Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
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laszlo
Sr Member
Oh God, it's so depressing that Johnson is lauded as having breathed new life in to it.
I'm so confused how people think he even understands good story telling/ film making. His work is surface, juvenile cliche faux deep. Oh God
Breathed new life into it? More like snuffed out what little breath was left. I've posted a list of the major characters he killed off in this and another thread. It makes sense that they need to move on to new things but to say that Rian Johnson is brave or visionary is laughable.
After watching TFA I was hopeful that this new trilogy could be really good. It had a lot if potential, though a huge part of why I was on board with TFA was how 8 and 9 were handled and TLJ has tainted my enjoyment the of TFA to the point where I don't know if I really care about it anymore.
After watching TFA I was hopeful that this new trilogy could be really good. It had a lot if potential, though a huge part of why I was on board with TFA was how 8 and 9 were handled and TLJ has tainted my enjoyment the of TFA to the point where I don't know if I really care about it anymore.
Solo4114
Master Member
Hang on a second. I think there's a difference between something that's "derivative" and something that's "iterative."
I see a "derivative" film as one that recycles elements from previous film(s). And that's it, really. Derivative doesn't necessarily mean "bad" either. Lucas' original Star Wars was highly derivative of several different films and film genres, forming a pastiche of references to other movies, while also doing something really interesting and fun with them.
That's different from an "iterative" film, which basically re-tells the same story that was told previously with only minor tweaks. Even an iterative story can still be interesting, although it does grow stale after a while.
I'm not sure how familiar you are with it, but the Gundam franchise has been surviving for decades on iterative tales. They've tweaked things here and there, they've updated some stuff, but a whole lot of the stories that have been told within that franchise have been basically a recycling of (1) the original 0079 Gundam, (2) Z Gundam, and to a lesser extent (3) Gundam Wing. The newer versions are still interesting for the new design aspects, the new animation styles, and the new characters, but it's reeeeeaaaallly easy to spot the analogues for this or that character, and not just because so and so is the designated newtype (think psychic pilot, basically), or the designated Char clone (think Vader stand-in).
I see TLJ as derivative in that it's playing within the same universe and touching on many of the same themes, but it's also pretty out there in terms of how it upends convention and expectations that have set in for 30 years. There are surface details that are the same as what we've seen before, but Johnson's film does not (A) flow easily into an ROTJ-like resolution, nor (B) handle its characters the same way as before with the OT or PT. Sure, Ben/Kylo is a surface-level analogue for Anakin/Vader, but I see his motivations as being completely different and in many ways more interesting than the Anakin we see in the PT. (Vader's less of a character in the OT and more of just a threatening monster, until you get to the end of ESB and learn more of his motivations -- which don't really match up with PT-Anakin, either.)
I kinda feel like the main point of TLJ is the Rey/Ben relationship and their respective relationships with the Force and what that all means. That and introducing some of the new themes that open up the possibility of who can be a hero in this universe which, while new in some respects, seem to me to fit the setting quite nicely.
I found this article interesting:
https://leofgyth.tumblr.com/post/172497124763/reys-lightsaber-practice-and-the-showdown-on
Basically when Luke sees Rey practicing, he recognizes Kylo's saber style. And the saber practice itself foreshadows the fight at the end, all the way up to Rey/Kylo cutting the rock/Luke. While I can admit this is kind of a cool detail, it also supports the idea that Rey got all her powers and skills from going into Kylo's head. I don't think that's a very compelling replacement for the idea of Jedi training established by the rest of the canon.
https://leofgyth.tumblr.com/post/172497124763/reys-lightsaber-practice-and-the-showdown-on
Basically when Luke sees Rey practicing, he recognizes Kylo's saber style. And the saber practice itself foreshadows the fight at the end, all the way up to Rey/Kylo cutting the rock/Luke. While I can admit this is kind of a cool detail, it also supports the idea that Rey got all her powers and skills from going into Kylo's head. I don't think that's a very compelling replacement for the idea of Jedi training established by the rest of the canon.
seelsa73
Sr Member
Much more interesting to me is the post below that. Kylo redeemed. [emoji108]
Scrap them all and lets see Kyle Katarn go on some adventure....
I am disappointed in TLJ. But I am also disappointed at some of the anti-TLJ/anti-RJ comments. The argument that "grinds my gears" the most regarding TLJ is that the movie is derivative. I should clarify that I'm not responding to any particular person, because I've heard and read it in numerous posts on this forum, youtube videos. and podcasts. Yes I absorb a lot of Star Wars content. I find the "derivative" complaint weak because it is a thinly veiled way of saying that "I don't like what TLJ is". Are some parts familiar? Yes. Would you call John Williams music derivative because he "just recycles musical passages" from music we've already heard? No that is a silly argument. I feel the same is true of the derivative arguments towards TLJ. Let's be honest, many of the things that the fans "wanted TLJ to be" are also derivative. A heroic Luke, green light saber battles, group hugs with the OT crew. Yeah, we've all seen that before. Granted, I would have liked to see it again like many fans. But what is new about that? Isn't that derivative?
I saw TLJ once in the theater. I haven't purchased any BluRays or DVDs. I probably won't until enough time has passed that I feel like seeing it again. I've listened to some of RJ's interviews in which he explains some of the story decisions he made. His explanations seem sound. It's not what I wanted. But its what we've got. I will wait and see what comes next.
I saw TLJ once in the theater. I haven't purchased any BluRays or DVDs. I probably won't until enough time has passed that I feel like seeing it again. I've listened to some of RJ's interviews in which he explains some of the story decisions he made. His explanations seem sound. It's not what I wanted. But its what we've got. I will wait and see what comes next.
Why? It shouldn’t be surprising JJ considered that early in the process but decided to leave it open ended. He clearly didn’t feel it was important for the character of Rey or he would have sealed her lineage up. I don’t think he cares one bit Rian went the direction he did.
One thing they could do with Luke and would be interesting since they are using ideas from the original films that never got past being an idea in the notes...
Bring Luke back like they planned to do with Kenobi in ROJ,you might say no but think about this-what if Luke comes back to save Kylo? Rey's got her own thing but I think Luke owns Han and his sister to try and save their kid,it'd be a legit reason for him to do it.
And he DID say "See ya round kid"
Bring Luke back like they planned to do with Kenobi in ROJ,you might say no but think about this-what if Luke comes back to save Kylo? Rey's got her own thing but I think Luke owns Han and his sister to try and save their kid,it'd be a legit reason for him to do it.
And he DID say "See ya round kid"
kalkamel
Master Member
Because of what could have been. Like many others, the mystery of Rey's parentage was something I'd hoped would be answered in TLJ. And like those others, I'd hoped that she'd be given "relevant lineage", be it a Kenobi, a Palpatine whatever... just something to help explain her strong connection to the Force and what could have made her adapt to it so fast. Because of that, the "you're nobody" reveal was pretty devastating. And to find out that the guy who helped create her character had actually intended her to have said "relevant lineage" but got scrapped (along with the treatment he did for 8 and 9) infuriates me. Whether or not he minded what Rian did is beside the point. For me, at least.
Solo4114
Master Member
Why was "You're nobody" devastating? Like, what about it bothers you? I'm genuinely curious here. I have my own thoughts on the subject, but I'd like to hear the defense of why Rey Kenobi/Rey Skywalker/Rey Palpatine/Rey Syfo-Dias (or whatever) is so much better than what actually happened?
sbaxter
Sr Member
I hope I'm not repeating something others have said 47 times in this thread, but Luke had access to the Force ghosts of Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin for at least some amount of time post-RotJ -- between the three of them, he could have learned a highly-detailed account of Sidious' rise to power.
SSB
Keycube
Well-Known Member
I finally watched the trailer for TLJ (I went in to the movie cold, and swore I would never indulge in this disaster again in any capacity...and yet, I caved).
I'm even more angry. Everyone was sold a bill of goods containing depth and respect for tradition & tone, and got a shameless bait & switch. The fact that the lightsaber delivery scene cuts just short of the toss, just shows you that the only thing going for this debacle was a theme of "OMG TOTALLY DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING LOL", that only sorts that pride themselves on being a part of the faux-cleverness and irreverence scene could, ahem, "appreciate".
Man...I was over it, I really was. Now I'm twice as pissed as I ever was.
I'm even more angry. Everyone was sold a bill of goods containing depth and respect for tradition & tone, and got a shameless bait & switch. The fact that the lightsaber delivery scene cuts just short of the toss, just shows you that the only thing going for this debacle was a theme of "OMG TOTALLY DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING LOL", that only sorts that pride themselves on being a part of the faux-cleverness and irreverence scene could, ahem, "appreciate".
Man...I was over it, I really was. Now I'm twice as pissed as I ever was.
Not learning anything new about Rey other than "she is nobody" is disappointing because we know so little about her in the first place that to be insultingly told no, if only to satisfy the interests of the director and not the fans, then why should we bother caring anymore? It's self serving and not in service to the story. We need SOMETHING to go on otherwise we will have little to invest into it.
If the story is going to advance (Story as is character development and not plot) then we need more to go on other than she is a scavenger who can use the Force with no problems whatsoever and no temptation to use it for evil. Without conflict there is no story. That's fiction 101.
2/3rds of the way through a trilogy we should know far more about the characters than we currently know now if they intend to wrap this whole thing up and if they are going to call it a trilogy it needs to be wrapped up. Otherwise it's a series and we've been lied to from the beginning by being told that it this trilogy would be a contained story.
If the story is going to advance (Story as is character development and not plot) then we need more to go on other than she is a scavenger who can use the Force with no problems whatsoever and no temptation to use it for evil. Without conflict there is no story. That's fiction 101.
2/3rds of the way through a trilogy we should know far more about the characters than we currently know now if they intend to wrap this whole thing up and if they are going to call it a trilogy it needs to be wrapped up. Otherwise it's a series and we've been lied to from the beginning by being told that it this trilogy would be a contained story.
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