Rian Johnson to write and direct a new trilogy of films.. (Star Wars Universe)
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Solo4114
Master Member
Honestly, I'm not that concerned with Ackbar's fate. I think hanging one's outrage hat on that issue (i.e., "OMG! They didn't even give Ackbar a proper funeral!!!") is pretty silly. They didn't give Admiral Raddus a proper funeral either, and he had about as much screen time (maybe more?) as Ackbar. The fact that Ackbar was used in the OT and Raddus was created for Rogue One doesn't change either's stature in the overall story. They're equally important and given equal screen time, and neither's fate is ever really dealt with beyond the strong implication that they both died.
I mean, go ahead and dislike TLJ for other reasons, like not effectively explaining Luke's motivation or at least not prepping the audience for it better, not handling the passage of time particularly well, or using a rather static and visually uninteresting "chase" in space if you want. Or complain about how, to you, the new Star Wars stuff feels like it doesn't have the "spirit" of the old Star Wars stuff, and has changed so much as to be unrecognizable.
But complaining about how Ackbar was handled is a pretty myopic view of the character that I suspect is heavily colored by nostalgia, internet memes, and the old EU. He's not that important a character to the story. If they name a ship after him in the next film, that ought to give him the amount of in-story respect the character deserves. Certainly, it'll track with established precedent.
I mean, go ahead and dislike TLJ for other reasons, like not effectively explaining Luke's motivation or at least not prepping the audience for it better, not handling the passage of time particularly well, or using a rather static and visually uninteresting "chase" in space if you want. Or complain about how, to you, the new Star Wars stuff feels like it doesn't have the "spirit" of the old Star Wars stuff, and has changed so much as to be unrecognizable.
But complaining about how Ackbar was handled is a pretty myopic view of the character that I suspect is heavily colored by nostalgia, internet memes, and the old EU. He's not that important a character to the story. If they name a ship after him in the next film, that ought to give him the amount of in-story respect the character deserves. Certainly, it'll track with established precedent.
cboath
Master Member
I actually thought Ackbar was there to lend weight to the situation.
Without Ackbar there, you have leia and a bunch of nobodies. Her daughter and the other lady who seemed up there with here were conviently off the bridge. Boom, bridge takes hit blasts people into space. OMG, the killed Leia....but wait...she's alive...whew, no big deal then. With him there, there's actual loss and weight as someone known and of some relevance just died. Seems as if it was used to make it a big deal, or at least a bigger deal. Not saying it was executed brilliantly or anything, but i think that was the intent. Though, with some of the dialog in flick, dumping anything related to the OT seems a possibility as well.
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As for the Streep thing, little to close to 4/1 for me to believe a shred of it at this point
Without Ackbar there, you have leia and a bunch of nobodies. Her daughter and the other lady who seemed up there with here were conviently off the bridge. Boom, bridge takes hit blasts people into space. OMG, the killed Leia....but wait...she's alive...whew, no big deal then. With him there, there's actual loss and weight as someone known and of some relevance just died. Seems as if it was used to make it a big deal, or at least a bigger deal. Not saying it was executed brilliantly or anything, but i think that was the intent. Though, with some of the dialog in flick, dumping anything related to the OT seems a possibility as well.
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As for the Streep thing, little to close to 4/1 for me to believe a shred of it at this point
Solo4114
Master Member
Eh, I don't thik it really adds weight. I mean, maybe a little if they'd actually pointed out "We lost Ackbar" or something, but I think it's pretty clear that the attack on the bridge is devastating and guts the command staff. Much the way that the attack on the hangar is devastating and guts the fighter complement and squadron and maintenance personnel.
They do acknowledge Ackbar was lost in the attack when they bring in Holdo in the film.
Solo4114
Master Member
Well there ya go, then. I've only seen the film once, though, and don't really remember the scene.
Mr Webber
Master Member
For mine, and I`m sure many others, its not that Ruin killed off Ackbar with zero acknowledgement that is the main issue rather he chose Admiral Purple Hair Oscars Dress to sacrifice themselves in the HyperKaze fiasco. Anyone with a sense of occasion and or an appreciation of the OT would have thought that Ackbar would be more appropriate choice. It may have even saved it from the disdain and ridicule that now follows it.
Mr Webber
Master Member
Yeah, sickening isnt it? I figure they think its the perfect defence for mediocrity but I doubt anyone but a few seriously buys it. You only have to follow the thousands of comments and opinions here to see it holds as much water as bumbling Finn`s goofy, puffy medbay costume
Who?
As much as I mourned the loss of our old friend and hero, Admiral Ackbar, this cause and effect may very well be the biggest reason to lament his death. Had he lived, we may've all been spared ever meeting that purple-haired Hunger Games casting reject, who exuded all the military bearing of Olive Oil. (And if I had to guess, i'd say Olive outweighed her.)
The Wook
nickytea
Master Member
Fly4v
Sr Member
Considering Rian's performance with TLJ. Let's toss more money at him.
Perhaps he will do better with his own section of the galaxy.
But then again, a lottery ticket retirement plan has a better chance of succeeding.
To date, these new Stars Wars are making George's unaltered OT even more brilliant.
Sad, It seems that Star Wars is well past its Concorde moment.
Perhaps he will do better with his own section of the galaxy.
But then again, a lottery ticket retirement plan has a better chance of succeeding.
To date, these new Stars Wars are making George's unaltered OT even more brilliant.
Sad, It seems that Star Wars is well past its Concorde moment.
GBRyker61
Well-Known Member
I was not happy with TLJ. That whole "Holding for Hux" gag at the start wore out quick. The scene with Luke chucking his old saber over his shoulder was not even funny. As the film chugged along, I started having this odd feeling that I'd seen this before, but in another movie. It wasn't until the battle of Crait that it hit me that I was watching a note-for-note rehash of Empire Strikes back, in reverse, with some ROTJ thrown in to extra ruin the film.
I personally think it would be better to can these next two trilogies, and let the new TV series go forward. As for the films, go with the stand-alone format. Rogue One was great. I'm looking forward to Solo. I personally feel that Stand Alone films would be a better fit for Star Wars. That way, they don't have to worry about connecting one to the other.
I personally think it would be better to can these next two trilogies, and let the new TV series go forward. As for the films, go with the stand-alone format. Rogue One was great. I'm looking forward to Solo. I personally feel that Stand Alone films would be a better fit for Star Wars. That way, they don't have to worry about connecting one to the other.
Solo4114
Master Member
Did you watch Rogue One? He was the Mon Cal leading the Rebel fleet. And in the scope of the films, he had about as much screen time and as much importance as Ackbar did in ROTJ.
Ok, well, I didn't really mind her as a character, but I wasn't that invested in either direction. If they'd kept Ackbar, cool. Whatever. If they kill him and have Holdo step in, cool. Whatever. I will say that I wasn't particularly invested in her death, but to be honest, I wouldn't have been particularly invested in Ackbar's death either.
I don't have any particular connection to Ackbar. He was a guy who had some lines in ROTJ. That's it. I know that in the old EU, he was apparently a big deal character, but what made him a big deal seemed to change over time. (Initially, I think he was supposed to have been Tarkin's personal slave, and therefore had info on the Death Star when he was rescued. And post-ROTJ he was still leading fleets and such.) But with the old EU being jettisoned -- something I'm actually kinda glad for on the whole -- he's really just another character who's equally as important as the other Mon Cal admiral who led a Rebel fleet in an ultimately costly but successful mission. The fact that Ackbar did it in the OT and Raddus did it in R1 doesn't really present a meaningful difference to me, character-wise.
That said, the reaction to his death (as well as the deaths of other OT characters) highlights something that I always saw as a potential weakness with any sequel trilogy that included the OT heroes. Put simply, you'd end up having to somehow diminish the OT heroes and/or kill them off, and you'd always raise questions about "But what about [background character]? What became of them?" The only alternative is to have the OT heroes being the focal heroes for the new movies, which for me is too much of a stretch.
cboath
Master Member
I don't agree. Luke could have been head of a small beginning of the new jedi order and stuck to his 'master' post at the temple or wherever, leaving the battle to the newbies. Han/Leia could still have been married and part of joining/starting the resistance was to try and get their son back. They could have been 'generals/admirals' or whatever responsible for 'the home office' so to speak and not the one's doing the fighting. Everyone's lives didn't have be destroyed to diminish their power for the sequels. That's ludicrous. No one expects the 60-70 year olds to be out on the front lines. They could be there, be positive, and not be the focal point. Easily.
I said before, does anything about TFA, for example change one single bit if Han/Leia are happily married and han's out on another ship making a delivery to a reistance base (or on his was back) when the stolen falcon pops up on his radar? Nope. Not a bit. Short of dumping the stupid rathtar bit. Han still dies trying to turn his son back, but there's no character reversal to start things off as it's totally unnecessary.
I said before, does anything about TFA, for example change one single bit if Han/Leia are happily married and han's out on another ship making a delivery to a reistance base (or on his was back) when the stolen falcon pops up on his radar? Nope. Not a bit. Short of dumping the stupid rathtar bit. Han still dies trying to turn his son back, but there's no character reversal to start things off as it's totally unnecessary.
That you didn't "get" that I was not literally asking, "Who?", but was figuratively asking the question because nobody knows or cares who TF he is, in contrast to Admiral Ackbar, a character we've known and loved for 35 years, means that there's nothing else I can say to you to convince you that the equivalency you've attempted to draw between the two characters is hideously out-of-touch with the passions of the fan community.
The Wook
Solo4114
Master Member
Well, a few thoughts, then.
1. First, your problem (it would seem) is not specifically with Rian Johnson or TLJ, but rather with the overall direction of the sequel trilogy (with probably a goodly portion of that lying at JJ's feet, which I think is a fair criticism). I don't disagree that you could've taken a different approach to Luke, Han, and Leia. But I do think it would have created a very different film series that probably wouldn't have characterized the new heroes as quite so heroic.
2. I think you're wrong that "nobody expects the 60-70 year olds to be out on the front lines. Put simply, I think the same folks who are bothered by the direction of the new films would be just as bothered if the OT characters hadn't gotten out and fought. I mean, look, there are rumors about ANOTHER Indiana Jones movie, in spite of the fact that Harrison Ford is going to be pushing 80 by the time that film is released. For better or worse, there seems to be an expectation among folks that these characters can keep on kicking ass forever. I think that's unrealistic, but clearly some folks out there disagree, or else nobody would've talked about Indy IV let alone Indy V, ya know?
3. I don't think they necessarily needed to put the OT heroes in the positions they were in starting in TFA, but I do think that you can't have them (1) being the focus of the story, or (2) sitting on the sidelines UNLESS they are doing so for big reasons. The central tragedy of Ben's fall to First Order essentially fractures the lives of the OT heroes and, if you accept that Ben would've fallen at all, I think it's actually pretty reasonable to have Luke wander off as a hermit, Han run from his grief across the star lanes, and Leia bury herself in another rebellion. Once you set it up so that Luke's nephew, Han and Leia's son, is not the hero of the new films, but rather the villain, then I think you end up with something reasonably close to what we have. In many respects, it's not that different to Anakin's fall and the impact that had on the heroes of the PT. Padme dies in childbirth. Obi-Wan and Yoda go into hiding. Everyone else dies, basically. (Yeah, I know Bail Organa and Mon Mothma found the rebellion, but they were barely in the PT films.) Finally, if you think the complaints about "Isn't this just ANH all over again?! They're just recycling the OT!" have been bad so far, imagine if Luke really HAD been the Obi-Wan stand-in here?
Actually, I think it changes quite a bit. It changes the emotional stakes for those characters, and I think in many ways diminishes the tragedy of Ben's fall. Plus, it sets you up pretty easily for a "And then in the end Ben will be redeemed, just like Anakin was, and we'll have an Ewok dance party at the end." Regardless, I think the real difficulty was in bothering to include the OT heroes at all. There's no really good way to thread the needle that isn't incredibly derivative of what came before, or such a jarring change that people end up disappointed. And it really doesn't help that we had 30 years of the EU to ask people to completely hand-waive away as if it never happened. For the really hardcore fans, I think that was a really heavy lift, and was probably impossible for some. I mean, people are still pissed that Pluto isn't a planet anymore.
@Solo4114 Also JJ intentionality left Luke off the TFA field after repeatedly trying to find a way to introduce him earlier in the film only to find that when Luke showed up, Rey, Finn, and Poe diminished into background characters. I’m sure people can construct a hypothetical where Luke is a great hero in the film but JJ couldn’t make that dog hunt without it hurting the new hero’s so he left Luke out until the end.
That's because JJ's a low-SWIQ hack.
Solo4114
Master Member
First, I don't know what movies you have and haven't seen. I don't assume you've seen everything that's come out since TFA, especially given how clearly you disliked TFA. My question was actually serious. If you haven't seen the movie, there's literally zero reason you'd know who this "Admiral Raddish" guy was. I watched maybe 1/3 of the most recent Star Trek film with the bees or whatever the hell they were, and I couldn't tell you who any of the characters are in that other than the TOS ones.
Second, let me ask you something. When the new films came out, did you disregard the EU that preceded them? I mean, like, COMPLETELY disregard it? (With the exception of what Disney made canonical, that is.) If you didn't, well...there's your problem. You're going into these films with a whole bunch of pre-conceived notions about how important and meaningful a character is, and the new movies are assuming all you've seen is the original movies and JUST the original movies.
If all you look at is their film appearances, they are virtually identical characters who share virtually equal screen time and narrative importance. From the films alone, the notion that Ackbar is somehow orders of magnitude more important than Raddus is simply indefensible. They're heroes of equal stature. The notion that Ackbar occupies some special place within the fan community is, I suspect, due to the following factors:
- They've been watching ROTJ for 35 years, and it holds a special place in their heart, and therefore so do all of the characters in it, in a way that newer films simply cannot measure up. That's called nostalgia.
or,
- They were deeply invested in the now-defunct-EU, which did portray Ackbar to be a pretty important figure within the Rebellion. I think my recollection of him as Tarkin's personal assistant, who was involved with stealing the Death Star plans and other big-deal stuff comes, I think, from the first X-wing game, although it probably pre-dates that and comes from some West End Games Star Wars RPG supplement. I'd dig through my box of that stuff to confirm, but it's packed away in preparation for storage as we list our house for sale.
There's basically no other reason to hold Ackbar in such high regard. There's certainly no reason within the context of the films themselves to do so, or at least to put him so far above Raddus. I can sympathize with nostalgia, since I feel it too for the original films. I can sympathize with people having difficulty separating their total "knowledge" of characters and such from the now-jettisoned EU continuity and only looking at stuff from what is currently canon. But it sounds like you're arguing that, objectively speaking, Ackbar is a more important figure than Raddus, and therefore deserving of better treatment, and I'm telling you that, objectively, you're wrong. Subjectively you're right. You feel more for Ackbar than you did for Raddus, and that's to be expected. But there is no objective difference between the two characters other than names and appearances. They might as well be the same guy for all of their narrative importance to the films.
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