fade away as Heroes Emeritus. She got the Resistance going -- she can step aside and let the younger folks fight for what's right.
More than that would require much more reworking of story. Which I have no qualms about, but won't put in a discussion about what we did get.
But at the same time... If they'd gone in episode order, Star Wars had new actors playing Old Obi-Wan and Darth Vader. And Obi-Wan died in the first film for the new generation of heroes, partly to give Luke motivation and partly because he could help more as a ghost. Padmé's dead, we don't see Bail Organa at all, we don't see Mon Mothma or Ackbar til the third film... So while I agree it could have been done better, it's not like there's a set inter-generational standard they're breaking.
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CT1138
Sr Member
I was never clear to me whether the Knights of Ren were formed before or after Kylo's turn.
sztriki
Sr Member
Ah, guess he forgot that only your preferred replies are permitted to your posts.
Let me translate: what he meant is that it has been established that Ben killed most of the Jedi apprentices and took some with him. Luke even says in TLJ that Snoke has already corrupted Ben's mind. So the "it's aaaaaaaall a big misunderstanding" concept is contrary to what was established previously. Unless Kylo turned on Luke because of that big misunderstanding and on a whim converted a few more students before he killed the rest and left. Therefore if Ben's mind was already corrupted at the point when Luke considered killing him then Luke did NOT create Kylo Ren and if he knows it (and he does) then there's no real reason for him to feel responsible. Therefore the premise of the movie is challenged too.
I'm not sure where you get this concept from. "Always in motion the future is" said Yoda and that's about it. Luke is simply too impatient and Vader knew he would touch a nerve there so that he can lure him out. There was absolutely no word in the original Star Wars about the Force wanting or willing anything. It can certainly explained into it.
So we're gonna rewrite Star Wars history to fit an argument defending the new movie...That's like when that other bloke said that John Williams ripped off countless musical pieces when he created the original score as a defense just because someone criticised Rogue One's music and he happened to be in love with everything that is Rogue One. I might be wrong but Vader was considered one of the biggest movie baddies quite a lot before the "he killed younglings" bit came into existence. Completely being cool with a planet being blown up is a mere folly, defending and enforcing the weapon that did that as well, overseeing and enforcing the construction of a second one too, so is maintaining the oppressive government that builds and bases its power on said weapon...
Make sure you don't talk to people about Hitler, your views might not be popular. :lol
I thought that was implicitly told as well...?
CT1138
Sr Member
Vader was not too far gone.
Ben Solo was not too far gone.
Ben's mind was corrupted, as was Vader's, but neither were too far gone to be turned back to the light at the moments that Luke confronted them. Luke feels responsible because he made the mistake of believing that Ben may have been too far gone. In hindsight, he looked back, and saw his mistake, and realized that Ben still had a chance to be a good person. That's where the "Always in motion is the future" line comes in. Our destinies are determined by the choices we make in life. Train Anakin or not? Let Padme die or not? Join Vader or not? Confront Vader or not? Kill Ben Solo or not? These choices are what have defined the saga. Ben Solo was corrupted, but he wasn't a lost cause, and Luke realized that as soon as hit ignited his lightsaber. But, it was already too late. From Ben's point of view, he only saw Luke attacking him with a manic look in his eyes.
:facepalm
More that Snoke was filling him with conflicting stuff and he was somewhere near the brink. One could argue Snoke let the dreams "bleed" so Luke would be drawn to it, counting on his impulsivity to tip Ben's balance away from the Light. Regardless, the lightsaber-in-the-hut incident was the final straw, not the entirety.
"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially -- but it also obeys your commands."
...and...
"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."
Plus more, but the implication is strong that is has a "mind" and "will" apart from what those who can feel it have.
So we're gonna rewrite Star Wars history to fit an argument defending the new movie...That's like when that other bloke said that John Williams ripped off countless musical pieces when he created the original score as a defense just because someone criticised Rogue One's music and he happened to be in love with everything that is Rogue One. I might be wrong but Vader was considered one of the biggest movie baddies quite a lot before the "he killed younglings" bit came into existence. Completely being cool with a planet being blown up is a mere folly, defending and enforcing the weapon that did that as well, overseeing and enforcing the construction of a second one too, so is maintaining the oppressive government that builds and bases its power on said weapon...
Enhhh... Aiding and abetting versus direct commission. I thought we were talking about things the baddies actually did with their own hands, so the stain is on them and them alone.
What -- he was a vegetarian and liked dogs...
I kid. Partially. Point is, no one is a villain in their own eyes. In this case, neither Vader nor Kylo -- I was pointing out the things that, to an outside observer, would be harder to justify than others.
sztriki
Sr Member
I understand that and I’m not even arguing with that but the movies established that Ben is corrupted and Luke hasn’t done anything to right that wrong if he really realized that Kylo wasn’t beyond saving. But then later he tells Rey that he actually is beyond saving then Rey tries to prove him wrong only to find that he really is beyond saving. So again what were the motivations and who was right?
Ha, you’re absolutely right. I stand corrected.
Come on, that’s not the original Star Wars...:lol
QUOTE=Inquisitor Peregrinus;4461979]
Point is, no one is a villain in their own eyes. In this case, neither Vader nor Kylo -- I was pointing out the things that, to an outside observer, would be harder to justify than others.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely but that’s not a pass for Vader and a no-pass for Kylo.
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