Mr Webber
Master Member
But he`s simply a wizz at the numbers game though.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
- Start date
But he`s simply a wizz at the numbers game though.
jlee562
Sr Member
Stills? What? Who said anything about stills?
Nothing about comic books say "visual spectacle" to me.
Oh, gee, really? Please tell me more about how to do film criticism.
DarthLee
Sr Member
I mean stills by...pictures or frames that are visually stunning. Alot of games out there are visually stunning, but are terrible at gameplay. TLJ, was in fact visually stunning, but an uncomfortable movie to follow and enjoy as a whole.
Ok Mr sarcasm
, I did state, that what I thought, was my own opinion.If you like to sit through 2.5 hours of cool special effects....then go right ahead. If you like to get lost in the pretty sky and stars and cute little porgs, and ignore plot holes, terrible jokes, dialog and scenes that jump around so much so, that people actually have to see it twice to get a hint of where the story is going. Then thats your prerogative. And Disney loves you for it and Bryan too
I'm glad I watched it. Im glad there is Disney, they gave myself and my children alot of entertainment, and TLJ was no exception. But they built a square, made of sandstone, and called it a pyramid. A beautiful structure, but not a pyramid.
jlee562
Sr Member
Ok Mr sarcasm
Everything everybody posts with regards to whether or not they, as an individual, liked the movie, is a subjective opinion. There's no need to state as such, at least not in reply to me.
This is where the "subjective" part of "subjective opinion comes in." I wasn't lost in the plot. I don't find some things that detractors have pointed out (Snoke, Rey's parents, etc) are "plot holes." I've already said many times that there's too much humor for my taste. So you're either ignoring what I've said, or not taking my earlier posts into account as you try express what you feel my opinion actually is.
If all you took away from everything I've written in this thread was that I thought the special effects were cool, therefore "GREAT MOVIE!" either you missed something, or I've miscommunicated something.
I'm an OT fan, being thirteen when it came out, my wife, my daughter, son in law, father in law, mother in law, and my three employees who have seen TLJ all enjoyed it. I know one person personally who was disappointed in it.
And a second viewing tempered that disappointment.
Most of the hatred I see anywhere exists here, and a wee bit on Facebook. I do not know any the people commenting in this thread personally.
To take this further, I only know two people personally who liked BVS. Everyone else I know was sorely disappointed in it. Justice League took a huge financial hit because of BVS, it couldn't keep the goodwill WW generated. BVS couldn't even double its opening weekend box office, a huuuuuuuge drop off. JL is in the same boat and WB is going to lose around 150 million on JL.
Even a bad Marvel movie makes a profit because the formula works. I can't really tell you any quotes from a marvel movie, and they are fairly interchangeable, but they entertain and bring in the bucks.
Deadpool was a minor hit with a variation on the formula, which was about as risky as they've gotten in the past few years.
It's a real shame that Blade Runner 2049 lost its butt at the box office. Best movie I saw all year. But it only struck a chord with a small segment of the population. You have to hit with far more than just the fans to make your bucks back.
TLJ is hitting box office dollars somewhere in the middle-upper end that Disney realistically projected. That's the good. Will Episode 9 take a hit from the controversy TLJ has created? Well, we're a couple of years away from finding that out.
I really feel that the future will temper the butt-hurt from this movie. However, if fans literally walk away from the decades of Star Wars fandom over ONE movie they didn't like they weren't true fans anyway. I really didn't enjoy the prequels, although the third was kind of okay. I'm still a Star Wars fan, and I look forward the future of Star Wars. If a movie sucks, there's another one coming. If Solo is horrid, maybe the Obi Wan movie will be fun. My life won't be adversely affected by the quality or lack of quality in any movie.
Mr Webber
Master Member
I`ve always said never doubt the sincerity of self interest.
DarthLee
Sr Member
Which I find crucial to making it a good SW movie. A stand alone movie? maybe..
I must have misunderstood this, my apologies..
DarthLee
Sr Member
My boy just got his paycheck...booyaaa..Hesa' Luvin Da Last Jedi
Last edited:
It was hands down his best performance.
DarthLee
Sr Member
His best performance will be in Eps IX : The Return of the Last Jedi Strikes Back
Luke is not really dead, he is the most powerful Jedi, and he trains Rey, redeems Kylo and fights Snoke (the most powerful Dark Lord) and the new apprentice. Finn and Rose sacrifice themselves for the Resistance. Leia is now head of the Resistance, but gets drawn into a conflict and has to go into hiding. The apprentice is dead and Snoke escapes, barely, and we continue our story with Luke, Rey and Kylo (now Ben) in pursuit of evil Snoke and the remaining FO. Because now they know that Snoke has been training dark apprentices in a world far away. And thats where he has retreated to.
Luke was reluctant to train Rey because he new what it would cost Rey and now her brother Ben. He didnt want another conflict. He lost so many Jedi when Ben turned and doesnt want to risk any more. But now he is in a position where he has no choice. He disappeared only to confuse the FO and draw them out on their next move and keep and eye on Ben, to find the right moment to save him
Ok..just wishful thinking
Last edited:
jlee562
Sr Member
Wait, I just want to be clear with what you are saying here. What is it that you find is crucial? The pacing of the narrative threads in relation to each other?
To put it most simply, the film just worked for me, it's more than the sum of its parts. Hamill's performance is simply fantastic. I know some folks have a problem with how dark his character got, but if you can get past that, look at Hamill's eyes. Each one of his scenes is a master class in using facial expressions to convey emotion. And as I wrote many pages ago, the ending has a personal resonance with me because it reminded me of one of my favorite westerns, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. That's a film that I know somebody at Lucasfilm also holds in high regards, because there's a huge Italian movie poster for it hanging outside the Lucasfilm theater in the Presidio. That's maybe not a reason a whole lot of people are going to share for liking the movie, but it is one for me.
DarthLee
Sr Member
Yes, there was no center, the threads didnt mesh, IMO. Too many maybe. Finn.. just a crush on Rey. Rose.. a crush on Finn. And Luke was gone before anything could be established, other than "forget the force". Snoke? WTH? Nothing?...except gets cut in half, after reading minds? Like I said, too many threads that didnt intertwine with each other.
And the threads that were set up in TFA. I didnt find any "continuation".. to the " to be continued".
Rey was no better Jedi than in TFA, Finn, was just worried about Rey (for whatever reason, cause I still dont know) and now Poe, who started out as a calm cool collective character, turned into a slap stick, punch line, character.
Edit: That was abit harsh, because I did enjoy the movie. I dont think I would have had to watch TFA to enjoy it. But if we are talking about Trilogy or more over Sequel Trilogy, then...hmmmm
Last edited:
astroboy
Master Member
Zuiun
Sr Member
Neither you, me, nor really anyone can define the sincerity of Hamill's statements... except Hamill himself.
The thing is, we can discuss the film back and forth here, detailing what we liked and didn't, and our interpretations of various elements... and I'm all for that. Because even when I disagree with a viewpoint, it forces me to evaluate my interpretation to see if it still holds true for me. Same goes for reviews, both positive and negative.
But far too often in this thread I feel like links to videos or articles are posted like some sort of grand "gotcha" aimed at the opposing viewpoint... and that's just destined to backfire. As in this case. The fact that Hamill now calls the film great doesn't change your mind about it one iota. And that's ok.
doctorDWwho
Sr Member
You know, this is incredibly applicable to a lot of recent happenings on the internet.
I'll be watching tlj again this Friday, so I'll see if it's any better the second time through
DarthLee
Sr Member
I agree..
As a family, there is no need to bring the outside world in our conflict... In other words, say what you have to say without the "see he said that too", unless its one of us...of course,
Now.. If Mark or Johnson or Abrams wants join us and chime in here, he is more than welcome
Last edited:
@daddyfrom Naboo, I'm gonna shuffle your comments up a little to respond to two different things you bring up...
Enhhh... George. George wanted to be a race car driver, but his eyesight was too bad for that, so be became the track photographer at his race track there in Modesto. He stood next to the guy do filmed the races, they worked in the same darkroom, and he became fascinated by the editing process -- how much control the editor has over what the viewer actually sees/experiences. So he went to USC to become a film editor.
While there, he got involved with the people trying to break out of the "Hollywood system" and do actual creative, daring endeavors. He went to work for American Zoetrope with Coppola, who told him he needed to write and direct at least one film so he could appreciate those aspects of the process and what writers and directors need to know, in order to get what he wants in the editing bay.
So he did a full version of his student film, THX-1138. Then he did a paean to his youth with American Graffiti. Then he dusted off his notes for a take on the serialized Saturday morning movie shorts he loved as a kid. He's definitely not an "artiste", but neither is he focused on the business of filmmaking (except as he had to become in order to hold onto the rights, in order to actually not go broke, in order to be able to make what he wanted to make). Look at the rest. Howard the Duck? WIllow? Redtails? Not to mention previously-discussed Star Wars ennui. His approach to filmmaking is a rather ADHD "Hmm... What do I want to make now? I think I'll do that."
That's actually what I feel has been the biggest weakness of all the Star Wars films -- you can't think about them too hard or the cracks start appearing. My approach to storytelling was inspired by Animaniacs -- a straightforward story that can be enjoyed by anyone, with layers of depth and meaning that become more apparent upon delving. I don't believe that making the understructure complex and realistic and consistent means that the surface story needs to force the viewer to think. I love a character-driven adventure. I think the best movies are neither action alone, nor character alone, but, to quote Ferdinand Porsche, "the aesthetic synthesis of the two."
Unhelpful, And kinda demonstrating his point. Back to the discussion...
I highly recommend picking up Rinzler's "making of" books for each of the OT films. Not only are the insights into how the movies got made wonderful context for any fan of the OT, but it helps clarify a lot of these points. It wasn't quite writing scenes that were to be filmed the next day, but a lot of story points weren't settled until filming was underway. The story for Empire was largely set, but they were still struggling to come up with the perfect thing to shake Luke's world to the foundations. They finally came up with The Line™ a couple days before that scene was to be shot.
For Jedi, there were even more problems. George was tired of doing Star Wars, so he was mushing the last four films' worth of material into one. He had to come up with a new maguffin for Our Heroes to destroy, as he'd lifted the Death Star from the end of his notes to plunk into the one film he thought he was going to get to do (and, in the end, the answer was... another Death Star -- only BIGGER). He felt the need to revise the aliens who help Our Heroes on the jungle planet, since he'd lifted the Wookiees (in the form of Chewbacca) from that part of the story, too, and had established him as an intelligent, tool-using, spaceship-flying being, and didn't want to show his people as primitives.
And, of course, the matter of Luke's sister. That was to be a new character Luke would be looking for through the latter part of his arc. When they didn't have time for that development, during one of the story sessions, they pretty much agreed it had to be Leia, since there weren't a whole lot of women in the previous two films to choose from.
As for whether the resulting films are better or worse for the make-it-up-as-you-go method...? Highly subjective. I've seen enough of George's early notes, and un-pursued plot points to stand by my assertion that the Star Wars Saga we could have gotten might have been so much better.
Well, Lucas' judgment is even more questionable, considering he feels Empire is the "weakest" of the first six.
--Jonah
DaddyfromNaboo said:
Enhhh... George. George wanted to be a race car driver, but his eyesight was too bad for that, so be became the track photographer at his race track there in Modesto. He stood next to the guy do filmed the races, they worked in the same darkroom, and he became fascinated by the editing process -- how much control the editor has over what the viewer actually sees/experiences. So he went to USC to become a film editor.
While there, he got involved with the people trying to break out of the "Hollywood system" and do actual creative, daring endeavors. He went to work for American Zoetrope with Coppola, who told him he needed to write and direct at least one film so he could appreciate those aspects of the process and what writers and directors need to know, in order to get what he wants in the editing bay.
So he did a full version of his student film, THX-1138. Then he did a paean to his youth with American Graffiti. Then he dusted off his notes for a take on the serialized Saturday morning movie shorts he loved as a kid. He's definitely not an "artiste", but neither is he focused on the business of filmmaking (except as he had to become in order to hold onto the rights, in order to actually not go broke, in order to be able to make what he wanted to make). Look at the rest. Howard the Duck? WIllow? Redtails? Not to mention previously-discussed Star Wars ennui. His approach to filmmaking is a rather ADHD "Hmm... What do I want to make now? I think I'll do that."
That's actually what I feel has been the biggest weakness of all the Star Wars films -- you can't think about them too hard or the cracks start appearing. My approach to storytelling was inspired by Animaniacs -- a straightforward story that can be enjoyed by anyone, with layers of depth and meaning that become more apparent upon delving. I don't believe that making the understructure complex and realistic and consistent means that the surface story needs to force the viewer to think. I love a character-driven adventure. I think the best movies are neither action alone, nor character alone, but, to quote Ferdinand Porsche, "the aesthetic synthesis of the two."
Unhelpful, And kinda demonstrating his point. Back to the discussion...
I highly recommend picking up Rinzler's "making of" books for each of the OT films. Not only are the insights into how the movies got made wonderful context for any fan of the OT, but it helps clarify a lot of these points. It wasn't quite writing scenes that were to be filmed the next day, but a lot of story points weren't settled until filming was underway. The story for Empire was largely set, but they were still struggling to come up with the perfect thing to shake Luke's world to the foundations. They finally came up with The Line™ a couple days before that scene was to be shot.
For Jedi, there were even more problems. George was tired of doing Star Wars, so he was mushing the last four films' worth of material into one. He had to come up with a new maguffin for Our Heroes to destroy, as he'd lifted the Death Star from the end of his notes to plunk into the one film he thought he was going to get to do (and, in the end, the answer was... another Death Star -- only BIGGER). He felt the need to revise the aliens who help Our Heroes on the jungle planet, since he'd lifted the Wookiees (in the form of Chewbacca) from that part of the story, too, and had established him as an intelligent, tool-using, spaceship-flying being, and didn't want to show his people as primitives.
And, of course, the matter of Luke's sister. That was to be a new character Luke would be looking for through the latter part of his arc. When they didn't have time for that development, during one of the story sessions, they pretty much agreed it had to be Leia, since there weren't a whole lot of women in the previous two films to choose from.
As for whether the resulting films are better or worse for the make-it-up-as-you-go method...? Highly subjective. I've seen enough of George's early notes, and un-pursued plot points to stand by my assertion that the Star Wars Saga we could have gotten might have been so much better.
Well, Lucas' judgment is even more questionable, considering he feels Empire is the "weakest" of the first six.
--Jonah
Last edited by a moderator:
Similar threads
