So just what exactly is the relationship between Heiland and MPP?

Obviously, we all know that the Synchronar and Microflash share many design similarities, but I'm wondering what sort of legal (for lack of a better term?) relationship the 2 companies had with one another. Is one a licensed version of the other? One a ripoff of the other? For some reason I'm under the impression that the MPP is a knockoff of the Heiland but I can't find anything online to substantiate that.

Cheers!

As I understand Micro Precision Products was a Britain based company and independly build camera's for the european market ... in howfar it copied Heiland's products is indeed unclear ... here's the wiki info : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Precision_Products ... available directly from the MPP story book by Basil Skinner. I have a copy but it's buried under a lot of other books at the moment :wacko

Chaim

MCM said:

Obviously, we all know that the Synchronar and Microflash share many design similarities, but I'm wondering what sort of legal (for lack of a better term?) relationship the 2 companies had with one another. Is one a licensed version of the other? One a ripoff of the other? For some reason I'm under the impression that the MPP is a knockoff of the Heiland but I can't find anything online to substantiate that.

Cheers!

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I think that to explain it by one being lower (or even higher) quality knock offs would be incorrect. The MPP stuff was certainly high quality from the lenses right on down. I do know that the Microcord and its derivatives were certaily a response to the Rolleicord twin lens reflex already available on the continent and that in producing them MPP were trying to compete directly but undercutting as there were none of the post WW2 import levies that were fairly crippling in Europe and Britain until the end of the 50s. I suspect that it might be the case in respect of the flash units of Heiland and MPP that several or all of the pieces were made in the same factories but certainly were in the beginning. As pointed out by Chaim the book by Basil Skinner is a must for researching MPP and has to be treated as the definitive source: Micro Precision Products: The MPP story and the products

I say definitive because MPP, quite famously, kept very few records at all and none seem to survive until this day making the Skinner book pretty much the start and beginning of the search. If I recall correctly the company barely survived into the 80s and seems to have died when those that founded it did so information is scarce. It's been a while since I thumbed the pages of my copy and I don't know where it is right now but luckily I scanned the pages that related to the flash a few years ago for a thread on another forum. The few pages below contain pretty much all the book has to say about the flash. It was originally designed for MOD use with the S92 camera. That is the reason so many units are stamped with either the 1468, 1469, 1470 numbers and the arrow. These markings and numbers are MOD designations that relate to different versions of the flash; accompanying camera, with or without reflector and so on - I forget the exact matches and order but that is what they represent. A flash with these types of numbers and the arrow are MOD or other goverment units. It should also be noted that the stepped shroud is most likely the earlier version and that the no stepped saber version would later incarnations(by which I mean post 1960).

I haven't missed out page 94 by mistake. There's some kind of picture on it IIRC correctly. Chaim will correct me if I am wrong?

Thanks for posting the books pages, very informative stuff.

Good intel. I've had lots of Heilands and a lone MPP and as camera gear goes, the Heiland is head and shoulders above the Brit flash in terms of durability. MPPs are flimsy as hell. Press shooters aren't known for being gentle on their gear, and as the pages above state that the MPP flashes weren't made in large numbers I'll bet they're so rare because most of them got damaged and tossed. Just a guess.

Not sure I (entirely) agree with your assessment of the quality on the MPP versus the Heiland; based on having owned a handful of each over the years I found the quality to be comparable and some components were clearly the same. If I recall correctly the MPP flash was developed specifically for use with the S92 camera which was itself specifically engineered at the request of the Ministry of Defence. The S92 camera was the standard Mk IV (I think) and then beefed up for the intended military use and it stands to reason that the flash would be subject to the same robustness; service personel not being known for their light touch either. I can't see the relative rarity being due to many having been thrown away over the years.

I know that 464 S92 cameras were made for the MOD and because government departments over hear tend to think in fairly unimaginative ways it is reasonable to assume that at leat 464 flash units were also bought for MOD use (plus maybe a few spares) but let's round up and say they ordered 500. Some of the serial number markings on the MOD units would tend to suggest that there were far more than that number but I would attribute that to local inventory taking so if you have a MOD marked flash unit with serial number 869 stamped into it then it is probably more likely that the local quarter master gave it that number as it was 869 in the count rather than the 869th MPP unit sold to the MOD. The unit was certainly then available commercially later on but in what numbers?? Who knows but I'm guessing not many.

Part of the other issue is that these are positively hunted down by collectors of all shapes and sizes and not just Star Wars people. We, as a group, have fairly driven these into the shadows. I actually took up large format photography simply so i could understand the issues and treat with people on a level footing. These guys won't even talk to star wars dweebs let alone sell to us (I can't say I blame them).

I will concede that the later MMP units I have owned (the non MOD ones) whilst not less sturdy certainly seemed less well finished. In my opinion the non stepped shroud accurate to the lightsaber is not as nicely finished as the earlier stepped models or as nice a piece of design. I expect it was a cheaper piece of manufacture. I was also of the opinion that the engraving or stamping of the lettering on the later offerings was not as tidy and the shaped caps of the Heiland units is far less prone to denting than the rounded MPP caps which are a bit naff for my money. One thing I definitely didn't like about the MPP was the manner in which the clamp attaches to the rail of the camera (in my case it was one of those 464 S92s). It was just a bit rubbish and fiddly but as an actual flash I thought it worked just fine.

I think they're rare because they were very limited to begin with. I know of at least one that is forever consigned to saber duties and another that will never achieve anything more than sticking out of the end of a Webley.



Wow! 100 posts. It only took six years.

That is some excellent info, guys, especially intwenothor! So it seems like the 2 flashes may have had the same origin and then diverged, similarly to how the Dunlop Crybaby and Vox Wahwah pedals started as the same pedal and then diverged into 2 separate products (I'm sure there are some guitar nuts here who know what I'm talking about). Post-war economics seemed to have played a roll. To those who have owned both flashes, how interchangeable are the parts? I know that from a Lightsaber standpoint, shrouds and clamps are interchangeable, but has anyone tried transplanting electronics from one to another?

Thanks for the stimulating discussion! This is starting to clear things up for me.

The internal electronics at the top end of the unit that the bulb slots into looked very similar to me (virtually the same). I would think they were made in the same factory. I'd do a compare but I no longer own an Heiland units and the MPP saber is built.

Once I tried to swap a set of spare MPP emitter guts to a Heiland with a different set of internal guts ... well that was a mistake ... those guts were incompatible ... my attempt to make that Heiland emitter look more like an MPP failed :cry

Chaim

I defer to Chaim's knowledge in this area because it's certainly greater than mine although I felt the 3 cell synchronar and the MPP internals looked very similar although I never tried a swap as he did...

He is a proper photographer and I was simply playing so I'd take his advice on the subject.

Chaim, did you notice a noticeable difference in quality or have an opinion on the scarcity of these units? Also, feel free to correct any of the statements I have made in relation to information from the book as I am working from my memory and concede I may be incorrect about some of the things I have stated.

Indeed there is a Heiland that has similar internal guts to an MPP ... so perhaps those could be compatible ... I was merely stating that I tried to make another similar type of Heiland 3 Cell to cosmetically appear as an MPP but the MPP guts would not line up with the other holes in the outer casing of that particular Heiland nor would it close properly after the swap.

As for quality of the MPP's ... I have only one complete flashgun with a none-step shroud ... so it's hard to compare with an earlier type ... though between my Heiland (lighsaber) props and that MPP I did not notice much difference in the quality of the flashgun ... chroming is similar as are other parts ... and no I'm not going to throw my vintage MPP to the curb to find out how sturdy it is ... not with the going crazy rates or value for these much sought after flashguns since they are scarce indeed :wacko

And eventhough I have some vintage flashbulbs in the house whilest collecting flashguns and camera's ... I must admit never having popped one ... just yet ... or without the intention of making a flash photograph at the same time :$

Chaim

intwenothor said:

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Guess our secret is out.

Also, "light sabre" What on earth is a light sabre?

Has anyone compared the two shrouds in metal, durability, wrinkle paint, etc? i'm curious, my heilands always seemed a little more gray than black and with very fine wrinkles but could withstand a lot