Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)
- Thread starter Bryancd
- Start date
Bigdaddy
Master Member
Yes....yes I did watch the movies, many, many times.
I get the spiritual subtext, I just don't see the Empire as anti religious within the films. The rebellion doesn't have a religious motivation, and the Empire's actions against them aren't based crushing a religion. Are there examples of it in the OT I missed?
CT1138
Sr Member
Not only does Tagge refer to the Force as a religion, but Tarkin does as well, referring to Vader as the only thing left of the Jedi religion. The Force is not just meant to be a used for spiritual subtext, but as an analogue of religion too. One of the most famous sayings in Star Wars, "May the Force be with you" is actually very close to Catholicism's "The Lord be with you." You never hear those words uttered by the Empire. Ever. They don't acknowledge the Force as anything but superstition. They're agnostic towards the Force. The Rebellion is the one who actively sees the Force as something needing acknowledgement. It's a religion in the same vein as, say, Buddhism. It's non-deity, but still has people who follow its will and meditate upon it.
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
I don't remember Tagge referring to the Force at all. Perhaps you are confusing him for Motti, who is the one that criticizes the Force and gets choked out by Vader.
Tarkin's quote did not criticize or demonstrate intolerance to the Force. He is merely stating that he believes Jedi have gone extinct don't exist anymore. In fact, he gives the caveat that Vader may be right about the OWK being present. Which would be due to sensing OWK's connection to the Force.
I, for one, did not argue against the Force being a surrogate for religion. In fact I identified your "Use the Force, Luke." quote as referring to religion. You're the one that inserted it into a list of what you thought were political statements.
Failing to say "May the Force be with you." does not prove the Empire is anti-Force. It only proves it's not within the Empire's culture to say that.
You are conflating Motti's disdain for the Force with the Empire at large. Also, agnostic means neutral...not skeptical or denying.
@Bones_68
Han is not a member of the Empire and thus does not bolster CT's argument. Han also comes around to saying "May the Force be with you" making him an even worse example of an anti-Force person.
Bigdaddy
Master Member
I'm not suggesting that the Jedi and Sith aren't religious orders, but the political motivations of the Empire weren't anti religious. Nor were the rebels pro religion. The Empire has 2 powerful wizards that wield "religious" magic, use it to keep order among the ranks and inspire fear. The rebellion has one guy that sibscribes to the Jedi religion and he's just a pilot. Luke is the only one people say " may the Force be with you" to, much as I might say "Happy Hanukkah" to a Jewish friend even though I'm not Jewish.
So I see the religious aspect as being part of some character motivations, but not reaching into the broader actions of galactic conquest.
I suppose a lot of this depends on the lense the individual audience member is viewing it through.
Frankly I seriously doubt GL put as much deep thought into this as fans do.
We all look at the world "from a certain point of view"
So I see the religious aspect as being part of some character motivations, but not reaching into the broader actions of galactic conquest.
I suppose a lot of this depends on the lense the individual audience member is viewing it through.
Frankly I seriously doubt GL put as much deep thought into this as fans do.
We all look at the world "from a certain point of view"
Last edited:
Bones_68
Sr Member
True, but I only posted the Han clip to reinforce the idea that the Force was in fact viewed as a religion in the movie. We seem to agree on that much.
But it's no accident that the only two Imperials who discuss the Force (Motti and Tarkin) in the first movie do so dismissively while proudly boasting that the Death Star is now the "ultimate power in the universe."
Motti: "Your sad devotion to that ancient religion..."
Tarkin: "The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion."
As you said, it doesn't mean every single Imperial is anti-Force. Among individuals, your mileage may vary, obviously. But based on the limited information Lucas provides in the movie, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that the Imperials have, in general, traded religious faith for technological force and brute strength.
Greenie
Sr Member
FIxed that for you.
Last edited by a moderator:
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
Yes, I am fully in agreement that Force use is an analog for religion. And that Motti is fully dismissive of it. I wonder how he regards it after the Force-choke.
Tarkin just thinks Force users are a dead or dying breed. He acknowledges it's power by telling Vader to release the Force-choke. He also acknowledges that Vader may be sensing OWK through the Force. It's right after the line you quote in the movie. I don't see how those acknowledgements can lead to a conclusion that he dismisses it.
Huge nope there. General Dodonna to all the assembled pilots, after asking if there are any further questions and getting none: "Then man your ships. And may the Force be with you."
Bones_68
Sr Member
Yeah, with Tarkin, I think it depends on how you want to read him. We know he's a well schooled bureaucrat. He likely has a strong enough sense of self-preservation to know that you never mock Vader to his face (case in point, Motti). So, when we get this line from Tarkin...
"You, my friend, are all that's left of that ancient religion."
...it strikes me as a diplomatic way of saying, "I'm fond of my windpipe so I will show you a certain amount of respect as long as we have to work together." It's not blatantly disrespectful but the "ancient religion" part sounds dismissive and I suspect "friend" is completely insincere.
But that's just me filling in some blanks for the fun of it.
EDIT: Actually, Tarkin doesn't use the word "ancient," the line is:
"The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion."
So I still think it shows that he doesn't regard the Force too highly.
Last edited:
Mr Webber
Master Member
There is some plot leaks online from the same guy who correctly leaked the TLJ plot, lol plot, sorry, and well, snooze fest. I cant wait for it to be all over and done with.
Mr Webber
Master Member
Warning...Potential Spoilers.........
https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/8gks0k/i_have_read_a_very_early_storyboard_for_episode_ix/
Last edited:
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
If you think he is scared of getting force-choked. That would actually be a pretty big sign that he has either respect or fear (or both) of the Force. Which would definitely indicate that he is not dismissive of it and in fact is mindful of it.
Similar threads
