Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

  • It was great. Loved it. Don't miss it at the theaters.

    Votes: 154 26.6%
  • It was good. Liked it very much. Worth the theater visit.

    Votes: 135 23.4%
  • It was okay. Not too pleased with it. Could watch it at the cinema once or wait for home video.

    Votes: 117 20.2%
  • It was disappointing. Watch it on home video instead.

    Votes: 70 12.1%
  • It was bad. Don't waste your time with it.

    Votes: 102 17.6%

  • Total voters
    578
Why was "You're nobody" devastating? Like, what about it bothers you? I'm genuinely curious here. I have my own thoughts on the subject, but I'd like to hear the defense of why Rey Kenobi/Rey Skywalker/Rey Palpatine/Rey Syfo-Dias (or whatever) is so much better than what actually happened?

If you recall, the second trailer to TFA starts off with the classic quote from ROTJ: "The Force is strong in my family. I have it. My sister has it." And its topped off with "You have that power too." TFA was mainly about Rey's journey to the awakening of the Force in her and a lot of people were hoping those words would explain her connection to it, why Luke's saber called to her, why she heard the voices of Jedis who she didn't know and who passed away before her, and how she could adapt to her powers so quickly.

Also, would "filthy junk traders who sold you for drinking money" and died paupers on Jakku even own something like this?
-yUOJNBptvYICcaNYSw-5cdnOLF4DIiie7eXKYTnQ1s.jpg
 
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If you recall, the second trailer to TFA starts off with the classic quote from ROTJ: "The Force is strong in my family. I have it. My sister has it." And its topped off with "You have that power too." TFA was mainly about Rey's journey to the awakening of the Force in her and a lot of people were hoping those words would explain her connection to it, why Luke's saber called to her, why she heard the voices of Jedis who she didn't know and who passed away before her, and how she could adapt to her powers so quickly.

Ah, I actually didn't watch any of the trailers. I skip trailers for most Star Wars movies nowadays, because I don't want my expectations to be built up in one direction or the other. I'd rather just go in a blank slate and take the film as it comes. So far, I think the only one I've seen is the Solo one.

That's not a dig against you, either, by the way. I came by this attitude after the TPM trailer, which looked AWESOME and was....well....TPM. :-\ After that, I stopped riding the hype train for Star Wars movies and basically would do media blackouts for films. Again, Solo is the only exception to that so far, because I'm investing almost nothing into it emotionally. I'm merely curious as to whether it'll be any good.

Anyway, to your points here, the basic issue sounds like "I thought there was gonna be a reason why she has this ability, and now there isn't." Please let me know if that doesn't really describe it, though.

If it does, however, I think that the films show that to some degree, just perhaps not in a way that you care for. It's not (as I recall) ever explicitly stated, but Rey has these abilities because the Force chose her. I can hazard guesses as to why, based on what we see in the films, but the answer as to why the Force picked her, I think, is because she's a nobody. Kylo Ren/Ben was a "somebody" and clearly, his power in the Force has run amok, destroyed the Jedi order, led to him killing his own father, try to kill his own mother, try to kill his uncle, etc. In short, Ben has ultimately failed the Force or at least needs to be countered.

I think the ultimate message of the film is that the Force is not a matter of bloodline or destiny, and that instead, there is an aspect of the Force that is manifesting in not merely Rey, but also the "nobody" who is the stable boy on Canto Bight. It would seem the Force is "choosing" nobodies now, perhaps because "somebodies" have proven to be unreliable custodians of it. Or maybe the Force is manifesting in the best of people -- the ones with the most reason to give in to anger, hatred, and despair, but who instead have chosen to help those in need the way Rey did with BB-8, and the way the stable hand does with Rose and Finn. Maybe that's the only way to balance out the evil that Ben has allowed himself to be consumed by (and maybe also the Knights of Ren?).


Anyway, let me flip this around. Suppose it's revealed in Ep. IX that, in fact, Snoke was lying all along, and Rey was actually the child of Obi-Wan's secret daughter (with Satine Kryze?). So, Rey's a Kenobi by bloodline. Would that make things all that much better? We say she's a Kenobi and boom, everything falls into place? For me, at least, that's just as much a cop out as saying "She's able to do all this stuff because the Force chose her." The Force chosing people makes just as much sense, and ultimately (to me) sends a more hopeful message: you don't have to be born into it; anybody could use the Force. Even a nobody.
 
If the powers that be at Disney have already decided that that is the point of the movie, i.e. you don't need to belong to a certain bloodline to be adept at the Force, then they should stand by their decision. All these new revelations about JJ having a different story treatment or JJ originally intending Rey to have relevant parentage sounds to me like damage control by Disney against the backlash from the fans which may give way to some retconning in IX. So to answer your question, if they were to finally reveal in IX that Rey is not a nobody but rather, a Skywalker/Kenobi/Windu/Palpatine etc, it would feel like just a cheap attempt to appease the fans.
 
Anyway, let me flip this around. Suppose it's revealed in Ep. IX that, in fact, Snoke was lying all along, and Rey was actually the child of Obi-Wan's secret daughter (with Satine Kryze?). So, Rey's a Kenobi by bloodline. Would that make things all that much better? We say she's a Kenobi and boom, everything falls into place? For me, at least, that's just as much a cop out as saying "She's able to do all this stuff because the Force chose her." The Force chosing people makes just as much sense, and ultimately (to me) sends a more hopeful message: you don't have to be born into it; anybody could use the Force. Even a nobody.

I've always kinda wondered about this theory - could she even be a Kenobi given everyone's ages at the time she would have been conceived/born?
 
I've always kinda wondered about this theory - could she even be a Kenobi given everyone's ages at the time she would have been conceived/born?

Well, great-granddaughter or whatever. I dunno. All I'm saying is, go ahead and connect her to one of the "big names" if you want. Does that make it any better? Does just doing that make it all work? I actually think it makes it worse. Not only is it ultimately pretty uninspired and lazy to say "She can do all this stuff because she's a Kenobiwalker. There. There's your answer," but it also kills the notion that the Force can manifest in anyone -- even a nobody -- and instead turns it into this staid notion of bloodlines and such. Sorry kids. I know you want to pretend like you could be a Jedi, but you can't because you weren't born a Kenobiwalker.
 
If the powers that be at Disney have already decided that that is the point of the movie, i.e. you don't need to belong to a certain bloodline to be adept at the Force, then they should stand by their decision. All these new revelations about JJ having a different story treatment or JJ originally intending Rey to have relevant parentage sounds to me like damage control by Disney against the backlash from the fans which may give way to some retconning in IX. So to answer your question, if they were to finally reveal in IX that Rey is not a nobody but rather, a Skywalker/Kenobi/Windu/Palpatine etc, it would feel like just a cheap attempt to appease the fans.

Simon Pegg making an aside comment regarding the different ideas for Rey's parentage JJ had isn't Disney PR damage control.
 
That's an interesting theory that the Force chose Rey, but it is also one of the problems I had with the prequels in the idea of the "will of the Force." It kind of goes against the idea that was initially created in the OT by making the Force more like a deity with a conscious will rather than an impartial energy that binds the universe together.

If that is the case then they might as well call the Force God, which changes the whole context of the story. Had the story been set up that way from the beginning then sure, but to change the framework to serve half developed ideas is not good story telling. It doesn't deepen the mythos to me, it just cheapens it. If you change the rules of the game halfway through then why bother playing at all because nobody wins in the end?
 
That's an interesting theory that the Force chose Rey, but it is also one of the problems I had with the prequels in the idea of the "will of the Force." It kind of goes against the idea that was initially created in the OT by making the Force more like a deity with a conscious will rather than an impartial energy that binds the universe together.

If that is the case then they might as well call the Force God, which changes the whole context of the story. Had the story been set up that way from the beginning then sure, but to change the framework to serve half developed ideas is not good story telling. It doesn't deepen the mythos to me, it just cheapens it. If you change the rules of the game halfway through then why bother playing at all because nobody wins in the end?

The Force acting with it's own "will" is something that has been established in the Clone Wars cartoon series and in Rebels.
 
Lucas established it in TPM and it carried to those shows but it's still an idea that works against what had come before.

Plus the shows may be canon but in the context of the movies they don't matter. I've said it time and again, if you need to watch a show, play a video game, or read a book to understand a major concept in a movie then your script is weak. I don't know how this concept is so hard for people to grasp.
 
Lucas established it in TPM and it carried to those shows but it's still an idea that works against what had come before.

Plus the shows may be canon but in the context of the movies they don't matter. I've said it time and again, if you need to watch a show, play a video game, or read a book to understand a major concept in a movie then your script is weak. I don't know how this concept is so hard for people to grasp.

Actually I think he was using Clone Wars to undue what he did int he PT and wanted to return mysticism and egalitarianism to the Force.
 
Plus the shows may be canon but in the context of the movies they don't matter. I've said it time and again, if you need to watch a show, play a video game, or read a book to understand a major concept in a movie then your script is weak. I don't know how this concept is so hard for people to grasp.

Exactly!!!
 
The Force chosing people makes just as much sense, and ultimately (to me) sends a more hopeful message: you don't have to be born into it; anybody could use the Force. Even a nobody.
Sorry to just pick on this one point, but it's something I see a fair amount and I don't understand it. All of the prequels and all the vast time that preceded them show us that there are Jedi's from every species in the galaxy, no matter how strange looking. They can make it all the way to the Jedi Council. Where does the idea come from that the Force is only passed through certain bloodlines, when it's quite literally the opposite?
 
Well, great-granddaughter or whatever. I dunno. All I'm saying is, go ahead and connect her to one of the "big names" if you want. Does that make it any better? Does just doing that make it all work? I actually think it makes it worse. Not only is it ultimately pretty uninspired and lazy to say "She can do all this stuff because she's a Kenobiwalker. There. There's your answer," but it also kills the notion that the Force can manifest in anyone -- even a nobody -- and instead turns it into this staid notion of bloodlines and such. Sorry kids. I know you want to pretend like you could be a Jedi, but you can't because you weren't born a Kenobiwalker.

It would explain why OWK was calling out to her in the vision. And IMO add an air of destiny to her character.

As far as killing the idea that anyone could be a force user, the PT handily establishes that force sensitives can come from lots of different places. And the OT had Yoda, and Palpatine to show us it isn't just Kenobis or Skywalkers.
 
Where does the idea come from that the Force is only passed through certain bloodlines, when it's quite literally the opposite?

I too keep on seeing this argument being used to justify the reason TLJ made Rey's parents nobodies. This has always been the case.
[Jedi younglings, also known as Jedi initiates, were Force-sensitive children recruited by the Jedi Order from various species across the galaxy.]
 
Also, would "filthy junk traders who sold you for drinking money" and died paupers on Jakku even own something like this?
View attachment 807390

Dude, do you know how much dosh blobmen give for 4 year old British girls in outer space? Best business out there! :lol

Anyway, let me flip this around. Suppose it's revealed in Ep. IX that, in fact, Snoke was lying all along, and Rey was actually the child of Obi-Wan's secret daughter (with Satine Kryze?). So, Rey's a Kenobi by bloodline. Would that make things all that much better? We say she's a Kenobi and boom, everything falls into place? For me, at least, that's just as much a cop out as saying "She's able to do all this stuff because the Force chose her."

That's very true and it ultimately comes down to the way the information is handled and what consequences it has. This would go back to previous discussions about mystery box effect and you're absolutely right that the way it played out was that it wasn't really a mystery for Rey, because she knew it all along, it was a mystery only for the audience. It does chime on an intellectual level with the "nobody from nowhere" vs "forceblooded noble psychopath" theme, but ultimately it doesn't really change Rey. It's difficult, I do agree the more I think about it that JJ wrote the character's situation (not necessarily the character itself) into a hole by the tease factor and it was bound to be a disappointment, but that's half of the story really to me, that's why I say the way it was played out voided the character-sided mystery of it.
And I also totally agree that unless you can make a really interesting impact (such as Vader's revelation was to Luke's character) it really doesn't matter who's whose uncle/daughter, whatever. That's why I would have liked to take a third route: get something new in.
Or if you want to stick to the nobody scenario, make it not known for her, build up her hopes, dreams that she might be someone then have the revelation be a revelation for her with some serious effects, an internal struggle, coming to terms with and her realizing that despite the internal struggles it really matters not.


Sorry to just pick on this one point, but it's something I see a fair amount and I don't understand it. All of the prequels and all the vast time that preceded them show us that there are Jedi's from every species in the galaxy, no matter how strange looking. They can make it all the way to the Jedi Council. Where does the idea come from that the Force is only passed through certain bloodlines, when it's quite literally the opposite?
Agreed with this 100% even if I hold the prequels in a really low regard.
 
Also, would "filthy junk traders who sold you for drinking money" and died paupers on Jakku even own something like this?
View attachment 807390

Who says they did? Maybe it was just a ship that was leaving at the time that she was being sold off. That's how she chose to remember it, justifying the belief that they would return for her. Or Kylo was lying or mislead by Snoke's influence on their force connection related visions.
 
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