Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

Why are you guys tripping out why Snoke was in power, and it took him so long to do so? He was a force user! I thought that was apparent when Kylo choked Hux and said "ok youre supreme leader now". How can anyone compete with a force user for power? Why was the emperor in charge? Cause he was a force user and nobody could oppose him except luke and eventually vader. And, we havent had the final part of the trilogy. Maybe some things will be answered. We have to hope and find out. I understand that since these are already planned as a trilogy, they cant really stand on their own. Its like reading chapters of a book two years apart.

I hate the name Snoke. It sounds so dumb. Honestly, he was dumb in the TFA, so I dont care that he died and Kylo is the new "supreme leader". He was the diet emperor. You dont need to know his whole back story to know why he was bad. Especially since he is dead now. Or maybe not? We dont even know for sure.

I think the issue is that by the end of ROTJ, Luke is pretty much it for Force users. Kylo came later, but Snoke is clearly old enough to have been around during the OT. Those things don’t add up. I’d be able to look past it if so much didn’t hang on him.

The real reason of course is because JJ wanted an Emperor. I liked TFA even though I knew it was an ANH R.I.P. off— I got why they did it to get the right tone and feel back.

But now I feel like half of TLJ was wasted chasing down all the plot danglers from TFA that JJ set up with no intention of answering.

Wait... I got it. Snoke = Sifo Dyas.

Two of the biggest plot danglers solved.

At the moment I am quite a bit devastated.At the moment I am quite a bit devastated.

Movies CAN be analyzed by their adherence to established rules for drama and story telling and editing.
You CANNOT ignore those rules that partially go back to the ancient greek dramas or shakespearean plays.
You CANNOT pass filmschool until you made a movie that adheres to those rules. Or create something incredibly new.

TLJ imo sticks basically to those rules but is a SLOPPY and convoluted mess without a clear direction.

Rian Johnson is imo TOO young a director. Where GL at that age showed a great talent for visuals and had help with the script by Gloria Katz and others, AND had some serious ANGST driving him forward and THEN a VISION, i cant see anythinh of the aforementioned really drive that TLJ director.

Everything to me feels very remote and removed from emotions. What were the motivations other than cookie cutter excuses to show some unnecessary action sequences?
I was not able to connect to many of the characters, a few times I was interested in them, but then that was blown to bits by the follow up scenes. Snoke, Rose, the Lando clone, tje FO captain, Phasma, the praetorian guard.

Anyway, I am going to watch EP9, but I think that the EVENT that a star wars movie was to me is no more. It has been banalized, so it will be watched in the most banal format, TV.

It was obvious to all my friends at Lfl and The Mouse that this was a dog when they saw it.

That being said It will still rake in the money so better luck next time! :lol

the Pawn said:

I’ve spoken to some friends in the industry and the plot holes, ie...Frozen Space Leia; Luke’s lack of story; Rey’s parentage; Snoke’s non-story; 18 hour time frame for movie; remake of ESB plot line, etc...are becoming more and more glaring and problematic upon multiple viewing.

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I saw and, well... I'm a little disappointed (for many of the reasons already cited). Maybe I'll feel better about it after a second viewing, but I don't have much hope that'll be the case. Oh well.

I really hope Disney doesn't cave to fan backlash. Chasing fan approval is both futile and the surest way to ruin anything interesting. Exhibit A) AOTC Fetts

SethS said:

But now I feel like half of TLJ was wasted chasing down all the plot danglers from TFA that JJ set up with no intention of answering.

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I agree most of the problems were inherited from JJ
But the whole bizzare 18hr chase was all Rians fault

@caymen shen. I don't think they give a toss about what fans think.
halliwax. Yeah I noted the absence of 'I got a a bad feeling about this'. They are gradually dumping everything that is inherently Star Wars.


I keep wondering, if the ultimate outcome for Luke, was to die, why not have him raise the X-wing actually go to Crait and face Kylo Ren. If it goes badly, the outcome is the same(?)
i get that he must be very powerful to project himself like that but it is lost on their new target audience of casual viewers and children and the general consensus seems to be an unfitting end to the our greatest Jedi hero.
I think the movies is far more good than bad but I've only watched it once so far and I'm hoping that next time the bad stuff won't seem so bad and I leave focused on all that was good.

You know when I watch lethal weapon 2 I don't come out of the film angry because I don't know Joss Aklands characters back story. He's just the bad guy, and its all he needs to be.

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cboath said:

Luke did explain the drawing of the saber...a moment of weakness, sensing the level of darkness and how far gone he already was and then was instant ashamed and was turning it off when kylo awoke, and frankly, justifiably freaked. In that version, i wouldn't say it was raise, just ignited..

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True, but it also was a completely misused opportunity. Instead of having Luke feel and express shame for his moment of weakness (which in terms of his character was dumb) they could have easily had Luke sense the darkness in Kylo and be completely confident that he can turn him back. He did it with Darth Vader, who presumably was far more seated in the dark side, why shouldn't he be able to pull his nephew back, who was his own student and not burned to a crisp..
Having Luke fail to do this preserves everything we know about his character and plays perfectly into his speech about the hubris of the Jedi
Instead we get the entire plot of the trilogy centered on a Three's Company style misunderstanding...

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Two final thoughts..

Did the one Solo cup guard really have a slingshot?

And the only cool and beautiful scene for me was rebel flagship jumping to lightspeed through the Star Destroyers.

halliwax said:

i haven't read through this whole thread yet. but i just got back from the second viewing, anyone else notice no one said "i got a bad feeling about this"

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I'm pretty sure they've decided to let the audience say it.

glunark said:

You know when I watch lethal weapon 2 I don't come out of the film angry because I don't know Joss Aklands characters back story. He's just the bad guy, and its all he needs to be.

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That is because with a few swift and broad strokes he is chracterized. He also just goes around and has people killed, there is no real connection to our heroed except for the link to Riggs.

niennumb1 that’s wasnt the temple attack in the rain in the flashback. Look at the bodies on the ground, they are adults in different clothing.

Exactly. So much of this dissapointment is fans not having their personal expectations met. If their pet detail isn't explored or elevated, they go off the rails. *Cough Phasma*

As an average sci-fi fantasty film, it was entertaining, but forgettable. As a Star Wars film, it was atrocious. This was not Star Wars.

A major part of Luke's heroism is searching for the good in people and trying to bring it out of them. As everyone else gave up on Vader, he didn't and he risked his life for it. This search for good in others is engrained in his identity.

The people who made this film had zero understanding of that. Luke would never have held a lightsaber over his nephew and insist that he's not redeemable, especially since it was obvious even to this random girl Rey who could sense that he was conflicted. But somehow in the years since ROTJ, Luke has turned into a homicidal maniac who considers killing his nephew while he sleeps.

While I found Luke to be the most unsettling part of the film, there was plenty more nonsense throughout the rest of it. The plot line of the First Order holding back from attacking the Resistance ships was such incredibly lazy writing. How convenient for Finn and new girl to go to the casino city, get arrested, break out, and sneak on a star destroyer all while the First Order is still slowly pursuing this Resistance ship. The entire time, all I could think was, why the heck aren't these guys attacking this ship that isn't going anywhere? They already sent out Kylo and some other TIE Fighters to hit the bridge. This made no sense. Did that whole plot line with Finn and new girl in the casino even serve a purpose considering they were caught and there was a ship that rammed into the star destroyer in the end? It was all pointless in the end. Nothing came from it. Same with Poe's mutiny plot line. Outright pointless, nothing came from it as he was stunned in the end and woke up.

The Throne Room scenes had lines that were taken almost verbatim from ROTJ, all the while I kept thinking, "Haven't we already seen this scene?" How is Snoke so powerful too since not even Palpatine, the ultimate Sith lord, could do what he was doing? Guess we'll never know as they never bothered telling that story. Palpatine was the head of a fascist political Empire, but what exactly is the First Order? They're not a government, so how in the world do they get any money or support for what they do? Again, no explanation, so it gets pretty hard to care beyond just an artificial label of 'bad guy'.

The over-the-top uses of the Force were absurd. In the OT, the Force was subtle and mysterious. In this film, it was a joke from Leia to whatever-the-heck Luke was doing at the end telepathically dying. I like Rey and Kylo communicating with each other through Snoke (yet again, how does Snoke even know how to do that considering the Sith are dead? Who is he?), but then the awful self-aware humor throughout the film had to ruin those moments too from the dumb shirt joke to "I don't feel like talking" or whatever similar thing he said.

Well I just read an interview where Rian Johnson said at the premiere that because of the total top secrecy at Disney Lucasfilm in regards to TLJ then only 10 people saw the film in the editing stage and final cut. Because these 10 people laughed at his jokes and liked his story line then this is how his final vision and cut was met with overall approval at Disney Lucasfilm.

This is the problem with the “mystery box” approach to films. The Hype whether good or Bad may end up killing a film beforehand by causing a potential good film to be edited prior to release or completion by the original director, ie Justice League, Suicide Squad and maybe Solo (we will know next May) or a bad film like TLJ to be released without testing it first because the film relies on the “mystery box.” If the script relies on total secrecy because the filmmakers want every plot detail to be an “I am your Luke moment!” then be prepared for having your film be similar to the TPM and AOTC where the Star Wars Hype Effect takes place and the first reviews are awesome and clouded then after the dust settles the films are digested and re-reviewed and are then considered bad.

The reason ROTS is the best film in GL’s PT is because there was no “mystery” for the audience as we already knew the basic plot line, ie Anakin battles Obi Wan and turns to Darth Vader. This should also have been a golden opportunity for ROTS to become one of the best films in the series because most of us had waited so long to see Obi Wan fight Anakin after GL renamed Star Wars to Star Wars: Episode IV: A New Hope in 1980.

I just wish GL would have concentrated more on the acting, dialogue and story then what he called a “tool” ie the CGI and special effects. There will probably be only one James Cameron’s Avatar every 10-15 years where a film comes out pushing the technological envelope in filmmaking, ie 3D and Motion Capturing, that it turns out great but lacks an original story. GL was the one who said that Special Effects are only a tool and the story should always come first.

It would be interesting to see ROTS remade today by a modern film maker using better story telling and actual sets and practical effects. Oh well, but at least the GL version we got was the best of the PT and he went out on a higher note then his previous two PT attempts.


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spacebob said:

That would be the best thing in my opinion, with George actually used as a consultant instead of just being a line in the credits.

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Dave filoni

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Yeah i like Filoni a lot, but would still let Gareth have over-all say

I'm gonna focus on the positive for a second.


At least there weren't any on this stupid heavy scout walkers

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I guess I'm one of the guy who is disappointed with this movie, and I think it boils down to this: So far this trilogy is effectively little more than a reboot of the original trilogy. Nothing has changed, this isn't a new story but a retelling of the story we've already seen. We know nothing about Snoke; where the hell did he come from? A powerful force user just shows up out of nowhere to seize control of the remnants of the Empire and 'rebrand' it? OK great but you need to explain how that happened and why all the struggles of the OT were effectively for naught. I'm struggling to enjoy these films at all without some kind of explanation of why we're in this situation. The OT didn't need to explain why things were the way they were, you just jumped right into the story and that was how it was. If you're going to follow that story up with them being in more or less exactly the same situation, we need to know why. Super lazy storytelling. Whatever Lucas's faults as a movie maker were, storytelling was not one of them.

Even assuming you don't know the backstory and don't care why they're in this situation, this movie had issues. The character development of Finn and Poe was terrible. Very forced, and Finn's whole storyline could have been cut with no harm done to the movie. Phasma was a complete waste of time (again). As someone already said, this trilogy's Boba Fett, though at least Fett served some purpose in ESB. It's like they had a bunch of what they felt were really cool ideas and couldn't bear to leave any of them out, so they just shoehorned them all in regardless.

Not to say there weren't good things too. Rey's storyline was great, Daisy Ridley was fantastic as was Mark Hamill. I remain on the fence about Kylo Ren. My issues with him relate to the whole Snoke problem, but leaving that aside he's a pretty good villain and Adam Driver also did a great job. It's also nice to see Chewie as more of a standalone character and more than just a sidekick to Han. The whole film was visually stunning and the music was great too. Unfortunately Rogue One taught us that not everyone can score a SW film.

Definitely not the best Star Wars film ever like some crazy folk are saying. Still rates under every OT movie as well as ROTS for me. On par with TPM and AOTC, though they're all at the bottom for different reasons!