Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Post-release)

Snikt said:
See, that doesnt work. Its like the writers count on the audience knowing that Clark is Superman so when Lex shows that he knows, some people are fine with it because THEY know, and that is hack, crap writing.

Jettison it entirely? Should Bruce Wayne reveal to the world that he is Batman? That didnt work out too well for Iron Man. I like the alter ego, and its part of the mythos of Superman. Besides, if he was always on as Superman, he would be bothered constantly. I mean he has the fortress of solitude, but I dont think he would want to be there constantly. The alter ego thing works if done properly. Zack Snyder doesnt know how to do it properly. Hell, he doesnt know how to do ANYTHING properly...
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Yes I know Zack Snyder is an idiot, the anti-******, he makes the worst movies ever, he's ugly and stupid and he smells.

I can't wait for people to jump off the insult Zack Snyder train, it's quite annoying but I realize it's one of the trendy things to do now.
 
And there lies the problem : Snyder didn't ruin Superman or any D.C. character! He gave us his version, that some like, some don't, but the characters you know and love are still there. You can still pick up any comics you like about them, or any previous film that fit the incarnation you like ! It's like that "ruined my childhood" nonsense...
 
Mola Rob said:
Yes I know Zack Snyder is an idiot, the anti-******, he makes the worst movies ever, he's ugly and stupid and he smells.

I can't wait for people to jump off the insult Zack Snyder train, it's quite annoying but I realize it's one of the trendy things to do now.
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You can take what I say and blow it out of proportion if that makes you feel better, but his failures far outweigh his successes. Especially with more marketable characters/franchise starters.

Hey, I would love to jump off. Maybe when he makes a good movie I will, and you can be condescending all you want by implying that Im just some guy that does trendy things cause its "cool" of whatever, but Im not.

Now if you like him, good for you! If you like what he is doing, and his interpretations float your boat in terms of character then great! Im happy for you! But for the rest of us in the real world, it sucks. (hey look I can be snarky too)
teragon I know he didnt ruin the character man. But its Hollywood. And you usually only get one shot at making something great, otherwise its dead and buried. Yeah of course, if I want to see Superman kick ass, I could always pick up a comic. Thats the thing though, Im a fan of film as a medium. I want the filmmakers to evoke emotions and feelings when Im watching a movie, that I cant get from a comic book. That sense of awe and scale. Sometimes I can, but it has to be REALLY well done, and lets face it, not all comics are all that well done. Im not saying it ruined my childhood at all, and I think thats a different take on it, but when someone has the reins to a franchise and this is what they put out? Its obvious that they dont get the character and dont deserve to be in charge. Trust me man, I WANT DC to do well. I love Superman. I just finished watching Justice League Unlimited on Netflix, and dear god. With a fraction of the time and budget of a couple episodes, its better than what ZS and his crew can do with a truckload of money and years to work on it.
 
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Snikt said:
Hey, I would love to jump off. Maybe when he makes a good movie I will, and you can be condescending all you want by implying that Im just some guy that does trendy things cause its "cool" of whatever, but Im not.

Now if you like him, good for you! If you like what he is doing, and his interpretations float your boat in terms of character then great! Im happy for you! But for the rest of us in the real world, it sucks. (hey look I can be snarky too)
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Hardly being snarky, just being honest. I have seen and heard every possible insult leveled at Zack Snyder for years and it's ridiculous. He directed Man of Steel and BvS, he didn't write them, he didn't produce them, yet hardly anyone mentions that. Everything people perceive to be wrong about the movies are his fault alone. He is being blamed for the faults of Suicide Squad and yet he didn't write it or direct it? I swear if the guy was a caterer on a movie that critics didn't like they would blame him.

There is no doubt in my mind certain directors are "trendy" to put down whether anyone admits it or not. Just mention J.J. Abrams and they same thing will happen.
 
Mola Rob said:
There is no doubt in my mind certain directors are "trendy" to put down whether anyone admits it or not. Just mention J.J. Abrams and they same thing will happen.
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I could mention any one of a hundred public figures and the same thing will happen.
"Trendy" implies that people are parroting others' opinions without thinking for themselves because they think it makes them look "cool".
Saying someone's opinion is "trendy" is condescending as hell.
Really, you could say "Your opinion is just plain stupid and you're stupid" and it would be less insulting than trendily throwing the "trendy" word in there.
You're just trying to set yourself up as somehow superior to anyone who holds a different opinion than you.
Ever hear the old saying "Opinions are like a$$holes..."?
 
Axlotl said:
I could mention any one of a hundred public figures and the same thing will happen.
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No kidding, that's because it becomes a trend. Your point is?
Axlotl said:
"Trendy" implies that people are parroting others' opinions without thinking for themselves because they think it makes them look "cool".
Saying someone's opinion is "trendy" is condescending as hell.
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That is your interpretation not mine.
Axlotl said:
Really, you could say "Your opinion is just plain stupid and you're stupid" and it would be less insulting than trendily throwing the "trendy" word in there.
You're just trying to set yourself up as somehow superior to anyone who holds a different opinion than you.
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I could say that but I didn't because that's not what I think and I sure as hell don't think I'm superior to anyone who holds a different opinion then me, but thanks for telling me what my inner motivations are, I understand myself so much better now.
Axlotl said:
Ever hear the old saying "Opinions are like a$$holes..."?
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I have and I find it funny that most people use it after they have stated their opinion.
 
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Axlotl said:
That's the DEFINITION.

Really disappointed that you didn't notice "trendily throwing the "trendy" word in there."
I was really proud of that...
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It's not really the definition of trendy at all. I think I get the gist of your point - but, "very fashionable or up to date in style or influence" doesn't necessarily mean or imply that some are "parroting others' opinions without thinking for themselves..." at all.
 
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Snikt said:
You can take what I say and blow it out of proportion if that makes you feel better, but his failures far outweigh his successes. Especially with more marketable characters/franchise starters.

Hey, I would love to jump off. Maybe when he makes a good movie I will, and you can be condescending all you want by implying that Im just some guy that does trendy things cause its "cool" of whatever, but Im not.

Now if you like him, good for you! If you like what he is doing, and his interpretations float your boat in terms of character then great! Im happy for you! But for the rest of us in the real world, it sucks. (hey look I can be snarky too)
@teragon I know he didnt ruin the character man. But its Hollywood. And you usually only get one shot at making something great, otherwise its dead and buried. Yeah of course, if I want to see Superman kick ass, I could always pick up a comic. Thats the thing though, Im a fan of film as a medium. I want the filmmakers to evoke emotions and feelings when Im watching a movie, that I cant get from a comic book. That sense of awe and scale. Sometimes I can, but it has to be REALLY well done, and lets face it, not all comics are all that well done. Im not saying it ruined my childhood at all, and I think thats a different take on it, but when someone has the reins to a franchise and this is what they put out? Its obvious that they dont get the character and dont deserve to be in charge. Trust me man, I WANT DC to do well. I love Superman. I just finished watching Justice League Unlimited on Netflix, and dear god. With a fraction of the time and budget of a couple episodes, its better than what ZS and his crew can do with a truckload of money and years to work on it.
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I don't think he was blowing it out of proportion as such Snikt - you did say that ZS can't do anything right. You have previously stated there are parts of the films you enjoy, so perhaps you were exaggerating, which is fair enough.

However, the more we butt heads, the more I understand the frustrations, as much as it does frustrate me/Teragon/Mola etc when yourself and many others express such hatred for something we find enjoyable - but your whole response there to Teragon was almost exactly what I was gearing up to write, because I totally understand that you want your version on the big screen, and based on that alone I understand the anger.

But as you've popped at me before, you already know I tend to get my back up at the constant bombardment against Zack/WB/Henry Cavill/the story/DC itself etc (cos I'm such a fanboy ;) ) and I just think thats what getting to others here too, and it absolutely isn't just you of course, you're in the majority.

With all that said no one is going to start acting different probably, but let's not get our knickers in twists over this everyone. Far more enjoyable to come here and discuss the content/what we like/dont/how we'd change it, rather than fixate on fault and vitriol isn't it. I do notice that many, many detractors don't tend to put much thought into how to change things (in ways that would work), which is weird because they obviously feel passionate about this stuff. Though obviously the complaints are cathartic, which makes sense too.

Run out of things to say now, so...

buddy_christ.jpg
 
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I think its frustrating for all involved. Whether for or against. To me personally, its not about trend or the majority rule. To me its damn upsetting. I literally got to a point with mos that i found myself trying to convince myself to like what i seen because i am such a superman/DC fan. And that is NEVER a good thing. I guess also knowing how much time and money were flushed toward these films is why i take it as an insult. And the majority do and rightfully so. The majority of the time we can take it on the chin or even defend something if it has enough elements that work. Poor acting but great storytelling or a major plot hole but wow was the acting great and everything else spectacularly done. Example obviously. But in all honesty, these films have so many misses and fails that its really hard to read any great things about them. I personally feel when i see something said thats great about the films if its clearly not, i feel sorry for that person almost like the wool was pulled over their eyes or they are locked into some drone like state. You'll never please anyone. You will have dislike that stretches to pure hatred even. Just like, liking stretched to love.

This business has been booming for decades and there are a lot of people in this business that have the love and have the knowledge of a problem. Whether it be the writer the director the editor or the producer, i feel they knew it was a dud and they would cash in on the name and the fans like us to line their pockets.

Yeah some people would have kept their mouths shut. But you cant tell me a great director would not have known that these movies were missing something and were added with something not wanted nor needed.

Debating will never stop. But i truly feel that even the people that defend bvs and mos, deep down if they are hinest with themselves, they would see and agree on most slander slung its way...

I dont think some ppl realise how hurtful and how much it angers a true DC fan to have to garbage all over these films. Its not like we were hoping they would suck. But mire like we wont go along with the BS and sit there and put a polished turd on a pedestal.

I dont think its about majority rule. I think its about being honest with yourself and with what we were given all things considered. And i do mean ALL things..
 
Nostalgic said:
Debating will never stop. But i truly feel that even the people that defend bvs and mos, deep down if they are hinest with themselves, they would see and agree on most slander slung its way...

I dont think some ppl realise how hurtful and how much it angers a true DC fan to have to garbage all over these films. Its not like we were hoping they would suck. But mire like we wont go along with the BS and sit there and put a polished turd on a pedestal.

I dont think its about majority rule. I think its about being honest with yourself and with what we were given all things considered. And i do mean ALL things..
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Right up to that point I had no problem with your opinions - I certainly at no point had the thought "well, this person doesn't enjoy the version I like, so he must not be much of a fan". Don't tell people what they do and don't like, just don't.

"True fan" - such bull.

If a person has only ever read the New 52 Superman. And if they enjoyed it, and feel connected to that character. They know there are some issues with some of the comics, the story isn't great sometimes and the character occasionally is slightly uneven. They decide from that point to be a fan of Superman. They are a "true fan". They could hate every single other version of the character - they are still a "true fan". You are a "true fan". So am I.

Stop trying to condense such a large, complex world of enjoyment of hundreds of iterations of an idea into such a simple minded box, please.

No one believes any of these films are perfection. Neither is 1978 Superman. Neither is All Star Superman. Everything is flawed.
 
Fawbish said:
Right up to that point I had no problem with your opinions - I certainly at no point had the thought "well, this person doesn't enjoy the version I like, so he must not be much of a fan". Don't tell people what they do and don't like, just don't.

"True fan" - such bull.

If a person has only ever read the New 52 Superman. And if they enjoyed it, and feel connected to that character. They know there are some issues with some of the comics, the story isn't great sometimes and the character occasionally is slightly uneven. They decide from that point to be a fan of Superman. They are a "true fan". They could hate every single other version of the character - they are still a "true fan". You are a "true fan". So am I.

Stop trying to condense such a large, complex world of enjoyment of hundreds of iterations of an idea into such a simple minded box, please.

No one believes any of these films are perfection. Neither is 1978 Superman. Neither is All Star Superman. Everything is flawed.
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Exactly why i stated you can never please anyone. There will always be some form of a gripe. But you clearly enjoyed cavill and the portrayed superman and it would seem both movies. Hence why i can see how agitated this all seems to be making you. The movie was a box office flop for many many reasons. Many reasons that have been put foward in discussion and have been a topic of debate.

Would you be willing to say that cavill played superman better than anyone could and no one could give a better perdormance. Would you say that the version of clark that was given was an awesome interpretation and that they put time and energy into getting it right. Would you say the direction of the film was well excecuted. Would you say that you cant help but to invest into the main charachters upon watching the films. Would you say that this franchise has been well handled and respected and that the money that went into it was well spent and that every action scene had you watching in awe?

As a DC fan which you say we both are, can you say that?

Because i can say that it wasnt. I can say that it was insulting and i can say that it was an absolute flop. I can say that about the acting all the way to the plot and visual effects and i have no problem in saying that what so ever.

There is no way on earth i will go on record applauding the abomination of a film that was delivered.

Whether anyone is with me or not.
Thats how i feel and its how the majority feel and its like i said, rightfully so...

Oh and how did i tell you what you do and do not like ?

Thats just ignorant reading
 
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Nostalgic said:
Exactly why i stated you can never please anyone. There will always be some form of a gripe. But you clearly enjoyed cavill and the portrayed superman and it would seem both movies. Hence why i can see how agitated this all seems to be making you. The movie was a box office flop for many many reasons. Many reasons that have been put foward in discussion and have been a topic of debate.

Would you be willing to say that cavill played superman better than anyone could and no one could give a better perdormance.

Why would I be able to say that? I can't predict how good or bad an actor will be in a future Superman role. Cavill to me is a great performer for the type of role he is playing, which is a more serious take on Superman and Clark Kent. I won't say it's perfect though, there are moments that could be better. I think he displays some wonderful raw emotion though.

Would you say that the version of clark that was given was an awesome interpretation and that they put time and energy into getting it right.

I think a lot of time and energy was put into getting it right for this interpretation - I think the Clark in the DCEU is a great, selfless guy who is interested in helping the world. I also think the burden of what he can do/can't do/should do/shouldn't do weighs heavily upon him and I enjoy seeing him figure it all out.

Would you say the direction of the film was well excecuted. Would you say that you cant help but to invest into the main charachters upon watching the films. Would you say that this franchise has been well handled and respected and that the money that went into it was well spent and that every action scene had you watching in awe?

I think both MoS and BvS (UE) are well directed films, with a penchant for pervading themes and visual metaphor that is pleasing to me personally. I am invested in the characters of the films, yes, but not all of them. Lois Lane is pretty well done but far from amazing. I think this interpretation has been well handled as they've laid out their story, yes. Now, franchise? Perhaps not so much. If you wanted a money machine, it actually doesn't make too much sense to take risks - and yet they have. They haven't played it safe and given us yet another cookie cutter, jokes throughout film (not that that is the only way to go, but seems to be the go to) - though I understand a lot of people would enjoy that more, and that's fine. I think the action scenes have all be great to be honest, with perhaps the exception of the fight against the world engine - and that was more to do with what it was, not it's execution. Superman walking out of the scout ship with his suit on for the first time, attempting to fly, and then actually taking off fully with his fist on the ground, that score and those visuals? I think that alone beats the living crap out of most action scenes I've enjoyed in superhero cinema. And that is literally only Superman learning to fly. Not every scene has me in awe, but does it have to?? I've never ever watched a film expecting every action scene to blow me away, thats insanely unrealistic. (and then I watched The Raid. Sick!)

As a DC fan which you say we both are, can you say that?

^ above

Because i can say that it wasnt. I can say that it was insulting and i can say that it was an absolute flop. I can say that about the acting all the way to the plot and visual effects and i have no problem in saying that what so ever.

There is no way on earth i will go on record applauding the abomination of a film that was delivered.

Whether anyone is with me or not.
Thats how i feel and its how the majority feel and its like i said, rightfully so...
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I'm genuinely sorry that you don't enjoy this interpretation. But I also believe it's bloody silly to claim that anyone that does is having the wool pulled over their eyes. That is what agitates me, man. Don't dismiss other peoples enjoyment. Everyone loves to believe that they're the one true claimant to a single truth.

Genuine interest, what's your favourite comic run/story with Supes? I'd be interested in knowing which interpretation is your bread and butter. And no, I'm not trying to get clever etc, just trying to bring the conversation into some better territory. I've just started reading Birthright again after a few years, and I'm checking out For All Seasons for the first time (don't know how I missed it)

Or if not comics, tv show/cartoon etc.
 
Fawbish said:
I'm genuinely sorry that you don't enjoy this interpretation. But I also believe it's bloody silly to claim that anyone that does is having the wool pulled over their eyes.

Genuine interest, what's your favourite comic run/story with Supes? I'd be interested in knowing which interpretation is your bread and butter. And no, I'm not trying to get clever etc, just trying to bring the conversation into some better territory. I've just started reading Birthright again after a few years, and I'm checking out For All Seasons for the first time (don't know how I missed it)

Or if not comics, tv show/cartoon etc.
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I don't really dislike any version of supes aside from Dean Cain and Cavill. You are right it being silly to say everyone is having the wool pulled over their eyes. I was meaning that in terms of anyone who would say it was a great flick to the point of it being absolutely knocked out of the park. More directed to the people that are placing the flick in iconic epic and really high regard. It just clearly isnt.
I really enjoy the score, and at first i was not happy they changed it and i couldn't latch onto it. But it is a score that has grown on me and you do think cavill supes as soon as you hear it. I just wish, like many that it turned out a lot better as a flick.

As for flicks, 78 supes CR will always be superman to me. Re watching those films was insane to see how crap the effects were and the storyline but the investment into the charachter is still there and anyone with kids would agree with me that CR still holds up. As clark and as supes with all the bodgey plot lines and crap effects he still embodies both superman and clark.

Comics are different for me. I have very little dislike toward any version of supes. And they have come a long way and have made a lot of changes, some good and some not so good, but in trying to escape in film i really wish these flicks could have captured some of that magic...

I mean no mallice to you're views...
And i appreciate the fact of you trying to bring the convo into better territory :thumbsup
 
Axlotl said:
That's the DEFINITION.

Really disappointed that you didn't notice "trendily throwing the "trendy" word in there."
I was really proud of that...
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Interpretation as in I wasn't implying that you or any one else here are parroting others, I was merely saying it seems to be a trend nowadays to personally insult certain directors such as Snyder, Abrams, Fieg, etc and since movies seem to be made more by committee now it's silly to point out one person as the cause of every fault. This was not aimed specifically at you and I apologize for any offense.

Axlotl said:
*than.
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Ha! I actually had typed "than" and then changed it. It was a long day...so much for my superiority. ;)
 
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Mola Rob said:
Ha! I actually had typed "than" and then changed it. It was a long day...so much for my superiority. ;)
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Well, I'm not as drunk or argumentative today as I was last night (actually kinda hung over) so I just want to say no hard feelings, Mola Rob.
Hope you have a better day today than I'm having. :)
 
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