Lol you are so worked up over this it’s hilarious
Not sure where you're able to interpret my emotional state, but hey, whatever tickles your pickle, I guess.
1. If Lebron James makes a shot that other experienced basketball players say is “impossible” he was using the force to an incredible, masterful degree? Lol
No, because in the real world, the Force doesn't exist. Your example isn't comparable. A better example in-universe would be Threepio's comment to Han about the odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field, and Han doing it anyway, and then pointing out that that's not the Force. Except that example wouldn't really work, either, because the movie intentionally lampshades that Luke is able to make the shot because he uses the Force, and strongly implies that he has always had this ability.
2. Luke ends up using the Force to block Han's remote's shots with the lightsabre” - Yea that’s what the whole exercise is for, try to block the shots. There were shots he didn’t block too. After a conversation or a bit of instruction I could play a chord on a piano, does that mean I’m ready to play Carnegie Hall? Does that mean Luke is a Jedi master ready to take on the world?
Blocking a blaster shot with a lightsabre is the equivalent to playing a chord on a piano? Really? The implication from the film is that Luke is able to do this because he's exceptionally strong in the Force, and he picks up the concept very quickly. You're trying to argue that Luke is somehow not as "overpowered" as Rey is because he has to work to gain his abilities. I'm saying that Luke had exceptionally strong raw ability just like Rey did, and that he picked up techniques to use that raw ability quickly just like Rey did. And he did it without much tutoring, because he's exceptionally strong in the Force, just like Rey is. Therefore, Luke and Rey are comparable in their power levels, and arguments that Rey is "too" powerful aren't really supported by what's on screen in the films. It's just a gut feeling that people have, based on a double-standard.
3. Ok, so the time difference between ANH and ESB is a few years, so you don’t think it’s plausible that in a few YEARS time of practicing that Luke may have been able to struggle enough to pull his lightsaber to him? Again, how is that at ALL similar to Rey again? It took Luke years to be able to do that but she does it by the end of TFA! LOL
That's purely speculation on your part. Where's it supported in the films? Is it even addressed in the novelizations of the films? Within the films, within what we actually see, Luke is able to do a ton of stuff just...on his own. He isn't trained by anyone else. He's not given a manual of exercises to do. He doesn't have a Jedi holocron or whathaveyou to teach him. He just...does stuff. Same as Rey. If you want to claim that Rey gets her abilities too quickly, fine and dandy, but that also applies to Luke and Anakin just as much. And, for what it's worth, the novelization of TLJ apparently explains that when Ben mind-probes Rey, she manages to absorb his knowledge of Force techniques, which is why -- immediately after that point in the film, she's suddenly really good at using the Force. I tend not to put a lot of stock in novelizations (even though they're officially canon), but the info is out there.
You also talk about how strong Luke is already before he goes to see Yoda, but he still is almost killed by Vader, this after YEARS of practicing on his own and getting instruction from Yoda for an undetermined amount of time. Once again, NOTHING like Rey beating Kylo all on her own after what, a day or two? Lol
Again, you're assuming that Luke had years of practicing on his own. How do you know that Rey hasn't been doing the exact same thing all on her own during her years on Jakku? Both are equally valid assumptions, which is to say that neither are supported by anything we see in the films, and both are pure guesswork on either of our parts.
4. Oh you are really pulling at straws.. Anakin is a pilot BEFORE we meet him. Did he have some intuition because of the force? Yea I’m sure. Even you said the word yourself, UNCONSCIOUS. Was he flying races against other Force users that WERE trained and much more experienced AND STILL beating them? No? Another false equivalency.
It's in the movie itself. Qui-Gon says Anakin is immensely powerful. People say Anakin is the only human able to do the podraces at all, let alone win them. The implication here is -- or at least should be -- pretty obvious: he's able to do all this stuff because he can use the Force and because he's exceptionally powerful in using it.
Until you show me ANY character in the movies that over the course of DAYS goes from a non-force user, to having a hissy fit because a lightsaber gave her a scary dream, to doing Jedi mind tricks when she should and could not have any idea they were a thing or could be done, to beating a trained force user, to killing elite guards, to moving mountains of boulders with the force all with only a bit of a pep talk, the story of Rey will be the story of a Mary Sue. All the manufactured lines of dialogue that Rey says in order to “justify” her Mary Sue status doesn’t disprove her being exactly that.
Want to celebrate in the joy of all-powerful women? Go ahead, burn your bra and however else you want to celebrate. All your whining about fictitious double standards does little to convince me, or the scores of other fans out there that see it for what it is-KK’s agenda front and center.
Look, I'm not really interested in engaging with you on the whole issue of the "SJW agenda" and whatnot. I don't know whether you really, truly believe this sort of thing, or whether you're just kind of unsatisfied in a general sense about the films and this is the argument you've absorbed to try and provide what you think is a legitimate framework for your dissatisfaction. All I'm gonna say about that is you ain't doing yourself any favors when you trot that stuff out, and there's a reason why folks end up being dismissive of those views. You can claim that that's "insulting the fans," but I'd say the fans are being pretty insulting all on their own when they start making the "SJW agenda" argument, and are basically just getting back what they're giving.
At the end of the day, there's one standard at play here, and it's equally applicable to Luke and Rey and Anakin. They're all "overpowered." That's the point. They're supposed to be. They're all exceptional characters who are capable of doing things with the Force even without training, because they're exceptional. If Rey is a Mary Sue, then so are Anakin and Luke. Or, perhaps, they're just exceptional characters who are extremely skilled in the Force.
So giving the second movie in a trilogy to a writer/director and telling him there's a blank slate, who's fault was that?
I don't really see that as a fault. I mean, that was up to JJ and Kathleen Kennedy. They're the ones who chose to give Rian free reign. I like what he came up with. I like it a lot better than what JJ came up with, actually.
JJ did have ideas, we know he had a draft/treatment for VIII that wasn't used by Rian. We know he had an idea for Rey's parents, that LFL gave Rian veto power over by allowing him to do whatever he wanted. We know that JJ had a completely different vision for Luke's character in VIII. And we know that Rian asked JJ for changes in VII that JJ disagreed with and refused to do. I don't think it's fair to blame JJ for delivering a movie that had people talking and speculating for two years, and gave TLJ a hype lead-in that anyone would envy. Rian is the one who failed to bridge the gap between two consecutive movies in the same trilogy, which should have been the easier task.
That was kind of my point, though. Yes, JJ created a film that had people speculating. But it was speculation based on him engaging in this meta-narrative technique of withholding information that everyone within the story's framework already knows. The characters all know more than the audience. They know the answers to the "mysteries" that JJ introduced. The only reason they're "mysteries" at all is that JJ didn't have the characters engage with this information or provide it to the audience, and he did that specifically to build anticipation and excitement over trying to figure out the answers, rather than about the actual story or what the characters were doing. This is no different from a horror movie having a character slowly wander in a space, building up tense music to a crescendo, and then having a cat jump out from behind a trashcan to scare the character. It's using a particular technique to simulate a response in the audience, rather than doing the real thing. In the horror movie, you're simulating fear by using basic techniques to trigger the audience's fight-or-flight response...but nobody's actually afraid. In JJ's "mystery box" approach, you're simulating the audience's interest in the story by withholding information from them and having them become interested in the withheld information itself...but they aren't really all that interested in the actual story. The withheld information isn't really story, unless it's part of the characters' journey. The revelation of Rey's parents is only meaningful if Rey doesn't already know it herself. But JJ doesn't do any of the work to establish that Rey doesn't know who her parents are. Not once in TFA is there any indication that Rey (A) either has no idea who they even are, or (B) thinks the wrong thing about them (e.g. thinks that the people who left her on Jakku are mom and dad, but in fact it's someone else or she's a clone or whatever). JJ never shows what Rey knows or doesn't know. So, the audience's experience of finding this out is all about the audience's interaction with the information, rather than Rey.
It's not until TLJ that we start to find out what Rey thinks about her parents. She thinks (apparently) that they were junk traders who traded her away for drinking money, and are lying dead in a ditch somewhere on Jakku. And that belief is really important to Rey and her journey, specifically because (as the movie implies) she wants to find out they're something else to prove that she's more than just a nobody. She's looking to something external to give herself meaning in the galaxy...and what matters is that ultimately she creates that meaning for herself through her choices and actions. She defines herself, rather than being defined by something external (e.g., her parentage).
And here's what I think is the really cool part:
even that could all still be wrong. There's actually nothing stopping JJ from doing a big reveal down the road that Rey's parents are something other than what Kylo Ren described them to be, and what she believes them to be. And while I would prefer that they actually are nobodies, I do think that Rey's journey and her self-creation will survive even if she draws additional strength from the knowledge of who her parents are. It won't (I hope) diminish the importance of her deciding on her own "I don't care who my parents were. I'm someone, and I'm choosing to take this path because it's the right path." So, even if Rey turns out to be a Kenobiwalker or whatever, the reveal will (again) be more for the audience and not for Rey. Rey's journey in relation to the identity of her parents is already basically done. A reveal of fabulously powerful heritage won't change that, although it'll change one of what I think is the underlying messages in TLJ: that anyone can be a hero, and that what matters is not where you come from, but who you choose to be. In other words, birth isn't destiny, and even a lowly stable hand can rise to be a hero without requiring the additional benefit of secretly being a prince or whathaveyou.
Luke's training was brief but at least he had training. Plus because there is a few years gap between ANH and ESB and Luke presumably sees Ben's ghost for the first time in the beginning of Empire, we can infer that any progress Luke has made in that time has been largely self taught. He BARELY is able to Force grab his saber in time in the Wampa cave.
Ok, here's the thing about the speculation on Luke's "home schooling" in the Force without a tutor. Even if that's the case....it still only supports the notion that Luke is incredibly powerful. To be able to teach yourself to use the Force, when there used to be entire academies dedicated to this task, suggests that Luke is a natural talent. That's fundamentally no different from, say, Anakin using the Force to fly podracers, or Rey using the Force to defeat Kylo Ren in a duel (after he'd been shot by a bowcaster that we've already seen can blow people, like, 40 feet backwards).
The whole battle with Vader in Empire was one sided. Vader could have killed him at any point but his motive was to convert him, not kill him. Plus Luke's lineage (aka Anakin Skywalker) would give a quick and reasonable explanation as to how Luke could hone his abilities. By the time of Return of the Jedi, Luke has made progress and has become as good of a Jedi Knight as he could ever be, though we can assume that he would never be as powerful as the Jedi of old because his teachings were so short lived.
Rey had no lineage to any Force user that we know of and apparently the Force created her. It's the same crappy idea recycled from Anakin in TPM and it's as stupid now as it was then. Plus she has no instruction of any kind. None whatsoever. Plus she never fails at her attempts to tap into the Force and isn't tempted to give in to the dark side.
Ok, so, hang on a second. Are you arguing that Anakin is a Mary Sue as well? And that, of the three of them, only Luke is the one who makes sense because the Force ought to be purely hereditary?
Also, as I mentioned above, we could still end up finding out that Rey has some fantastic lineage. I'd prefer that we didn't, but it could still happen. Jury's still out there.
Here are some key moments in Luke's journey that expose his flaws, show vulnerability, or instances where he must make a choice that will make him deal with his internal conflicts.
>snipped for space<
Those are just some examples of how Luke progresses as a character. We see his flaws, we see that he is vulnerable and we can relate to him. His ideas are challenged and by Return of the Jedi he is even tempted by the dark side which further escalates his struggle. The whole trilogy builds up to that one moment where he defies the Emperor by refusing to kill Vader. It's triumphant and such an emotionally satisfying peak for his character.
Look at all that we KNOW about Luke as a character, just by watching those three movies. By listing his flaws/ weaknesses and showing his conflicts we as the audience are invested in him because we see ourselves reflected in him. He BECOMES a Jedi by the end of the trilogy because the conflicts (both internal and external) have shaped him. The irony of seeing his weakness is that it actually makes him a stronger character because we witness the change.
I agree with all of this. These are good examples of Luke's journey as a character.
What have we learned about Rey thus far?
-She is a scavenger who trades junk for food.
-She lives alone on the wastes of Jakku waiting for the family that abandoned her to return.
--She is mechanically inclined so would have some idea how to fix things
-She is tough enough to defend herself because she does live alone on a harsh desert planet
-She can speak multiple languages because she interacts with lots of species of aliens on her world and at the junkyard
-She does the right thing by not selling BB-8 and generally looking out for him so she does have at least a conscience that she listens to
-Kylo Ren is able to paralyze her and knock her unconscious and just when we see that he is stronger than her in that moment, it is undone when she resists his mind probe later on, is able to tap into his mind and scare him by exposing his weakness. From there on out she is no longer vulnerable.
I think we've learned more than just that.
She did refuse the call-to-adventure like Luke, because she wanted to get back to Jakku, and I think this illustrates her biggest flaws.
I see Rey as having two problems. First, she's all bound up in waiting for her folks to come back, but that ties into the second larger problem, in that she's basically afraid for most of the films of taking responsibility, even though her instinct is to do so. That touches on her refusal to take the sabre, her refusal to embrace her power, and her attempt to literally hand off her responsibility to Luke at the end of TFA/start of TLJ. Rey looks outward to everyone else to "solve it." She's waiting on Jakku for her parents to come save her, thereby refusing to save herself. She wants to go back to Jakku for that reason, after seeing BB-8 off safely. She's unwilling to take up the mantle of the Jedi and turns down the sabre, then when she takes it, she only does so out of her transferred attachment to Han and desire for revenge, rather than for any larger good. Then she tries to get Luke to come back and save the galaxy. Up until her lessons from Luke and her cave vision, and her realization that Luke lied to her and refuses to save the galaxy, she repeatedly turns her back. It's only after the cave -- after she confronts her fears and overcomes them, and in so doing chooses to create her own path -- that she says "Well, screw it, then. I'll have to do it myself."
In many respects, I think this is more abstract and less obvious. It's much more of an internal conflict, and it drags on a lot longer than Luke's (although Luke had other flaws). And to be fair, we haven't seen if Rey's character traits remain flaws for her the way they did for Luke. There's still a third (or more?) movie(s) dealing with her in which that will be revealed.
Anyway, all that aside, I do want to say that I continue to enjoy discussing this stuff with you, Psab Keel. I may not agree with your assessments, but I appreciate your perspective.
