Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Subscribe
  1. SethS's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2016
    From
    Los Angeles
    Messages
    2,757
    Apr 7, 2018, 2:28 PM - Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #1

    After confusing myself about what I was seeing, and consulting the super-detailed research done by @scottjua here: https://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=144206
    ...I decided to compare some apples to apples and ask what you all see.

    There's three key details to determining which model of Graflex you're looking at-- the bottom stamp, the type of socket pins, and the style of glass eyes/buttons. While each movie likely uses multiple Graflexes, and the buttons and eyes are swappable, I want to try and pin down as best as possible what is being used where.

    First-- Scott's helpful research:




    For ANH we only have three details that can be made out-- an early Folmer strip-knurled button on the stunt saber, the eye on the Luke/Leia blackshirt promo pic, and the full-knurled button from the toe pic.



    Roger Christian claims "six or so" belt-hangers made, but outside of the button on the stunt, everything seems to be the same so that's hard to confirm. It's not out of line to assume in the "box of parts" Christian found that the strip-knurled button may have been in the mix as they mostly appeared on early Folmers. It seems that the full-knurled buttons came early enough that they appear on most every model save for the telegraph model.

    Verdict: ANH uses an early Folmer for the belthanger.

    ESB doesn't tip its hand much in terms of super close up details, save for this one we all know and love:



    Given what we can make out "NEW YORK" in the engraving, this makes this model an early Folmer as it was the only model to spell out New York. All of the buttons used on all the variants are full-knurled.

    Because ESB used multiple belt-hangers and stunts, and we don't know if the Graflexes all came from the same lot or were sourced from various places, it's impossible to know if every single one was the same model. But for sanity's sake, looking at this one example from a short-bladed stunt...

    Verdict: ESB uses at least one early Folmer.

    For TFA two of the key details are altered-- the eye is ground down to brass, and the endcap is covered. Additionally, there are no super-clear definitive shots of the pins. The Disney Launch Bay versions are made by the TFA prop team, and are Graflex inc versions, leading us to assume the TFA onscreen Graflexes are as well.

    But in comparing these two shots with Scott's images....



    ...I feel like they could be Graflex Inc. or late Folmers.

    Verdict: Unknown! Help!

    Similarly, in TLJ, the glass eye has been modified and the endcap is obscured. There's a ton of profile shots, but not many that show the eye at an angle to judge the bezel. But I think the pins show enough detail to be called as Graflex Inc.



    While the "white-glove" Graflex can't be guaranteed as being used onscreen, it certainly looks identical in every other way.

    One outlier-- this TLJ display version:

    Attachment 808009

    From some angles that looks like a Graflex Inc eye, while from others, an early Folmer. The pins are Graflex Inc., and again there's no way to confirm this one was used onscreen, but why can't me eye make up its mind?

    Verdict: TLJ most likely uses Graflex Inc versions.

    If anyone disagrees or has more confirmations, PLEASE speak up! Especially about TFA.
  2. Vintage RPF Member RPF Premium Member teecrooz's Avatar
    Member Since
    Mar 2002
    Messages
    2,132
    Apr 7, 2018, 2:38 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #2

    Don’t forget surface finish. Some Folmers have a shinier finish.

    There is also another tell that’s typical of an early Folmer, but I don’t think it’s ever been discussed on the boards or fb, so I won’t be the one to mention it.
  3. AnubisGuard's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2001
    Messages
    994
    Apr 7, 2018, 2:56 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #3

    The vintage 3-cell I have has the Folmer eye and bottom but the tip ring pins. Should we assume parts swapping on the part of the owner (it was attached to a well-used camera when I bought it), or we're there Folmers with the tipped pins?
  4. SethS's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2016
    From
    Los Angeles
    Messages
    2,757
    Apr 7, 2018, 3:48 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #4

    teecrooz said: View Post
    Don’t forget surface finish. Some Folmers have a shinier finish.

    There is also another tell that’s typical of an early Folmer, but I don’t think it’s ever been discussed on the boards or fb, so I won’t be the one to mention it.
    Does the finish change specifically between models? I thought there were variations for each. As for the unnamed tell-- I think it's mentioned in Scott's thread and the guide... if not I'm intrigued!

    AnubisGuard said: View Post
    The vintage 3-cell I have has the Folmer eye and bottom but the tip ring pins. Should we assume parts swapping on the part of the owner (it was attached to a well-used camera when I bought it), or we're there Folmers with the tipped pins?
    Unless it's NOS I'd always assume the possibility of swapping parts--especially if it's coming of a camera. Photographers love to get new gear and jury-rig stuff.
  5. AnubisGuard's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2001
    Messages
    994
    Apr 7, 2018, 3:59 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #5

    SethS said: View Post
    Does the finish change specifically between models? I thought there were variations for each. As for the unnamed tell-- I think it's mentioned in Scott's thread and the guide... if not I'm intrigued!



    Unless it's NOS I'd always assume the possibility of swapping parts--especially if it's coming of a camera. Photographers love to get new gear and jury-rig stuff.
    The finish on my Folmer is substantially shinier than on my two Graflex Inc. 2-cells. They almost look matte by comparison. (That's another thing that made me wonder about parts swapping – the finish is consistent across all the parts, which makes me think it's all Folmer. But then why the pns?)
  6. Vintage RPF Member RPF Premium Member teecrooz's Avatar
    Member Since
    Mar 2002
    Messages
    2,132
    Apr 7, 2018, 4:15 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #6

    SethS said: View Post
    Does the finish change specifically between models? I thought there were variations for each. As for the unnamed tell-- I think it's mentioned in Scott's thread and the guide... if not I'm intrigued!
    There is a certain Folmer finish that doesn’t exist for an Inc.

    If you were thinking of the thin/thick edge roll on the end cap, that is not the one I was hinting at. There is another...
  7. RPF Premium Member Anakin Starkiller's Avatar
    Member Since
    Feb 2001
    From
    Rochester, NY
    Messages
    2,435
    Apr 7, 2018, 4:48 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #7

    One of the ESB sabers (I think the one that lost it's top button and then became the ranch saber) has a strip knurl button at top to start with.
  8. SethS's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2016
    From
    Los Angeles
    Messages
    2,757
    Apr 7, 2018, 5:04 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #8

    teecrooz said: View Post
    There is a certain Folmer finish that doesn’t exist for an Inc.

    If you were thinking of the thin/thick edge roll on the end cap, that is not the one I was hinting at. There is another...
    WELL... I know what rest of my weekend will now be...

    Anakin Starkiller said: View Post
    One of the ESB sabers (I think the one that lost it's top button and then became the ranch saber) has a strip knurl button at top to start with.
    Yes-- it's actually the short blades stunt / Wampa cave! The bottom of which was added to the Dagobah upper.
  9. RPF Premium Member halliwax's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2013
    From
    Fairhaven, MA
    Messages
    10,981
    Apr 7, 2018, 5:46 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #9

    SethS said: View Post
    WELL... I know what rest of my weekend will now be...
    You and me both buddy....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  10. Member Since
    Jan 2016
    Messages
    971
    Apr 7, 2018, 8:30 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #10

    Hey @teecrooz ! Is the tell you're thinking of the upper-half one or lower half one?

    I'd be willing to bet the guy that I bought my GRAFLEXes from 20+ years ago switched as many 2-CELLs to 3-CELLs that he could to sell them to me and as many other STAR WARS geeks that he could find looking for them. I kick myself a little for not snatching up the 2-CELLs he had too.

    I have a 3-CELL with smooth pins, thin knurled RED BUTTON, and the sharp-lipped flat-beveled GLASS EYE, ...but it has a GRAFLEX INC. 3-CELL BOTTOM. It even has the _____ in the _____ so I'm 99% certain it was either an Early Folmer 2-CELL, or something happened to its original 3-CELL bottom and one way or another it got swapped by my seller, or whoever he bought it from to sell to me.

    I can tell you with 100% certainty, my seller didn't know anything about which lightsaber had which specific model of GRAFLEX, nor their configurations partswise, other than it had to have a 3-CELL BOTTOM. My guess is that the tops I have came with the clamps I have for them, but there's no telling if the bottoms came with those particular tops from the factory.

    Good Luck on your quests @SethS and @halliwax ! May the FORCE fire you onto the true path.
  11. RPF Premium Member halliwax's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2013
    From
    Fairhaven, MA
    Messages
    10,981
    Apr 7, 2018, 8:31 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #11

    Ridire Firean said: View Post
    Hey @teecrooz ! Is the tell you're thinking of the upper-half one or lower half one?

    I'd be willing to bet the guy that I bought my GRAFLEXes from 20+ years ago switched as many 2-CELLs to 3-CELLs that he could to sell them to me and as many other STAR WARS geeks that he could find looking for them. I kick myself a little for not snatching up the 2-CELLs he had too.

    I have a 3-CELL with smooth pins, thin knurled RED BUTTON, and the sharp-lipped flat-beveled GLASS EYE, ...but it has a GRAFLEX INC. 3-CELL BOTTOM. It even has the _____ in the _____ so I'm 99% certain it was either an Early Folmer 2-CELL, or something happened to its original 3-CELL bottom and one way or another it got swapped by my seller, or whoever he bought it from to sell to me.

    I can tell you with 100% certainty, my seller didn't know anything about which lightsaber had which specific model of GRAFLEX, nor their configurations partswise, other than it had to have a 3-CELL BOTTOM. My guess is that the tops I have came with the clamps I have for them, but there's no telling if the bottoms came with those particular tops from the factory.

    Good Luck on your quests @SethS and @halliwax ! May the FORCE fire you onto the true path.
    Are you kidding me, I have no chance in hell figuring this out... lmao!!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  12. Member Since
    Jan 2016
    Messages
    971
    Apr 7, 2018, 8:48 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #12

    Sure you can, if what he's eluding to is what I'm thinking of, it's been mentioned here before.

    One thing I noticed a halfhour ago, that I've NEVER NOTICED BEFORE, is that I have two bulb holders that go left to right, and two that go right to left.

    My "Early Folmer" upper does have 3 distinct differences from the other 3 GRAFLEXes that I have. One has been mentioned before, the other two I'm not sure of. I just haven't seen enough "Early Folmers" to know if those are common distinctions, or just random mass-production variances on the one that I have.
  13. RPF Premium Member
    Member Since
    Dec 2007
    Messages
    603
    Apr 8, 2018, 11:29 AM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #13

    OK.

    The mystery of what other "tells" might be out there, as alluded to in this thread, prompted me to get out my original GRAFLEX flashes and take a look.

    In this line-up, going from left to right, the first 3 flashes are later flashes with stepped pins, non-blackened GRAFLEX lettering on the clamp, and brushed finishes. The last 3 flashes on the right-hand side are early flashes with chrome finishes, blackened GRAFLEX lettering on the clamp, and smooth pins:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	A264C823-10F8-412D-9A93-3D047DF4E4C3.jpeg 
Views:	46 
Size:	1.88 MB 
ID:	808207

    The difference in the finishes is easy to see in-person, between the early and the later flashes, but hard to see in photos. Here, a chrome early flash is on top and a later brushed finish is on the bottom:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	31CFCAB3-7C48-468D-8343-8E1E8DBA450A.jpeg 
Views:	35 
Size:	1.58 MB 
ID:	808208

    I did find a key difference between the early flashes and later flashes that has not been discussed before--and it has to do with the clamps. Specifically, it as to do with the post/pin in the hinge of the clamp lever. Is this the other "tell" being referred to?

    In the early flashes, with the blackened GRAFLEX writing on the clamp, the post used as the hinge pin in the clamp lever is a simple post with no head on it. In the later flashes, with no blackened GRAFLEX lettering on the clamp, the post used as the hinge pin is a traditional post with a flat-head on the top of the post (like a nail). You can see differences here in this quick photo, below...

    The early GRAFLEX is on top--with a simple post with no head on the top of the clamp lever hinge pin. The later GRAFLEX is on the bottom with the post with the large, flat (nail-like) head on the top of the clamp lever hinge pin:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DBCD123E-CE57-48F1-B81C-03616B89B9F2.jpeg 
Views:	40 
Size:	559.8 KB 
ID:	808209


    I found this difference in the clamp lever hinge pin posts to be uniform in all of my flashes with all early flashes having head-less clamp lever hinge pin posts and all later model flashes having flat-head hinge pin posts.

    Older model is on the bottom, here, and the newer model is on the top:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	5C438A75-7596-4321-B9EC-6B2BE3D2C91C.jpeg 
Views:	17 
Size:	1.26 MB 
ID:	808230

    Older is on the left, newer is on the right:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	3843C503-BA2E-4529-BA66-9BF3E6AC4E94.jpeg 
Views:	26 
Size:	1.18 MB 
ID:	808211
    Last edited by ALLEY; Apr 8, 2018 at 11:54 PM.
  14. Vintage RPF Member RPF Premium Member teecrooz's Avatar
    Member Since
    Mar 2002
    Messages
    2,132
    Apr 8, 2018, 11:47 AM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #14

    Thanks Alley! A detail overlooked by many, even all the replica makers who stamp theirs as an early Folmer and have straight pins and sharp bevels on the glass eyes.

    Obi-Wan used one of these clamps as did a certain Luke stunt, among others.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	616850B0-5341-47DB-A23A-B33C1D18DEB5.jpeg 
Views:	40 
Size:	23.8 KB 
ID:	808217   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2D111A36-6F8B-44A5-9A0D-9B675CD5A3AA.jpeg 
Views:	39 
Size:	1.76 MB 
ID:	808216  
  15. RPF Premium Member
    Member Since
    Dec 2007
    Messages
    603
    Apr 8, 2018, 12:02 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #15

    Yep.

    You can see the difference between the hinge pin posts here, in profile.

    The early model head-less hinge pin post is on the left and the later model flat-head hinge pin post is on the right:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	69D41AF6-8C7D-4475-890D-5BA159A7245D.jpeg 
Views:	56 
Size:	1.00 MB 
ID:	808220
  16. RPF Premium Member halliwax's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2013
    From
    Fairhaven, MA
    Messages
    10,981
    Apr 8, 2018, 12:08 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #16

    By god, I can rest! Lol thank you both for sharing this

    This is the first Iíve ever heard of or seen this, pretty cool!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  17. SethS's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2016
    From
    Los Angeles
    Messages
    2,757
    Apr 8, 2018, 12:34 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #17

    Holy crap
  18. Joek3rr's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2018
    Messages
    461
    Apr 8, 2018, 11:19 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #18

    So Graflex Inc.'s for sure then, for the Sequel Trilogy?
  19. SethS's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2016
    From
    Los Angeles
    Messages
    2,757
    Apr 9, 2018, 1:00 AM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #19

    I think so.
  20. Collectorchris's Avatar
    Member Since
    Nov 2015
    Messages
    186
    Apr 9, 2018, 8:22 AM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #20

    I don't know that this applies to the Graflex discussion totally as I have only read the first few entries. And I am not trying to be a wet blanket, but to nail down exact "Correct" parts on OT sabers may be very difficult to do, even with the excellent research that has already been done. I explain my thoughts below.

    I used to be a big collector of military rifles (specifically M1 Garand, M1 Carnine, M1911, M1903, M1903A3 (A4), and the M1917) and did a ton of research on factory new "Correct" and what happened during cleaning and refurbishment. Considering the Graflex Speed graphic was primarily a media and higher end camera during it's heyday, the flash was not considered to be that great a setup (from what I remember reading). I imagine that over the years some went to the shop with a camera for repair, and if a person owned more than one flash, parts may have been swapped occasionally. I would see this as being more common with the bottom/top's, button, and perhaps the glass eye. I doubt unless done by a shop, many people changed pins, if ever.

    What is probably more of a common occurrence is with the overlap in parts during the manufacturing process itself. Even still today much manufacturing is done out of parts bins. These bins are used until they need replenishing and if a swap happens there tends to be an overlap of parts during that manufacturing cycle. So while it is more common to see a certain parts grouping in high volume runs, when changes occur, you will see overlap. This could occur at any time with any part unless a parts is shown defective, the last inventory will be used and even mixed with new if small minor non-defective swapping occurs.

    I would think that it is entirely possible to see a later manufactured top mated to a late (early no PAT) bottom, new eye or button, or pin design and a pretty mixed bag of parts that would be really be hard to nail down exact time frames and parts without factory documentation. Not to mention the owners/shops swapping simple base parts over the years. as the Graflex was what maybe 20+ years (guessing) out of production by the time ANH was filmed?

    Fortunately in the world of surplus rifle collecting, especially Springfield, Winchester, Remington, Smith-Corona, etc... documentation was well maintained and researched very hard to gain the information available today. Not to mention each part was marked "stamped" with certain characters, fonts, numbers, etc... that make collecting in that world much easier. Not so much in the camera flash world. Everything is based on shape, profile, screen captions that can be hard to interpret.

    I don't know if that helps, and I certainly don't want to throw up a roadblock in researching. I do think it would be a tremendous undertaking to be able to absolutely identify the 100% correct parts of a Graflex used in the OT. Just throwing that out there for consideration.
  21. RPF Premium Member laszlo's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2001
    Messages
    361
    Apr 9, 2018, 8:41 AM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #21

    Joek3rr said: View Post
    So Graflex Inc.'s for sure then, for the Sequel Trilogy?
    I would assume mixed and matched parts throughout the sequel trilogy. The prop dept would have picked and chosen from all the units they acquired.
    I think a particular manufacturing era purity of parts is a crazy assumption! Just look at the individual parts and match those
  22. RPF Premium Member thd9791's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jul 2011
    From
    Buffalo, New York, United States
    Messages
    4,755
    Apr 9, 2018, 10:01 AM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #22

    I think I knew about the lever/clamp pin a few years ago, and its easier to spot for me than some of the others (like the two different thin knurled buttons)

    Honestly, think about us searching for Exactra's with specific boards inside. Production on a large scale like that.... its about functionality usually and not the look of the product, so this may be much harder for all of us
  23. xwingercrash's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2017
    Messages
    107
    Apr 9, 2018, 10:28 AM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #23

    Manufacturers and prop departments really should have more consideration for us enthusiasts/addicts...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  24. RPF Premium Member scottjua's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 2012
    From
    Plano, TX (Dallas)
    Messages
    2,648
    Apr 9, 2018, 10:51 AM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #24

    ANH: Could be early or patent folmer... there's no way to know unless images pop up showing the bottom can. Even still it could have been a mash up. The simple saber spinning bladed stunt had an early folmer thin knurl button on it... which COULD have been swapped from the hero prop... SOOOO... we don't know if the Hero was a folmer patent, with a long knurl button, or an early one that had the short knurl swapped out.

    As for many being made, I don't subscribe to Roger's memory on that for ANH. There's no evidence to support that at all. His recollections are easily debunked in some cases based on photographic evidence, call sheets for props, and the actual materials we now KNOW were used vs. his statements. I'm not calling him a liar, but I am saying his memory of something he was doing quick and dirty 40 years ago is muddied by history, AND fans feeding him theories and information over that time as well.

    For ANH, I can only confirm the one single hero prop. It's easily traceable throughout filming and post via photos. The pins are straight, but I can't see well enough to tell if they're early round top pins, or folmer patent half sharp top pins. There IS a difference that came into being some point in the transition.

    ESB: This gets much more complicated.

    There were at LEAST two hero belt hangers, and those have changed or been altered since filming. Couple that with the stunts, the dagobah, and the one that became the vader bladed stunt in ROTJ, you've got a lot going on.

    We know there's at least ONE bottom that was early folmer used in the wampa scene close up.

    The RANCH saber WAS one of the belt hanger heroes.... or at least the bottom can WAS. it's easily screen and photo matched. The rest of the ranch saber doesn't seem to match the rest of the secondary belt hanger hero from the clamp up. The ranch bottom can IS a folmer patent 100%. Soooo... the top and clamp being swapped out at some point, and then the new one being redressed with that horrible textured tape means, we have no clue where the original clamp and top went.

    on graflexes in general, the earlier flashes tended to have a more shiny surface finish, with the later ones having a pretty consistent brushed finish. The clamp stamping seems to have changed a little over time, and not exactly sure WHEN the letters started getting painted.

    TFA/TLJ: I don't give enough of a crap about those movies to delve into the props in detail.
    Last edited by scottjua; Apr 9, 2018 at 10:57 AM.
  25. RPF Premium Member halliwax's Avatar
    Member Since
    Dec 2013
    From
    Fairhaven, MA
    Messages
    10,981
    Apr 9, 2018, 3:59 PM - Re: Which Graflex is in Which Movie? #25

    scottjua said: View Post
    ANH: Could be early or patent folmer... there's no way to know unless images pop up showing the bottom can. Even still it could have been a mash up. The simple saber spinning bladed stunt had an early folmer thin knurl button on it... which COULD have been swapped from the hero prop... SOOOO... we don't know if the Hero was a folmer patent, with a long knurl button, or an early one that had the short knurl swapped out.

    As for many being made, I don't subscribe to Roger's memory on that for ANH. There's no evidence to support that at all. His recollections are easily debunked in some cases based on photographic evidence, call sheets for props, and the actual materials we now KNOW were used vs. his statements. I'm not calling him a liar, but I am saying his memory of something he was doing quick and dirty 40 years ago is muddied by history, AND fans feeding him theories and information over that time as well.

    For ANH, I can only confirm the one single hero prop. It's easily traceable throughout filming and post via photos. The pins are straight, but I can't see well enough to tell if they're early round top pins, or folmer patent half sharp top pins. There IS a difference that came into being some point in the transition.

    ESB: This gets much more complicated.

    There were at LEAST two hero belt hangers, and those have changed or been altered since filming. Couple that with the stunts, the dagobah, and the one that became the vader bladed stunt in ROTJ, you've got a lot going on.

    We know there's at least ONE bottom that was early folmer used in the wampa scene close up.

    The RANCH saber WAS one of the belt hanger heroes.... or at least the bottom can WAS. it's easily screen and photo matched. The rest of the ranch saber doesn't seem to match the rest of the secondary belt hanger hero from the clamp up. The ranch bottom can IS a folmer patent 100%. Soooo... the top and clamp being swapped out at some point, and then the new one being redressed with that horrible textured tape means, we have no clue where the original clamp and top went.

    on graflexes in general, the earlier flashes tended to have a more shiny surface finish, with the later ones having a pretty consistent brushed finish. The clamp stamping seems to have changed a little over time, and not exactly sure WHEN the letters started getting painted.

    TFA/TLJ: I don't give enough of a crap about those movies to delve into the props in detail.
    This is excellent information! I never knew about the 1 hero in ANH! Wicked!



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3463
    Last Post: Feb 10, 2018, 6:04 AM
  2. Replies: 7
    Last Post: Mar 7, 2017, 12:13 PM