Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
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I don’t consider those binary points of discussion. It’s art, it’s subjective and worthy of all manner of discussion, including personal experience and financial results. It’s all worth considering.
gedmac66
Sr Member
JoeG ,
I’m not sure what trolling is ( just started to get familiar with this particular site and the internet ) , but if people ( myself included ) have issues , or are disillusioned by by what , where and how their memories of film/s and characters are being ‘ handled ‘ Why is it considered wrong ?
I’m not sure what trolling is ( just started to get familiar with this particular site and the internet ) , but if people ( myself included ) have issues , or are disillusioned by by what , where and how their memories of film/s and characters are being ‘ handled ‘ Why is it considered wrong ?
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gedmac66
Sr Member
I don’t consider those binary points of discussion. It’s art, it’s subjective and worthy of all manner of discussion, including personal experience and financial results. It’s all worth considering.
Thankyou .
I agree . It’s all worth considering . :cheers
DarthLee
Sr Member
I was fixing busted pipes myself....I feel ya..:cry
I know that some of my post here can seem to be "toxic". But they are really not ment to be. As many problems as I seem to have with TLJ....The ST will go on my shelf and be part of a "Star Wars Sunday"
And I think that the fans that swore off SW after TLJ, are not here talking about it, or commenting about how good or bad the film was.
It's all good, my friend, & I really hope you're right.
Each of these trilogies fill a total, yet separate part of my life. The OT takes me back to Christmas mornings & planning action figure battles with friends on the playground. The PT takes me to making props & costumes for my kids & keeping them out of school for midnight showings.
I'm really not sure where this trilogy will hit me, but my son & his wife are expecting our first grandson next month, so I'm sure he's going to play a big part of where these films lie in the landscape of my life.
gedmac66
Sr Member
Yeah see ... that’s how it was / is for people from way back when ! ... It doesn’t , nor shouldn’t mean that stories have to evolve to the exclusion , of what those moments meant to those then , first time audience members . The thing is - passing the ‘ torch ‘ is expected and necessary to continue the ‘ franchise ‘ .... but why at the the poorly executed IMO treatment of those original characters .
Seem’s to me that they could have been left out entirely ( possibly mentioned in the films ‘ crawl ‘ ) . But , you know , there was a target audience ( and their money ) waiting to be pandered to ! .
As you said - “ let their imaginations fill in anything ... how it’s supposed to be “ etc .... It’s a ‘ Whatever ‘ ! Right !?
Your priceless, actually thats not really true is it. And dont use my favourite Judge against me.
*you're?
Since this thread went from bashing a SW that makes Attack of the Clones seem pretty good in comparison to feminazis and writing ability
:facepalm
As for money, great films make a lot of money, but crap films also make a lot of money - in both cases: sometimes, but not always.
The film made some money. Some people liked it, some people didn't. The End.... until the next one.
Don't feel bad, I've seen the OT trilogy so many times that its hard for me to sit through now. ANH and ESB feel boring and slow moving to me now, but I still can enjoy those. ROTJ, after the Jabba sequence, I fast forward and watch only the space battles and throne room scenes. I guess I am a heretic or just burned out. :lol
Zuiun
Sr Member
"They" or "us"?
The thing is, with the original films, we got very little material outside of the films, and there were definitely no places like this where fans could speculate ad infinitum what this, that, or the other might mean.
Then the prequels came along and decided to give us a backstory on practically everything -- including details no one even cared to ask about (such as why some Stormtrooper bumped his head walking through the door). And Internet forums sprang up allowing endless discussion and speculation.
I would say that The Force Awakens didn't, itself, make any bigger deal about, say, who Snoke was than the original trilogy did about the Emperor. But we fans sure did. And maybe that was just plain shortsightedness on the part of JJ Abrams for not realizing that there is no such thing anymore as throwaway details in these movies. The fandom is going to obsess about everything.
I mean, what dominated the conversation for the past 2 years? Was it where the story was going to go for Rey, Finn, Poe and the rest of the Resistance? Not even a little. Wondering if Kylo Ren was going to be redeemed? Maybe some. No, the dominating conversations have been Snoke's backstory and Rey's parents (oh, and how much of a badass Luke was going to be in the next film) -- two details that really shouldn't matter (and forgetting that this isn't Luke's story), but Abrams made the mistake of underestimating just how much fans would obsess over these things, so much so that the main story he was trying to tell has been sidelined while we speculate over other details.
I know that a lot of fans feel like Rian Johnson took a giant crap on their expectations by literally telling us that Snoke and Rey's parents don't matter, but I can at least respect that he was doing it to try to bring the trilogy back on the rails of focusing on our main characters.
Zuiun
Sr Member
Don't forget the toys. While not an exhaustive source of supplemental information, the toys gave names to a lot of characters that never had them in the films.
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Solo4114
Master Member
That's a good point. As was whoever referenced the Brian Daley books. I also forgot about the Lando Calrissian trilogy, but I never read that and heard it's seriously weird. I like Daley's trilogy, though.
cayman shen
Master Member
The Lando books are WEIRD. I agree the old Han books are great though.
Snikt
Sr Member
Names of things are one thing, but entire characters or things that affect the plot of the movie are important. Yeah you and I know what a dianoga is, but what the creature is called isnt important. Having the strongest user in SW movie history (spanning 7 movies) not having a backstory when things are established isnt an example of being "spoon fed". For the people that knock JJ for his "mystery box" approach, at least he comes up with ideas that COULD potentially be explored. Rian not only snubbed everything out, but didnt bring anything to advance the story. Rebels are on the run and the FO is chasing them. Reys parents arent anyone. Kylo is the Supreme Leader now, who, apparently has the same force abilities as Rey. I just dont see how they are going to make 9 compelling, and tie up loose ends.
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
I think it's probably just a nod to ESB because they like those fan-service callbacks.
Leia "I love you."
Han "I know."
She did not have anywhere near enough time to get a rep and have it grow throughout the rebellion.
I guess this is one of the main reasons I'm sad at this point. I can't just look forward to the next one. They took Han's character backwards (had a disappointing kid so he quit the Republic/Resistance, left Leia, returned to being a smuggler, etc.), then killed him off after a couple days of returning to the cause.
Now they've turned Luke into a failed Jedi Master (contemplates killing his nephew, has cut himself off from the Force, massages sea giraffe teats for nourishment, just wants to die, has to be spared by Rey from her wrath) and then KILLED him off after a super-brief (literally like 5 minutes) period of heroics.
I think these characters were handled badly. Had they both lived, I could just say "The End.... until the next one" and hope the next guy tells a better story that allows the characters to face challenges that didn't involve destroying their characters before doing so. But they committed this character assassination, and then killed off the characters.
I'm left not caring at all where the story goes from here.
Zuiun
Sr Member
I completely disagree that he didn't bring anything to advance the story.
The first movie was called "The Force Awakens." But all we really got was Rey figuring out she could use the Force. The Last Jedi literally demonstrates that Force abilities are manifesting elsewhere, too. What are the implications of this? How will these abilities sway the balance?
In The Force Awakens, the First Order was apparently functioning under a similar premise as the Empire. They had their figurehead leader in Snoke. But now Kylo Ren has declared himself to be in charge. Will this hold? How many within the First Order will take him seriously? What will he do with the First Order, considering running it really didn't seem to be his agenda -- he was just after the "respect" Vader had.
Every time we've seen Rebels or Resistance, they've already been a force to be reckoned with. Ending The Last Jedi, we have a Resistance that literally fits on one ship. How will they rebuild and recruit when, apparently, the rest of the galaxy had given up on them? Who will lead the new Resistance? And given that the First Order essentially wiped out the new Republic in TFA, what is even the plan for a new government if/when the First Order is eliminated?
What is the future of the Jedi now that Rey has the texts and new Force users are popping up around the Galaxy? What are the implication for the "Knights of Ren?" Going back to Kylo, does he put his efforts into running the First Order? Or does he turn control to Hux and focus on finding these Force users before Rey can get to them? Has Rey given up on trying to redeem Kylo, or will she now just try to destroy him?
I feel like there are quite a few options for where this story could go that I would find compelling.
DarthLee
Sr Member
Not to go off subject but....
I dont know if I want IX to start the minute after VIII, or a year after VIII.
Some can argue, with the lack of info, it needs to start the minute after. Other can say, enough info.. lets move forward so Rey can do amazing stunts and it would be justified.
I dont know if I want IX to start the minute after VIII, or a year after VIII.
Some can argue, with the lack of info, it needs to start the minute after. Other can say, enough info.. lets move forward so Rey can do amazing stunts and it would be justified.
Mr Webber
Master Member
I`m not really sure what your points were about my post? As in any of them. Feminazis?
Bryan and I had an interesting little discussion that ended on a positive moment by both of us. As you come into the conversation 108 pages in, maybe you should do a little more research.
Yes, there is a some hypocrisy on my behalf for posting an article that deals with financial matters when I post they dont matter in the forum but I think its just shows how much some people, have tunnel vision to post about that straight off the bat rather than the actual content of the post, which was totally ignored altogether by those same people.
Oh, all that based on a spelling error...now I get it, thanks for the english lesson
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Solo4114
Master Member
I think Ep. VIII left open a lot of new options for ground to cover. Rey's parents aren't anyone, and I don't think they ever were. I think JJ just liked effing with people about this, which is why he made it "mysterious." It wasn't a mystery. She flippin' tells everyone who she is in the first movie! "Who are you?" "I'm nobody." Boom. Done. Right there. She IS nobody. And that's what matters. She's not some destined Chosen One. She's not the heir to the Skywalker or Kenobi bloodlines in any literal sense. She's not the divine reincarnation of Anakin. She's nobody. That makes her heroism meaningful. That makes it important. Rey's nobody, and could've never heeded the call in the first place, or could've turned evil, feeling she doesn't owe the universe or anyone anything. She was abandoned by her junk trader parents for booze money, left to fend for herself, clearly unloved, unwanted, destitute, and hopeless. Rey has EVERY REASON to be deeply, deeply evil, fueled by anger and hatred towards the entire galaxy that stomped on her all her life, and now she's stomping back.
And instead, she's fundamentally good at her core. She shelters BB-8. She fights to get him back to the Resistance. She does what she can to try to stop the First Order. She takes on an evil Force user and holds her own, instead of giving in to his suggestion that he train her. She then forgives him and tries to find the good in him. Again, she could just say "You're a monster", strike him down, and be done with it. And her entire backstory makes that completely believable. She could've taken up his offer to rule the galaxy beside him, burning down all vestiges of the past, regardless of the cost, and imposing her will on the universe...and again, she turns to the good, rejecting his offer, and opposing him. Not threatening to destroy him, but opposing him; stopping him where and how she can, and helping the Resistance to survive.
She's completely unburdened by prophecy, destiny, or history. She's entirely self-made and self-determined. I think that's hugely important to her character, and pretty much any pat answer about her family would've undercut that, given how TFA was set up. I love that her parents are nobody and that she's nobody, because it means that within this fictional galaxy, anybody can become a hero.
As for the rest, again, it's a middle chapter. Middle chapters are for moving action forward -- which this did -- and for developing characters -- which this did. ESB did the same thing. The Rebels were still on the run, the Empire still existed, blah blah blah.
I actually don't see a ton of "loose ends" in the traditional sense of the term. Certainly not of the kind that we had between TFA and TLJ. Instead, we have "loose ends" in the sense of "Where do we go from here?" rather than "BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE UNANSWERED QUESTIONS THAT WERE RAISED?!" This film answered most of the "questions" that mattered to the current story. What it left open are possibilities for the future direction of characters and plot.
Here's the thing.
As soon as TFA was announced as having the old actors in it, you should have realized that "happily ever after" wasn't in the cards for any of 'em. If you read your kid a fairytale bedtime story that ends with "happily ever after," and your kid says "And then what happened, Daddy?" what do you tell them? Because the truth, ultimately, is "they got old and died." Not very happy.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I knew that at least one of them was gonna die as soon as the casting was announced. At that point, once I knew that the new films would pick up 30-ish years after the old ones, I knew it was time to make peace with the notion that our heroes would be broken in one sense or another.
I'd prefer it to be maybe a year after, instead of "two days later..."
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