Game of Thrones

@KhalDrogo Yeah Im kind of in the same realm of thinking, especially regarding Sansa and Arya. I cant believe that they actually made Arya believe and fall into littlefingers trap. Kinda irritated about that, and also irritated that it was that easy to kill a dragon. Just one ice lance. Gimme a break. It was cool seeing drogon wreck house and light everything up, but cmon. One shotted? Kinda takes away from the mythos of the dragons being badass and nigh unstoppable. But yeah, gendry running to the wall, getting a raven to dany, then her getting there in time, kinda nuts. Also, the hound just provoked them? They would have been fine if he wasnt throwing rocks...maybe I missed something, I was pretty drunk while watching it and its starting to wear off now... Someone care to fill me in?
 
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Snikt;4302064[I said:
][/I] Also, the hound just provoked them? They would have been fine if he wasnt throwing rocks...maybe I missed something, I was pretty drunk while watching it and its starting to wear off now... Someone care to fill me in?

The rock skidding across the ice indicated the water had frozen again.
 
I liked the Hound provoking them. That felt in character. I didn't like that nobody was smart enough to break the damn ice. He was holding s bloody warhammer. Why not just break the ice?!?! There was a lot of stuff like that in the episode.

--EDIT--

Other examples (now that I'm at a PC)

1. You need a walking dead guy, right? You're in the North, north of the Wall, even, where literally every person who dies is going to turn into a wight unless you burn them. You've just tangled with an undead bear, and he killed...I dunno, Steve. Whoever the wildling expendable was. Why not just wait a night for him to turn? You can tie him up, even, before he turns, and then just...take him back. Like, literally, there was the sequence where they're all on the island in the middle of the lake, and Thoros has died, and they say "Oh, we have to burn him or he'll turn." WHY DIDN'T YOU THINK OF THAT BEFORE?! This goes well beyond the kind of "Why didn't they just fly on an eagle and drop the ring in" bit from LOTR. Way, way beyond.

2. Breaking the ice. This was a big one for me. We've already established that, apparently, the dead can't float and can't march underwater (for some reason). Ok, fine. The Hound threw the rock and showed the dead they could walk on the ice. Funny moment, also fine. BREAK THE ICE, DUMMY.

3. Jon says "FALL BACK!" My wife and I, in unison, say "TO WHERE?!"

There were other issues with the episode, too, but they were of a different nature. I'll post about that later.
 
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There was a lot of stuff like that in the episode.
I don't know if attempting to break the ice that surrounded them was feasible before they were swarmed? Perhaps they could have had a throwing rota to maintain the break as soon as it was an option. I personally didn't have a problem with this aspect of the story but there are moments that give me concern for how coming episodes might be handled. Your wight point is, eh... on point. And I'm sure the speedy intervention by Daenerys could have been written any number of ways more convincingly than we saw.

It's odd that this season the production had extra time and fewer episodes (that include large set pieces to take pressure off much of the writing) and yet there's perhaps an attitude of 'that'll do' creeping in to more important areas. It's shame, the attention to detail and finely crafted narrative is generally the hallmark of the show, it would be a shame to drop the ball on the end run

That said, I thoroughly enjoyed the spectacle and implications of the episode, The banter and resulting camaraderie between the wight hunting crew was great too and added much. So many shows can't get this relatability right with even one character let alone an ensemble.
 
Re: the ease of Viserion's death, I think it's safe to say it was the Night King's magic that slew the dragon, more than the hit from the ice javelin... dragons are creatures of magic, and getting hit by the NK's weapon disrupted the magic that made Viserion what he was.
 
I'm also very disappointed by the Arya/Sansa thing. I can't get past Arya being duped, or the two of them playing Littlefinger's game for him. Ugh.
 
Westeros must be really small. :p

Wormholes.

I don't know if attempting to break the ice that surrounded them was feasible before they were swarmed? Perhaps they could have had a throwing rota to maintain the break as soon as it was an option. I personally didn't have a problem with this aspect of the story but there are moments that give me concern for how coming episodes might be handled. Your wight point is, eh... on point. And I'm sure the speedy intervention by Daenerys could have been written any number of ways more convincingly than we saw.

It's odd that this season the production had extra time and fewer episodes (that include large set pieces to take pressure off much of the writing) and yet there's perhaps an attitude of 'that'll do' creeping in to more important areas. It's shame, the attention to detail and finely crafted narrative is generally the hallmark of the show, it would be a shame to drop the ball on the end run

That said, I thoroughly enjoyed the spectacle and implications of the episode, The banter and resulting camaraderie between the wight hunting crew was great too and added much. So many shows can't get this relatability right with even one character let alone an ensemble.

Yeah, I mean, on the whole, the spectacle was great, as penultimate episodes always are. But as with Battle of the Bastards, I found the characters to simply turn stupid for the sake of creating what the showrunners think is a cool scene. I hate that. I hate when character gives way to spectacle.

There were two other things I REALLY hated about this episode, and they're somewhat related.

1. The Sansa/Arya feud. This is total bull****. I'm sorry, but it is. The show has not earned this, and Arya just looks like an idiot. The show also is doing a lousy job of laying the groundwork for this to be a long con on Littlefinger, mostly because it shows Arya and Sansa arguing alone, and never having, say, Littlefinger smirking in the background. None of this is to say that such a conflict couldn't work, but they needed more time and to spend much more of it showing the breakdown of their relationship and other things eroding their trust. Then, at least, it would be believable, if also frustrating. As it stands, it just looks like "Hey, we need these two to have some conflict so we can stretch this out, so...uh....make 'em fight about some stupid crap. K? Cool."

2. Jon's fakeout "death." Dude. Don't even. You know why people have "plot armor" at this point? Because we have invested a TON of time into them narratively speaking. To kill them now isn't just some Whedonesque out-of-left-field thing that will pay dividends down the road. There IS no "down the road." That means that a character's death must serve a narrative purpose, and Jon snuffing it in the frozen lake doesn't meet that definition. Jon dying in this episode at all doesn't meet that definition. Other characters could've died, though. Jorah, Tormund, Beric (oh man, so much Beric), Thoros (RIP), but definitely not Jon, probably not The Hound, and most likely not Gendry who only just resurfaced. But the show -- with the exception of Tormund and Thoros -- doesn't even try to make me think they're gonna die. It's too busy trying to fake me out by having Jon plunge into the icy waters of death...only to SOMEHOW FLOAT BECAUSE THAT'S HOW METAL ARMOR AND HEAVY FURS WORK, RIGHT and pull himself up out of the ice. Which, also, every zombie around him just kinda lets him do. You wanna make me fear for a character? Put Tyrion and Cersei alone in a room together, and have Jaime hurrying to meet them. NOW I'm worried. Jon in the ice lake? GTFO with that nonsense. Don't even try, man.

So, how are these two things related. Well, they're related in three ways. First, they stretch out the time, which is stupid, because we're running out of time, not trying to fill it with pointless crap. Second, they require the characters to act contrary to who we know they are or at least who they're supposed to be. Jon's supposed to be a good commander, no? Then why does he repeatedly make tactical blunders like this? Arya is supposed to be a trained assassin, who should be able to smell a con when it's happening. So why is she buying into this "conveniently discovered" letter?! Finally, all of these things happen in service to something other than the characters or the narrative. They're done to set up a cool scene, for example, or to introduce a complication so that people wonder where we're headed when we know damn well where we're headed. Like, honestly, I flat out do not believe Arya will kill Sansa. I just don't. It doesn't fit the character, it doesn't fit the overall narrative, and the show hasn't effectively sold it as a real decision for them. So, as with Jon in the ice lake, it's just...not believable. All it elicits from me is a massive eyeroll.

I hate when writers try to show off how clever they are. It very rarely works, and usually because they're actually showing off instead of letting the work speak for itself. Sometimes this takes the form of writers trying to frustrate audience expectations -- usually expectations they themselves have built up over time. They'll throw in a twist to "keep the audience guessing," in spite of having already led the audience to the very point where they are, and in a way that audience members have been able to guess the actual outcome already. Or they'll try to throw the audience off the scent at least, by introducing a complication. But the problem is that these efforts are often poorly executed, and end up not working. That's how I think this episode played out. They wanted to introduce some cool scenes and some plot complications, but how they got to those points was really poorly executed.

Re: the ease of Viserion's death, I think it's safe to say it was the Night King's magic that slew the dragon, more than the hit from the ice javelin... dragons are creatures of magic, and getting hit by the NK's weapon disrupted the magic that made Viserion what he was.

Yeah, the ice spear thing...it's no just a spear of ice. It's a spear of magic undead evil ice +2/+5 vs. Dragons. In seriousness, though, this didn't bother me at all.
 
Lots of talk going on at other forums how the heck both a Raven got to Dragonstone and Dany got North of the wall via Dragon all within approximately 24 hours....

Magic teleportation? Actually this seasons been full of that.

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Lots of talk going on at other forums how the heck both a Raven got to Dragonstone and Dany got North of the wall via Dragon all within approximately 24 hours....

Magic teleportation? Actually this seasons been full of that.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I keep saying it: wormholes.
 
IMG_20170821_072353.jpg
 
I was thinking about the dragon air lift and I think it would make more sense for maybe Jorah to be the one fighting off the walkers to let them escape.
For one, you know Jon isn't gonna die so its kinda silly to put him in danger again. Jorah, though, your not sure. Maybe he feels he will sacrifice himself so Dany and the boys can leave. He can still be rescued by Benjen. Or maybe Tormund could do it. IDK, it think anyone other than Jon would have been a little better.
 
I think Arya is just letting Sansa know that they've both grown, but the path Sansa took was the unloyal one.

Arya did her training for family, Sansa was doing it to stay alive.

Kinda like how Arya had plenty of opportunities to kill Tywin Lannister while working for him, even at the cost of her own life, but never did?


Sorry, but the feuding sisters storyline is just dumb.
 
Re: the ease of Viserion's death, I think it's safe to say it was the Night King's magic that slew the dragon, more than the hit from the ice javelin... dragons are creatures of magic, and getting hit by the NK's weapon disrupted the magic that made Viserion what he was.
Yeah, I wish it was more eventful rather than just having him get handed a spear then him chucking it at Viserion. I dunno, I wish he would have imbued it visually, I love the dragons, and dragonlore, I like that they are unstoppable juggernauts and dont want them to die easily. I like the idea of dragons being danys trump(sorry) card that can defeat anyone.

But Dan nailed it regarding the Arya/Sansa thing. Im surprised because the writers this episode were also the creators of the show, so that was disappointing.
 
I'm just really disappointed in the Sansa\Arya storyline. Arya was there at King's Landing. She knows how Cersei acts. If she was able to see Sansa at her father's execution, then she should've seen how she was acting, not just how she was dressed. Plus, Arya was at Harrenhal with Tywin and Littlefinger. She knew all about the plans they had, which should have made her reaction to Sansa's explanation much more rational than it was.

And Sansa...what the hell? Back to listening to Littlefinger? After we've seen you demonstrate that you see him and his "scheming" coming from a mile away? I feel like the show just took several steps back in how they're treating her character.

I also don't understand the stryfe they're trying to create between Daenerys and Tyrion. Just really seemed out of nowhere with his name a successor stuff. Really seems weird.

And then those just in the nick of time rescues. Jeez. Enough already. Don't even get me started on Jon surviving his ice bath. This whole episode was just really a test of my suspension of disbelief. I've always been willing to give them wide latitude, but I feel a bit taken advantage of now.

I still believe that Arya is playing Baelish... and she may have got Sansa to work with her on it.

Perhaps not..I guess we'll see. But in any event I feel like these sisters needed to say these things to one another... if only to clear the air.

With the absolute breakneck pace of this season I'm not surprised that the dragons showed up in the very same episode. If this were the first instance of super quick arrivals and nick-of-time deus ex style rescues I'd complain, but this whole season has been like that.

I want to know how John was able to be bitten by those fiends and not turn.
 
I definitely think Sansa and Arya need to have a long sit down and talk about what each has been through since season 1. Jon and Sansa got to do it. They could've done the same for these two and in the same manner. I think it would make more sense then where they're at now. Neither really has any clue what the other has been through. All they had was that brief acknowledgement in the crypts. Not good enough for me.

And now that I think about it, as soon as Daenerys and the dragons showed up, why didn't Jon signal to her to focus the dragon fire on the Night's King and other White Walkers? There were 3 dragons. 2 could've been burning the dead to save the party and one could've focused on the real enemy. Ugh. So stupid.
 
I liked the Hound provoking them. That felt in character. I didn't like that nobody was smart enough to break the damn ice. He was holding s bloody warhammer. Why not just break the ice?!?! There was a lot of stuff like that in the episode.

--EDIT--

Other examples (now that I'm at a PC)

1. You need a walking dead guy, right? You're in the North, north of the Wall, even, where literally every person who dies is going to turn into a wight unless you burn them. You've just tangled with an undead bear, and he killed...I dunno, Steve. Whoever the wildling expendable was. Why not just wait a night for him to turn? You can tie him up, even, before he turns, and then just...take him back. Like, literally, there was the sequence where they're all on the island in the middle of the lake, and Thoros has died, and they say "Oh, we have to burn him or he'll turn." WHY DIDN'T YOU THINK OF THAT BEFORE?! This goes well beyond the kind of "Why didn't they just fly on an eagle and drop the ring in" bit from LOTR. Way, way beyond.

2. Breaking the ice. This was a big one for me. We've already established that, apparently, the dead can't float and can't march underwater (for some reason). Ok, fine. The Hound threw the rock and showed the dead they could walk on the ice. Funny moment, also fine. BREAK THE ICE, DUMMY.

3. Jon says "FALL BACK!" My wife and I, in unison, say "TO WHERE?!"

There were other issues with the episode, too, but they were of a different nature. I'll post about that later.


All excellent points.

I feel like this episode is almost a throw away because they want to get everything set up for the cliffhanger next week. :-/
 
The only hat-tip to the notion that they're conning the con man himself is the bit where he says to Sansa "You should get Brienne involved for you," and then literally the next thing she does is say "Brienne, go to King's Landing to represent me." But even that is shaky, because Littlefinger will know Brienne left after he advised Sansa to the contrary, and be all "WTF? Why aren't you listening to me--OH CRAP YOU'RE SETTING ME UP."

Plus Chekhov's Dagger keeps floating around from Stark to Stark.

- - - Updated - - -

All excellent points.

I feel like this episode is almost a throw away because they want to get everything set up for the cliffhanger next week. :-/

Yeah, that's part of it. And because they can't have a huge, climactic battle between the various Iron Throne factions, either, so you get the commando mission (which is still deeply stupid -- JUST TAKE YOUR NEWLY UNDEAD REDSHIRT AND GO HOME!!!) plus dragon close-air support, which now gives the Night's King his own ice dragon, and....uh....yeah. Episode done. Oh, also some shipping, and some stupid Arya/Sansa friction.
 
I predicted Thoros would die and I was right on that. I also didn't know who else would die and I fee like the writers were thinking:

You obviously can't kill Jon.
You cant kill Hound cause he needs to battle the Mountain.
You could kill Tormund but he is the leader of the Wildlings so he should stay (so they just show him in trouble but get saved)
You could kill Gendry but he just got back so he wasnt even in play.
I don't think they could kill Jorah because he means too much now especially with this rift between Dany and Tyrion.
You could kill Beric but he's died before so taking our Thoros and leaving Beric on his last life is thew way to go.
 
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