Which Graflex is in Which Movie?

SethS

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
After confusing myself about what I was seeing, and consulting the super-detailed research done by @scottjua here: https://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=144206
...I decided to compare some apples to apples and ask what you all see.

There's three key details to determining which model of Graflex you're looking at-- the bottom stamp, the type of socket pins, and the style of glass eyes/buttons. While each movie likely uses multiple Graflexes, and the buttons and eyes are swappable, I want to try and pin down as best as possible what is being used where.

First-- Scott's helpful research:

pins.png
buttons.png
buttons2.png
eyes.png



For ANH we only have three details that can be made out-- an early Folmer strip-knurled button on the stunt saber, the eye on the Luke/Leia blackshirt promo pic, and the full-knurled button from the toe pic.

ANH_flex.jpg


Roger Christian claims "six or so" belt-hangers made, but outside of the button on the stunt, everything seems to be the same so that's hard to confirm. It's not out of line to assume in the "box of parts" Christian found that the strip-knurled button may have been in the mix as they mostly appeared on early Folmers. It seems that the full-knurled buttons came early enough that they appear on most every model save for the telegraph model.

Verdict: ANH uses an early Folmer for the belthanger.

ESB doesn't tip its hand much in terms of super close up details, save for this one we all know and love:

ESB_flex.png


Given what we can make out "NEW YORK" in the engraving, this makes this model an early Folmer as it was the only model to spell out New York. All of the buttons used on all the variants are full-knurled.

Because ESB used multiple belt-hangers and stunts, and we don't know if the Graflexes all came from the same lot or were sourced from various places, it's impossible to know if every single one was the same model. But for sanity's sake, looking at this one example from a short-bladed stunt...

Verdict: ESB uses at least one early Folmer.

For TFA two of the key details are altered-- the eye is ground down to brass, and the endcap is covered. Additionally, there are no super-clear definitive shots of the pins. The Disney Launch Bay versions are made by the TFA prop team, and are Graflex inc versions, leading us to assume the TFA onscreen Graflexes are as well.

But in comparing these two shots with Scott's images....

TFA_Flex.jpg


...I feel like they could be Graflex Inc. or late Folmers.

Verdict: Unknown! Help!

Similarly, in TLJ, the glass eye has been modified and the endcap is obscured. There's a ton of profile shots, but not many that show the eye at an angle to judge the bezel. But I think the pins show enough detail to be called as Graflex Inc.

TLJ_flex.jpg


While the "white-glove" Graflex can't be guaranteed as being used onscreen, it certainly looks identical in every other way.

One outlier-- this TLJ display version:

View attachment 808009

From some angles that looks like a Graflex Inc eye, while from others, an early Folmer. The pins are Graflex Inc., and again there's no way to confirm this one was used onscreen, but why can't me eye make up its mind?

Verdict: TLJ most likely uses Graflex Inc versions.

If anyone disagrees or has more confirmations, PLEASE speak up! Especially about TFA.
 
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Don’t forget surface finish. Some Folmers have a shinier finish.

There is also another tell that’s typical of an early Folmer, but I don’t think it’s ever been discussed on the boards or fb, so I won’t be the one to mention it.
 
The vintage 3-cell I have has the Folmer eye and bottom but the tip ring pins. Should we assume parts swapping on the part of the owner (it was attached to a well-used camera when I bought it), or we're there Folmers with the tipped pins?
 
Don’t forget surface finish. Some Folmers have a shinier finish.

There is also another tell that’s typical of an early Folmer, but I don’t think it’s ever been discussed on the boards or fb, so I won’t be the one to mention it.

Does the finish change specifically between models? I thought there were variations for each. As for the unnamed tell-- I think it's mentioned in Scott's thread and the guide... if not I'm intrigued!

The vintage 3-cell I have has the Folmer eye and bottom but the tip ring pins. Should we assume parts swapping on the part of the owner (it was attached to a well-used camera when I bought it), or we're there Folmers with the tipped pins?

Unless it's NOS I'd always assume the possibility of swapping parts--especially if it's coming of a camera. Photographers love to get new gear and jury-rig stuff.
 
Does the finish change specifically between models? I thought there were variations for each. As for the unnamed tell-- I think it's mentioned in Scott's thread and the guide... if not I'm intrigued!



Unless it's NOS I'd always assume the possibility of swapping parts--especially if it's coming of a camera. Photographers love to get new gear and jury-rig stuff.

The finish on my Folmer is substantially shinier than on my two Graflex Inc. 2-cells. They almost look matte by comparison. (That's another thing that made me wonder about parts swapping – the finish is consistent across all the parts, which makes me think it's all Folmer. But then why the pns?)
 
Does the finish change specifically between models? I thought there were variations for each. As for the unnamed tell-- I think it's mentioned in Scott's thread and the guide... if not I'm intrigued!

There is a certain Folmer finish that doesn’t exist for an Inc.

If you were thinking of the thin/thick edge roll on the end cap, that is not the one I was hinting at. There is another...
 
One of the ESB sabers (I think the one that lost it's top button and then became the ranch saber) has a strip knurl button at top to start with.
 
There is a certain Folmer finish that doesn’t exist for an Inc.

If you were thinking of the thin/thick edge roll on the end cap, that is not the one I was hinting at. There is another...
WELL... I know what rest of my weekend will now be...

One of the ESB sabers (I think the one that lost it's top button and then became the ranch saber) has a strip knurl button at top to start with.
Yes-- it's actually the short blades stunt / Wampa cave! The bottom of which was added to the Dagobah upper.
 
Hey teecrooz ! Is the tell you're thinking of the upper-half one or lower half one?

I'd be willing to bet the guy that I bought my GRAFLEXes from 20+ years ago switched as many 2-CELLs to 3-CELLs that he could to sell them to me and as many other STAR WARS geeks that he could find looking for them. I kick myself a little for not snatching up the 2-CELLs he had too.

I have a 3-CELL with smooth pins, thin knurled RED BUTTON, and the sharp-lipped flat-beveled GLASS EYE, ...but it has a GRAFLEX INC. 3-CELL BOTTOM. It even has the _____ in the _____ so I'm 99% certain it was either an Early Folmer 2-CELL, or something happened to its original 3-CELL bottom and one way or another it got swapped by my seller, or whoever he bought it from to sell to me.

I can tell you with 100% certainty, my seller didn't know anything about which lightsaber had which specific model of GRAFLEX, nor their configurations partswise, other than it had to have a 3-CELL BOTTOM. My guess is that the tops I have came with the clamps I have for them, but there's no telling if the bottoms came with those particular tops from the factory.

Good Luck on your quests SethS and halliwax ! May the FORCE fire you onto the true path.
 
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Hey @teecrooz ! Is the tell you're thinking of the upper-half one or lower half one?

I'd be willing to bet the guy that I bought my GRAFLEXes from 20+ years ago switched as many 2-CELLs to 3-CELLs that he could to sell them to me and as many other STAR WARS geeks that he could find looking for them. I kick myself a little for not snatching up the 2-CELLs he had too.

I have a 3-CELL with smooth pins, thin knurled RED BUTTON, and the sharp-lipped flat-beveled GLASS EYE, ...but it has a GRAFLEX INC. 3-CELL BOTTOM. It even has the _____ in the _____ so I'm 99% certain it was either an Early Folmer 2-CELL, or something happened to its original 3-CELL bottom and one way or another it got swapped by my seller, or whoever he bought it from to sell to me.

I can tell you with 100% certainty, my seller didn't know anything about which lightsaber had which specific model of GRAFLEX, nor their configurations partswise, other than it had to have a 3-CELL BOTTOM. My guess is that the tops I have came with the clamps I have for them, but there's no telling if the bottoms came with those particular tops from the factory.

Good Luck on your quests @SethS and @halliwax ! May the FORCE fire you onto the true path.

Are you kidding me, I have no chance in hell figuring this out... lmao!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Sure you can, if what he's eluding to is what I'm thinking of, it's been mentioned here before.

One thing I noticed a halfhour ago, that I've NEVER NOTICED BEFORE, is that I have two bulb holders that go left to right, and two that go right to left.

My "Early Folmer" upper does have 3 distinct differences from the other 3 GRAFLEXes that I have. One has been mentioned before, the other two I'm not sure of. I just haven't seen enough "Early Folmers" to know if those are common distinctions, or just random mass-production variances on the one that I have.
 
OK.

The mystery of what other "tells" might be out there, as alluded to in this thread, prompted me to get out my original GRAFLEX flashes and take a look.

In this line-up, going from left to right, the first 3 flashes are later flashes with stepped pins, non-blackened GRAFLEX lettering on the clamp, and brushed finishes. The last 3 flashes on the right-hand side are early flashes with chrome finishes, blackened GRAFLEX lettering on the clamp, and smooth pins:

A264C823-10F8-412D-9A93-3D047DF4E4C3.jpeg

The difference in the finishes is easy to see in-person, between the early and the later flashes, but hard to see in photos. Here, a chrome early flash is on top and a later brushed finish is on the bottom:
31CFCAB3-7C48-468D-8343-8E1E8DBA450A.jpeg

I did find a key difference between the early flashes and later flashes that has not been discussed before--and it has to do with the clamps. Specifically, it as to do with the post/pin in the hinge of the clamp lever. Is this the other "tell" being referred to?

In the early flashes, with the blackened GRAFLEX writing on the clamp, the post used as the hinge pin in the clamp lever is a simple post with no head on it. In the later flashes, with no blackened GRAFLEX lettering on the clamp, the post used as the hinge pin is a traditional post with a flat-head on the top of the post (like a nail). You can see differences here in this quick photo, below...

The early GRAFLEX is on top--with a simple post with no head on the top of the clamp lever hinge pin. The later GRAFLEX is on the bottom with the post with the large, flat (nail-like) head on the top of the clamp lever hinge pin:

DBCD123E-CE57-48F1-B81C-03616B89B9F2.jpeg


I found this difference in the clamp lever hinge pin posts to be uniform in all of my flashes with all early flashes having head-less clamp lever hinge pin posts and all later model flashes having flat-head hinge pin posts.

Older model is on the bottom, here, and the newer model is on the top:

5C438A75-7596-4321-B9EC-6B2BE3D2C91C.jpeg

Older is on the left, newer is on the right:

3843C503-BA2E-4529-BA66-9BF3E6AC4E94.jpeg
 
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Thanks Alley! A detail overlooked by many, even all the replica makers who stamp theirs as an early Folmer and have straight pins and sharp bevels on the glass eyes.

Obi-Wan used one of these clamps as did a certain Luke stunt, among others.
 

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By god, I can rest! Lol thank you both for sharing this

This is the first I’ve ever heard of or seen this, pretty cool!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I don't know that this applies to the Graflex discussion totally as I have only read the first few entries. And I am not trying to be a wet blanket, but to nail down exact "Correct" parts on OT sabers may be very difficult to do, even with the excellent research that has already been done. I explain my thoughts below.

I used to be a big collector of military rifles (specifically M1 Garand, M1 Carnine, M1911, M1903, M1903A3 (A4), and the M1917) and did a ton of research on factory new "Correct" and what happened during cleaning and refurbishment. Considering the Graflex Speed graphic was primarily a media and higher end camera during it's heyday, the flash was not considered to be that great a setup (from what I remember reading). I imagine that over the years some went to the shop with a camera for repair, and if a person owned more than one flash, parts may have been swapped occasionally. I would see this as being more common with the bottom/top's, button, and perhaps the glass eye. I doubt unless done by a shop, many people changed pins, if ever.

What is probably more of a common occurrence is with the overlap in parts during the manufacturing process itself. Even still today much manufacturing is done out of parts bins. These bins are used until they need replenishing and if a swap happens there tends to be an overlap of parts during that manufacturing cycle. So while it is more common to see a certain parts grouping in high volume runs, when changes occur, you will see overlap. This could occur at any time with any part unless a parts is shown defective, the last inventory will be used and even mixed with new if small minor non-defective swapping occurs.

I would think that it is entirely possible to see a later manufactured top mated to a late (early no PAT) bottom, new eye or button, or pin design and a pretty mixed bag of parts that would be really be hard to nail down exact time frames and parts without factory documentation. Not to mention the owners/shops swapping simple base parts over the years. as the Graflex was what maybe 20+ years (guessing) out of production by the time ANH was filmed?

Fortunately in the world of surplus rifle collecting, especially Springfield, Winchester, Remington, Smith-Corona, etc... documentation was well maintained and researched very hard to gain the information available today. Not to mention each part was marked "stamped" with certain characters, fonts, numbers, etc... that make collecting in that world much easier. Not so much in the camera flash world. Everything is based on shape, profile, screen captions that can be hard to interpret.

I don't know if that helps, and I certainly don't want to throw up a roadblock in researching. I do think it would be a tremendous undertaking to be able to absolutely identify the 100% correct parts of a Graflex used in the OT. Just throwing that out there for consideration.
 
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