Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)

@Solo4114 Yeah, I have been kicking around the idea that Snoke may not be able to use the Force himself. In the Visual Dictionary it says he is very knowledgeable about the Force but no mention of him specifically having Force powers. He wanted Ren to bring Rey to him so he seems to want to surround himself with people strong in the Force and he is motivated to prevent the Jedi from returning.

Also of what we have briefly seen if the Knights of Ren, on Kylo is seen with a lightsaber, I'm not convinced they are a group of dark side users. Also curious in the flashback it appears Kylo kills one of them who was about to kill Rey.
 
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AJTaliesen said:
How did anyone know they were Sith in the prequels?
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The didn't...if you mean IN universe. The jedi were asking each other "what was that?" "I believe it was a Sith Lord". Etc... They weren't positive, and looked for clues to "Unravel the mystery of the Sith".

If you mean OUT of universe, then I suppose most people made that assumption on their own.. like they are now doing with Kylo Ren... even though we have it in print that: "Supreme Leader Snoke believes that Kylo Ren is a perfect balance between Light and Dark force abilities" and that "He is not Jedi, and he is not Sith". It's stated right there, and yet still people want to assume he's one or the other.


AJTaliesen said:
For now, a couple of the movies have everyone assuming that being a bad guy force user and being Sith are the same thing and ending up being completely right about it.
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Completely right about it? This bit lost me... the Visual Dictionary explicitly states he is not a Sith or a Jedi, but a new melding of the two. perhaps a new school of thought? I believe it was stated somewhere that the Story Group built it into this arc that the jedi ultimately lost their connection to the Force because they were to Puritaniustic. Perhaps it is true for dark Side users too... that the extremeism of the Sith led to it's downfall as well, and so going forward, Force users have realized that the truth is in the middle somewhere, and the key to success is to strike the right balance.

That's what I've taken away from it, anyway.
 
annanake said:
I could accept the circular storyline if this is the same 20,000 year old battle between the Jedi and the Sith .
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Well aren't you assuming that the Jedi have been battling the Sith that long? Technically Obi Wan said that the Jedi were the Guardians of Peace in the Galaxy for over a thousand years, not 20,000... so your numbering is a bit off. Also, he didn't say that the Jedi were battling the Sith for even all of that time... he said that the 1,000 years was BEFORE the Dark Times.. before the Empire. For all we know, the Sith may have been vanquished only a hundred years or so before TPM. the council never said how long the conflict had raged, or how much time had passed since they came to believe that the Sith was destroyed.

The thing is we really don't know all that much about the Sith. Most of what you've put forth there is speculation and assumption about them.

And any way this particular discussion is pointless, because we now have printed proof that this is NOT the same Jedi/Sith conflict. So there is no point in arguing that. You could say that you don't agree with the direction that the Story Group took on this particular issue...that is an opinion that you are more than entitled to have, and to express. But to continually argue that Kylo MUST BE a Sith, and Snoke MUST BE Plageius--even though there have been printed confirmations to the opposite brought forth--is just a waste of energy.
 
Guri said:
If the Sith are not the only Dark Force users, then the Jedi are not the only Light Force users.

It could be that the division between Dark and Light has more to do with the school of study, methodology and philosophy and not just bad feelings vs. good feelings.

If that is the case, then by destroying most of the Jedi and then destroying the last of the Sith, Anakind DID fulfill the prophecy by bringing balance to the force instead of it being divided into two sects.

I have long thought that rules of taking kids from their parents at early ages, then no marriage or other 'attachments' was too cult-like. And add to that Qui-gons references to the 'living force' that the Jedi council seemed not to be keen on and there is plenty of room for something above and beyond the Jedi 'good guys' as much as there is plenty of ways to use the dark side without being a Sith.
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I wholeheartedly agree. I have to admit I had not made a connection to Qui Gon's comments about the living Force until now, but that makes good sense.

Personally I agree that the apparent focus is on finding the middle ground between Dark and Light. But then I am also one of those who detests the Polarization of our country (The U.S., for those reading abroad) into two camps. The truth is almost always in the middle, and to divide human beings up into an absolute black-or-white binary system serves only one goal: CONTROL.

Of course there are many on here who do not share this view, and that's fine. I'm only saying that I personally like this tack, and I think it fits well within the framework of both the old and new story.
 
kristenhenry70 said:
Well aren't you assuming that the Jedi have been battling the Sith that long? Technically Obi Wan said that the Jedi were the Guardians of Peace in the Galaxy for over a thousand years, not 20,000... so your numbering is a bit off.
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The quote was "a thousand generations", not "years".
 
Bryancd said:
Maybe this franchise just isn't for you.
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Hang on a tick, Bryan. I think he's really saying the same thing as us here, though possibly with a bit of sarcasm, and maybe even not fully realizing that he's agreed with us.

I think he's right about the fact that the Jedi didn't clearly understand much of anything they spoke about. They were victims of Puritanicalism (I just made that up) and this is what blinded them to the doings of the Sith, among other things.

Master Yoda truly was the wisest, having admitted that they might have misunderstood the Prophecy.

Yoda assumed that Luke would fail if he didn't complete his training, but he ended up being wrong about that. --OR-- he was pulling an Oracle move, and was telling Luke what he needed to hear to set him on the right path. (That bit is pure speculation, and probably not even correct... but it is possible)

My point in this is that I DO think that the Jedi of the past were mistaken about many things, and this seemed to be what Annanake was saying as well...though perhaps with sarcasm, as I've said.
 
Glad to see I'm not the only one who was doubting that both Snoke and Kylo were sith. Regarding Snoke not having any force powers, I could buy that, but he did imply he felt the awakening (could have been BS, but then how did he know about ?), he did seduce Kylo to the dark side, and with his face, I kinda doubt he did it in person, showing up near Luke's academy... And apparently in a cut scene (or was it in the script ?), Rey hears his voice telling him to kill Kylo when she had him laying defeated on the ground. So I'd say at the very least he is force sensitive and can use it to communicate or manipulate people to some degree ? Wait and see as they say...
 
AJTaliesen said:
With Hans death they are explicitly showing the new "bad guy" version to be strait up evil. Sith with a different name.

.
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No... NOT straight up evil. That's what JJ Abrahms has been saying about Kylo since the beginning. He is NOT a traditional bad guy.

If Kylo were straight up evil, he'd have dispatched Han Solo without a thought. But he was shown to be STRUGGLING with it immensely. he knew that Snoke had told him that this is something that he must do if he wants to attain full Dark Side power, but he had said himself that he didn't know if he had the strength to actually do it.

A straight up evil villain would have had no difficulty. Kylo did. He is NOT straight up evil. This whole story is about showing that there are grey areas in between the Dark and the Light. It isn't all just one or the other... we are all a bit of both. That is the subtext, and it is clearly shown in Kylo's actions up to and after he kills his own Father (expecting that this action would strengthen him, and then feeling bewildered by the fact that it actually made him feel weaker).
 
PantheraGem said:
Calm down.
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He DOES have a point.

I confess I cannot see how it makes the OT pointless, either... and not especially ROTJ either.

Something clearly happens after ROTJ. The characters don't cease to exist. they continue to live... and those lives are full of twists, turns and developments...just like our lives. Those paths lead SOMEWHERE. TFA attempts to show us where those paths led to. that doesn't invalidate what came before, it shows you the RESULTS of what came before.
 
I think part of the problem here -- understandably -- is that it's very, very difficult for the hardcore fans to "unlearn what they have learned" with regards to the Star Wars universe from EU materials.

I mean, just on the topic of the Sith alone, the EU had at least three separate "Tales of the Jedi" comic book arcs, the two KOTOR games on PC, the Old Republic MMO, and I have no idea how many novels. Moreover, unlike the stuff that happened after ROTJ, most of it hasn't been obviously discarded (yet). It hasn't been incorporated, either, but it hasn't been obviously overruled at all.

So, much of what I suspect people think they know about any number of things relating to the Sith...they actually don't "know" in this current version of the Star Wars universe. But telling people "Watch this movie and don't think about what you previously read about the Sith" is like telling someone "Sit in that corner and don't think about a polar bear." You're gonna think about the bear, even if you're not supposed to.

That's just one of the built-in difficulties of the new material and the way that the Star Wars franchise used to be run. The EU existed for over 30 years. That's 30 years of people accepting XYZ as a fact, only to suddenly be told that they have to disregard that fact. I still get pissed if someone says Pluto isn't a real planet, ya know? (Side note: yes it is, because SHUT UP, THAT'S WHY.)

Anyway, for better or worse, that's basically what we have to do now: We have to ignore what we've learned about the universe, or at least wait for a lot of it to be confirmed. The rest, you just gotta approach with an open mind or resign yourself to being frustrated (at the least) with where the franchise goes. I know what a drag that is -- feeling like your favorite franchise is telling you to not let the door hit you in the ass on your way out -- but I think there's still a lot to be enjoyed if you can get past this hurdle.
 
Yeah I think what keeps getting lost on those struggling to enjoy this movie is predicated on their own predispositions in regards to how this story works in universe in their minds. Star Wars is an entertainment franchise, it doesn't actually exist as a real galaxy far far away. It's supposed to be fun first and foremost, not chained to anyone's individual dogma.
 
kristenhenry70 said:
A straight up evil villain would have had no difficulty. Kylo did. He is NOT straight up evil. This whole story is about showing that there are grey areas in between the Dark and the Light. It isn't all just one or the other... we are all a bit of both. That is the subtext, and it is clearly shown in Kylo's actions up to and after he kills his own Father (expecting that this action would strengthen him, and then feeling bewildered by the fact that it actually made him feel weaker).
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That and he doesn't torture Rey when he captured her, unlike say, Vader did with Leia. He tries to reason with her at first and then tried using the Force to read her mind but he does not use harsher methods even though he has her strapped to chair(?)/table(?) that seems to be designed for torturing people and, iirc, it was used to torture Poe previously. A straight up evil character would have just tortured Rey after she refused to talk and cooperate with Kylo, instead he opted to try to show that he's not really a bad guy and when that didn't work, he just tried reading her mind. If that's evil then Kylo must obviously subscribe to a kinder, gentler form of evil than I'm used to.
 
Solo4114 said:
I still get pissed if someone says Pluto isn't a real planet, ya know? (Side note: yes it is, because SHUT UP, THAT'S WHY.)

.
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Bwahaha!

I totally agree with you... and do understand that it can be very difficult to let go of what you have accepted to be true.

Sometimes being forced out of your comfort zone is a good thing... though it often doesn't feel like it at the time that it's happening.
 
It seems highly unlikely to me that Snoke isn't a Force user (could've sworn I read somewhere canonical that he is) but it could be interesting if he isn't.
 
Solo4114 said:
I think part of the problem here -- understandably -- is that it's very, very difficult for the hardcore fans to "unlearn what they have learned" with regards to the Star Wars universe from EU materials.

I mean, just on the topic of the Sith alone, the EU had at least three separate "Tales of the Jedi" comic book arcs, the two KOTOR games on PC, the Old Republic MMO, and I have no idea how many novels. Moreover, unlike the stuff that happened after ROTJ, most of it hasn't been obviously discarded (yet). It hasn't been incorporated, either, but it hasn't been obviously overruled at all.

So, much of what I suspect people think they know about any number of things relating to the Sith...they actually don't "know" in this current version of the Star Wars universe. But telling people "Watch this movie and don't think about what you previously read about the Sith" is like telling someone "Sit in that corner and don't think about a polar bear." You're gonna think about the bear, even if you're not supposed to.
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It might be an unintended consequence but I'm kind of relieved the EU is being swept away. With a few exceptions I just couldn't get into the material very much, I found the writing and most of the storylines and plots to be uninteresting and derivative. I know everyone's got there own opinion on the EU but I do think the film has cleaned house a bit :) If TFA is a fan film then I guess the EU was fan fiction.
 
As an aside ... I weary thinking all this speculation will wander it's way through our lives (if we have one) for another eternity before the next movie comes out. Whew! That will be truly dismal.
 
kristenhenry70 said:
For now, a couple of the movies have everyone assuming that being a bad guy force user and being Sith are the same thing and ending up being completely right about it.


Completely right about it? This bit lost me.
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You skipped around. We had just talked about the PT: they saw a bad guy and said "Hey look I bet thats a Sith!" and lo and behold...they were right. It was a Sith. Now, we see the exact same kind of bad guy and say that it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and people here come back with It's not a duck because it calls itself a cat!


No... NOT straight up evil. That's what JJ Abrahms has been saying about Kylo since the beginning. He is NOT a traditional bad guy.

If Kylo were straight up evil, he'd have dispatched Han Solo without a thought. But he was shown to be STRUGGLING with it immensely. he knew that Snoke had told him that this is something that he must do if he wants to attain full Dark Side power, but he had said himself that he didn't know if he had the strength to actually do it.
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At this point I wonder if you're trying to pick apart what I say just because you're still mad at Wook. If so it's ok, I'm not Wook. I loved this movie. Just discussing Star Wars the way nerds do.


But I'll go ahead and clear it up anyway. Yes, Kylo is conflicted. He's trying to get rid of the good, even going so far as to kill his father to rid himself of goodness, leaving strait up evil behind...in his mind: completing his journey to becoming what he wants to become. (arguable whether he succeeds, I think he did not, but very clear what his goal is in doing it).
 
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