Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

  • It was great. Loved it. Don't miss it at the theaters.

    Votes: 154 26.6%
  • It was good. Liked it very much. Worth the theater visit.

    Votes: 135 23.4%
  • It was okay. Not too pleased with it. Could watch it at the cinema once or wait for home video.

    Votes: 117 20.2%
  • It was disappointing. Watch it on home video instead.

    Votes: 70 12.1%
  • It was bad. Don't waste your time with it.

    Votes: 102 17.6%

  • Total voters
    578
Solo4114 and BigDaddy,

The real question is "why are you two so wholly supportive of Tran portraying/ representing asian women so badly? "

No, the real question is "Why are you so hell-bent on defending trolls?" Because that's been pretty much all you've been doing above here.

Rose was a terrible stereotype of an awkward, lost soul, willing to bully if given the chance, yet you two are continuously trolling to defend this awful steteotype. It is shameful you claim to defend *her* but you are defending what she portrayed and re-inforced, an ugly stereotype. A terrible stereotype.

Rose was an insult to women, and to asians. You two are so proud of that? Finn was ready to abandon her!! Would she be more satisfying to you goofballs if he beat her? Got her pregnant, THEN LEFT? Because that is what you are eager to support.

The real question is "why do you feel such a miserable portrayal of asian women is acceptable?" Why are you insisting on defending such trash?

Women are wonderful, asian women, doubly so. Check YOUR standards, before you judge evrryone elses.

So troll all you want, we know better.

Dont accuse *others* of *your* prejudice, you wiill eventually get figured out.

I....don't think you actually know what "troll" means.

I'm not trolling you. I'm having a discussion with you and pointing out the implication of your words. Beyond that, I'm stating my own opinion. None of that is trolling. I haven't harassed you, I haven't called you names, I haven't slung insults at you. I've merely pointed out your words, and that they come across as you defending the kind of trolling that Kelly Marie Tran received.

If you don't think she deserved that treatment, cool. Say so.

If you think that the behavior of the trolls who harassed her was out of line, awesome. Say so.

This shouldn't be a difficult thing to do. One can still take issue with the character as written and criticized the behavior of the people who harassed her. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition. One can likewise take issue with aspects of her performance or with the direction she received, and still call out people who are behaving in a toxic manner.

You haven't done that. Instead, what you've written comes across as you seeking to turn this back on her, as if to imply that it's her fault for "baiting" her fans, for basking in the hype spotlight, and then having it blow up in her face. All of that suggests that you think she deserved the behavior she received.

When you seek to justify that behavior, to somehow excuse it or explain it away or otherwise fail to clearly condemn it, when you seek to change the subject to something like "Well, but what about how her character is an awful stereotype? And what about how you're trolling me?" all it does is come across as you being either unable or unwilling to condemn clearly ****ty behavior by a bunch of jackasses.

To be clear: there is nothing wrong with criticizing aspects of the film. Go ahead and criticize the Rose character as you've done above. Go ahead and criticize the plot holes you see. Go ahead and point out technical flaws or muddled character motivations. Talk about how time passes at an inconsistent rate, or how things change at an unbelievably fast pace if time is passing consistently. Those are all perfectly legitimate criticisms and discussions to have.

None of that justifies, explains, or excuses people doing stuff like harassing an actor online because they didn't like the movie, or modifying the wookiepedia page for the character to include a bunch of insults, including racist bull****. I see no reason whatsoever to defend that behavior, unless the person doing the defending is someone who actually supports that behavior.

So, like I said, if you instead condemn the behavior, cool. Just say so. And don't defend it or try to deflect criticisms of it. I get the sense that you actually don't support the behavior or think it's acceptable. If that's the case, then we're in agreement. You can still dislike the Rose character as much as you please.


As to your attempt to somehow turn this discussion into one about me being racist because I didn't hate the Rose character,

giphy.gif




I never said she deserved such treatment. I said it comes with the territory, when you become famous. Deal with it, or step out of the limelight.

Which she did. That hasn't been my point, though.

Look, all of this got started on here because of a Mark Hamill tweet condemning the harassment she'd received. In the course of that discussion, there's been a bunch of stuff said that seems to try to justify or explain away the treatment she received. Not criticism in general, but the specific treatment she received that Hamill called out.

As I've said, it shouldn't be hard to condemn this crap. It should be really, really easy. You can still hate the character, hate the films, hate the direction of the franchise as a whole, etc., etc., etc. You can do so without being a racist or a sexist, too. And you can do so while simultaneously calling out people who were acting like a**holes. I mean, folks in this thread have been very fond of talking about how obvious it is that Hamill hates what was done to Luke, how he thinks TLJ is a travesty, and whatnot. So hey, if Mark Hamill -- hater of all things TLJ -- can find it in himself to unequivocally call out garbage behavior, so can anyone else here, and they can probably do so without getting into whataboutisms or deflections or attempts to somehow explain the behavior in any way that gives it an air of legitimacy.

It's not legitimate behavior. It's just people being a**holes, and they should be called out for it. Full stop.
 
This goes a smidge off-topic for a bit, but gets back on course. This was a pretty profound moment for me, and I felt I needed to do justice to it by documenting it.

I completed the Star Wars hexalogy with a female friend last night; we watched them in release order, so Revenge of the Sith was on tap. She had never seen any of the Star Wars films before; it was all completely new to her.

All along, she has asked the most in-depth characters about character motivations, plotlines, possible inconsistencies, etc. Stuff that you have taken for granted for so long, you feel embarrassed it isn't on the tip of your tongue, and it makes you do a mental run-though of the mechanics of things that you haven't really thought about in years.

A bit after Order 66, when things really started getting dark, she mentioned how the movie was making her sad, in the most pitiful voice. She was crying, and trying to hold it in as best she could.

Through six movies, not one bit of criticism, just analysis. Because no matter how lost in the story she was (and she definitely was!), it was a movie. Just a movie. There was no bar to hold anything to, just a story about a triumph, tragedy, and an epic fall from grace. Everything that was included in the story was as it should be, because, well, it was someone else's story. She chose to buy in or not; but the subject matter and all of its constructive elements was beyond reproach to her. Invested, but at a distance.

I felt embarrassed for how I'd handled Star Wars in the past; like many of us, I'd made it my own. Being a part of my childhood, I fancied myself a shareholder of the franchise that had "paid my dues", and demanded that it be presented on my terms. It was ten years before I would watch the prequels again, so disappointed that they essentially couldn't alter the time-space continuum, and transport me back to 1977. The audacity of George Lucas, to fail me...

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I was seven years old, and life was fun and full of promise. At 48, I see a staple of my childhood in the crosshairs of a discussion about racial and gender intolerance. I realize this is where we are, in a society hiding behind glass and anonymity, separated by miles of radio waves, and it's not going to get better. But thanks to a dear friend with a true center and proper sense of priorities, that only took that which was good from a simple piece of fiction that I probably held as something bigger than it deserved, I know I can get better personally. I wish that everyone had someone that could ground them in the way my friend did for me.

As I've been oh-so-proud to document many times, I hated TLJ. But I'm going to buy the DVD today, and watch it again one day. Will I like it better? Ummm... :) But I'm tired of being angry, tired of over-analyzing, and truth be known, kind of just tired of caring so much about Star Wars. Now as a social lightning rod, it's an exhausting exercise at times. Perhaps after all these years, it's finally time to re-compartmentalize it. It's too bad, it certainly didn't have to be this way...or, as just another mirror of society, maybe it did.
 
Solo4114,

You were openly busted claiming, " I have yet to see anyone offer any reason..." right after I provided reason.

That makes you the troll. There is a clear trail of proof.

And yes, defending someone who receives negative attention for portraying an ugly stereotype puts you in that boat as well. Why are you so eager to give such a terrible stereotype a pass?

The alternative is to accept her character as a anything but a shameful portayal of asian women, free of criticism. Does she deserve f-bombs? No more than we deserve you continuously creating false arguments for me or TheWook (for instance) to defend. No more than the first hyped asian women in the Star Wars franchise gets to portray asian women as tragedy.

The a--holes thought Rose was great! They have no issue with an asian girl falling in love with a guy who'd abandon her 18 hours prior. Bags packed! Zai jian! Lets stop Finn from crashing into the battering ram! Maybe that will help assure EVERYONE DIES

I know plenty of women and men and asians who read articles about her, watched her gleaming in interviews, focused on her in the spotlight, and couldnt wait to see her, only to be overwhelmingly betrayed. But you are good with that.

You are perfectly fine with low standards for asian women. You cant understand what's the big deal, you are just accepting the trashing of a gender and race of people.

And somehow, everyone *else* has the problem. Rrrrrrright.

Dodge all you want. You and BigDaddy have been called out, and he ran.
 
Solo4114,

You were openly busted claiming, " I have yet to see anyone offer any reason..." right after I provided reason.

That makes you the troll. There is a clear trail of proof.

Again, that's not what trolling is. I'm trying to have a serious discussion with you here. You may not like the discussion itself, but that doesn't make it trolling.

And yes, defending someone who receives negative attention for portraying an ugly stereotype puts you in that boat as well. Why are you so eager to give such a terrible stereotype a pass?

The alternative is to accept her character as a anything but a shameful portayal of asian women, free of criticism. Does she deserve f-bombs? No more than we deserve you continuously creating false arguments for me or TheWook (for instance) to defend.

1. It's beyond F-bombs. F-bombs aren't racist harassment. F-bombs aren't sexist harassment. F-bombs are bad. The other stuff is worse.

2. Dude, you're the one who's spent the better part of this discussion trying to point out how awful the character of Rose was in the midst of a discussion of people being online trolls and harassing the actor who played Rose. People didn't like the character. Fine. That doesn't make it OK for them to give the actor grief online, especially to harass her or troll her with racist and sexist comments. That's what I've been saying this entire time. That's all I've been saying. You've been talking about how awful the character was, and what a terrible stereotype (we'll get to that in a minute) she is. If you want to have that conversation, fine. But you're having it within the context of another conversation about the treatment the actor received from the fan base -- specifically the internet harassment that included racist and sexist messages. So, either you're jumping in with a nonsequitor and don't realize it, or you're purposely raising your criticisms of the character the actor played to somehow justify or explain the treatment the actor received -- including the clearly unacceptable behavior that started this whole discussion. If it's the former, I think you're missing the point of this particular discussion. If it's the latter, nice try, but it doesn't work. My hope is that it's not the latter. I'd prefer to think that nobody here on the RPF is seriously sticking up for racist/sexist trolls or trying to justify/excuse their behavior.

3. Even if I were the one putting words in your mouth, that's still nowhere close to the kind of crap Kelly Marie Tran has apparently had to endure. You're talking apples to 1973 Buick Skylarks, much less apples to oranges.

No more than the first hyped asian women in the Star Wars franchise gets to portray asian women as tragedy.

The a--holes thought Rose was great! They have no issue with an asian girl falling in love with a guy who'd abandon her 18 hours prior. Bags packed! Zai jian! Lets stop Finn from crashing into the battering ram! Maybe that will help assure EVERYONE DIES

I know plenty of women and men and asians who read articles about her, watched her gleaming in interviews, focused on her in the spotlight, and couldnt wait to see her, only to be overwhelmingly betrayed. But you are good with that.

You are perfectly fine with low standards for asian women. You cant understand what's the big deal, you are just accepting the trashing of a gender and race of people.

And somehow, everyone *else* has the problem. Rrrrrrright.

Dodge all you want. You and BigDaddy have been called out, and he ran.

I'm not dodging or running from anything. I have nothing to dodge or run from in the first place. You're trying to argue that somehow because I liked a character you didn't like that that makes me racist. I don't have to dodge or run from that because I know it's patently absurd, and isn't true. But hey, I'll play along. Let's break down your argument, shall we?

You say Rose -- the character -- is a shameful portrayal of Asian women. From that, you make the logical Grand-Canyon-Motorcycle-Jump that anyone who sees the character in any positive light is clearly themselves a racist who is perfectly comfortable with Asian women being portrayed badly.

Well then.

First, you haven't really explained what about this is specifically shameful, especially for Asian women. Like, what in her behavior is worthy of shame, specifically? What does she do that either brings shame on Asian women, or should bring shame on the writer for the writer's portrayal of Asian women? From what I can tell from your comments, your biggest issue seems to be....what, that she's emotionally labile? That her motivations are unclear because she goes from mourning her sister to all-in on a plan devised by the (demoted) commander who (arguably) got her sister killed? Is that the shameful part? Is it that she fell in love with a guy in the course of 18 hours specifically? You mentioned that the guy was willing to abandon her 18 hours prior, but the film makes it clear that he's not "abandoning Rose," so much as he's getting off the ship to go find Rey and warn her not to go back to the fleet that he thinks is about to be destroyed. To the extent he's abandoning anyone, it's not Rose specifically but rather the Resistance as a whole (which is part of his character flaws, and one he overcomes in the course of the film). Is the shameful part that she tries to stop Finn when he goes on his suicide run? I can see all of those as criticisms of the character and how it was written. I don't see anything in there that is specifically shaming to Asian women, to women in general, or that is meant to cast Asians in a negative light. I see some problems with character motivation, but none of that has anything to do with (1) Rose being Asian, or (2) Rose being a woman. It's not like the film makes a point to underscore that any of the shifts in her attitudes are because she's Asian or a woman (or both). If your argument is merely that, because an Asian woman played a character whom you feel was written poorly, that that shames all Asian women, that strikes me as...a bit of a stretch. Why would anyone feel shame for any of that? I don't get it. I certainly don't see any flaws in the writing as reflecting anything about Asians, women, or Asian women. I don't see how Rose is a stereotype at all. Maybe there's some stereotype about Asians or Asian women I've not heard of that involves them being emotionally labile, but if so, it's a new one on me.

To your second point, that anyone who doesn't take issue with the character the way you do is clearly fine with demeaning Asian women, that's just flat-out wrong. I see different aspects of Rose's character than you. I see a character who begins the film as a nobody, and who comes to find the hero within herself. She's not a perfect character at all, but she steps up in the face of adversity, she fights to help those who are forced to live like slaves, and she puts herself in harm's way to help the galaxy as a whole. Her decision to knock Finn out of his suicide run offers an alternative view of heroism as one that puts protecting what you love above destroying what you hate. Moreover, although you may disagree, I think the film attempts to show that Finn's run isn't merely suicidal but also doomed to fail and be completely ineffective. As he's racing towards the cannon, his speeder is already beginning to disintegrate, and there's no reason to believe that he's going to even reach it, let alone dent it. What good does a noble sacrifice do if it accomplishes nothing? Finn can do more to protect the Resistance alive than he can by getting blown up by the cannon before he's even able to damage it. Rose recognizes this, and recognizes that Finn is being driven by his own hatred of the First Order, and intervenes to save him -- at her own peril, too. So, I see plenty to look up to in the character. You disagree. That's fine. Reasonable people can disagree on how the character has been written and/or on how Kelly Marie Tran portrayed the character.

But claiming that I'm racist because I disagree with your interpretation of the character? That dog don't hunt.
 
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Solo4114,

Wow! So, um, since you dont know, endlessly pouting that no one will answer you, after you've been answered *IS* trolling.

Claiming I havent stated what was so terrible about Rose, yet you *address the examples* I've provided is rich! That's like, well beyond trolling.

I get it, you just want attention and will stoop to no low, including defending pathetic female asian stereotypes to accomplish this.

Sad you dont have an issue with a grouo of people being portrayed so poorly, but are eager to attack those that know better.

Like I told BigDaddy, maybe you should hang out with some asian women before you choose such a hate-filled cause
 
How is ANYTHING Rose did in the film indicative of a stereotype of Asian women?

I hated the movie and dismissed her character, but because you so vehemently defend this absurd idea that her character was a stereotype, wouldn't that be Rian Johnsons fault for writing her that way?
 
Solo4114,

Wow! So, um, since you dont know, endlessly pouting that no one will answer you, after you've been answered *IS* trolling.

Claiming I havent stated what was so terrible about Rose, yet you *address the examples* I've provided is rich! That's like, well beyond trolling.

I get it, you just want attention and will stoop to no low, including defending pathetic female asian stereotypes to accomplish this.

Sad you dont have an issue with a grouo of people being portrayed so poorly, but are eager to attack those that know better.

Like I told BigDaddy, maybe you should hang out with some asian women before you choose such a hate-filled cause

I'm gonna say two things.

First, you don't actually know anything about me. You don't know my ethnicity, you don't know my background, you don't know with whom I associate or what they've told me they think about the film, the actors, or the overall direction of the franchise, if anything. You don't know my attitudes on politics or race in general. You don't know anything other than what I post on here, and -- to be fair -- there's no reason you should. But that also means you don't get to tell me that I should hang out with Asian women before choosing what you describe as a hate-filled "cause." Incidentally, I'm not sure how "opinion of a fictional character" morphed into a "cause" but that's as may be.

Second, I've been pretty civil with you and have attempted to engage you in an actual discussion. You seem like you'd rather score imaginary points which I gather you're tallying in your mind to determine who "wins" this discussion, and are not really interested in an intellectually honest debate. You've made bald assertions with no proof. You've insinuated that Kelly Marie Tran deserved to be harassed by racist and sexist a**holes, and then when called out for it, attempted to deflect by saying "But what about how her role itself was racist?" and then cited to...stuff that has nothing to do with the character's race, other than the fact that the character was played by an Asian woman, and attempted to blow that into some damning portrait of a racial stereotype. When I asked you to explain what specifically about those things was racist, you decided that merely listing them provides understanding of how exactly those things you listed portray a negative stereotype of an entire sex and ethnicity. And then you decided to call me a racist because I think you've failed to support your assertions or explain yourself in any manner one would describe as coherent. Or maybe it's just because I disagree with you.

My sense of you is that you very much disliked TLJ, and that you dislike the direction of the franchise. I'm sorry about that. Truly. I know how that feels, because it's how I felt around the prequels. All I can tell you is that it does get better over time and that there's a lot of Star Wars for you to enjoy in spite of your dissatisfaction. Maybe even more than you realize. In the meantime, though, you seem to be casting about for arguments that legitimate your opinion, and have settled on "forced diversity" as having somehow hurt the story, especially in terms of the character of Rose, whom you describe as a racist Asian stereotype. I doubt you're going to find many converts to that view, especially if you can't articulate your position any better than you did in here. You're also probably going to want to come up with a better argument to support "Rose is a racist stereotype" before you start acting like a dick and insisting that everyone who doesn't believe Rose is a racist stereotype is themselves racist.



I believe we're done here.
 
Solo4114
Dan, you have the patience of a Saint!:cool:thumbsup

Since I didn't like TLJ and barely remember the character Rose, I don't have the knowledge or interest in that vein of conversation.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to........
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Solo4114,

Um, I pretty well proved you *havent* been civil.

You asked for an answer, you got an answer. Then you claim no one gave you an answer.

You have been properly defined as a troll. I still consider you claiming I never mentioned what Rose did that was bad, yet later responded to what I said was bad about Rose IN YOUR SAME POST as classic.

Pure internet gold!

I can see why you want to take the discussion elsewhere.

I've proved my case.

You dont want to be called a troll, dont meet...

...'scuse me, don't EXCEED the criteria.

Claiming you are civil while you repeatedly twisting my arguments or (for instance) The Wook's doesnt make you civil either.

Fans didnt wake up one day and just decide to hate Tran. She rode the media hype, used her race and gender to get noticed, and then her performance was a stain. Dont worry, I already knew/ predicted youd feel uncomfortable in a room full of asian women.
 
You have been anything BUT civil JPH.

Read how it all started, with me politely answering a question only to be ignored and then have my arguments twisted.

The Wook had the exact same issues with his words being twisted.

If you dont think someone claiming I didnt make a point, but then defends that point later on in the *same comment* isn't trolling, I cant help you.
 
I honestly hated roses character and think she was totally unnecessary, but that has nothing to do with the actress and I don't condemn her. How about we close this topic and start talking about someone else such as Kylo, I liked him much better in the last Jedi than force awakens. They did a better job in developing his character. What do you guys think of Kylo in the last Jedi?
 
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