Rian Johnson to write and direct a new trilogy of films.. (Star Wars Universe)

@Solo4114 Also JJ intentionality left Luke off the TFA field after repeatedly trying to find a way to introduce him earlier in the film only to find that when Luke showed up, Rey, Finn, and Poe diminished into background characters. I’m sure people can construct a hypothetical where Luke is a great hero in the film but JJ couldn’t make that dog hunt without it hurting the new hero’s so he left Luke out until the end.

That's my point, ultimately. IF your goal is to present the new characters as heroes worthy of their own stories, then having mom and dad and Uncle Luke save the day undercuts it. The problem is that if mom, dad, and Uncle Luke are all available to save the day....then why aren't they? We've already established that they're certainly capable of doing so. So, either you diminish them by showing them as somehow being incapable, or you diminish your new heroes by showing them as needing the old guard to save them.

I get the sense that some folks wanted the old guard to, not necessarily save them, but have some kind of super-power team-up where the old guard hands the baton to them...but pretty much that's what's happening in the current films. It's just not happening from a place of "and they lived happily ever after." Instead, it's happening in the wake of incredible tragedy that was brought about by the failings of all three of the major OT characters (as well as, apparently, external circumstances, although having not read the novels I can't confirm that).

Basically, the way I see it is that the tragedy of Ben's fall to evil is one of the only things that could truly lay the OT characters low and sideline them without killing them outright. It would take something of that magnitude to take them off the board, thereby allowing the new heroes the space to actually be heroes and not sidekicks.

That may not be a satisfying journey, emotionally speaking, for a lot of folks, and I get that. But as far as the story holding together, I think it makes sense. I actually think it makes more sense than, say, what motivated Anakin's fall to the Dark Side and subsequent embrace of evil.
 
First, I don't know what movies you have and haven't seen. I don't assume you've seen everything that's come out since TFA, especially given how clearly you disliked TFA.

Oh c'mon. I've commented on R1 a lot on this forum. And even if you don't recall any of that, you should assume based on everything you know about me for 16 years, that I've seen R1.

Second, let me ask you something.

Nine inches.

When the new films came out, did you disregard the EU that preceded them?

I've never followed the EU. I know next to nothing about it.

If all you look at is their film appearances, they are virtually identical characters. They might as well be the same guy.

That's racist.
 
Nine inches.

Ok, I legitimately laughed out loud at that. Well played. :)


I've never followed the EU. I know next to nothing about it.

Interesting. It sounds, then, like your connection to him is purely through watching the OT films, no? Is there something about Ackbar's behavior or accomplishments in the films that you see as so much more important or better or heroic than Raddus'?

That's racist.

Speciesist, technically. :)
 
@Solo4114 Also JJ intentionality left Luke off the TFA field after repeatedly trying to find a way to introduce him earlier in the film only to find that when Luke showed up, Rey, Finn, and Poe diminished into background characters. I’m sure people can construct a hypothetical where Luke is a great hero in the film but JJ couldn’t make that dog hunt without it hurting the new hero’s so he left Luke out until the end.

Every time you bring this up I have to call it out as a lack of creativity and imagination. :facepalm
 
Every time you bring this up I have to call it out as a lack of creativity and imagination. :facepalm

Yeah, but you can level the same criticism at the flipside scenario where the OT heroes just sort of slot into roles that the "PT" heroes held in the OT.

I mean, let's really break it down for a second. If your goal is (1) to ensure that the new film heroes are truly heroic; AND (2) the OT heroes remain heroic and are not weakened or made pathetic to accomplish #1; AND (3) the OT heroes aren't the ones who save the day.....then what does that end up looking like really?

Your best case scenario is one where the films end up feeling like a fairly predictable iteration of the OT. While you can claim that the current films are sort of like that, I would say that that's a pretty surface-level reading at best, and doesn't really look at the ways in which the characters are operating below the surface (i.e., what motivates them, how they behave, and their relationships with each other).

Basically, I think this ends up being the risk you take when you want to dovetail with the OT. You end up having to confront all of this stuff, which leads to at least some people being pretty unhappy with the results no matter which direction you move. Your alternative is to hurl the story far enough into the future to allow the OT heroes to (1) have lived happily ever after, (2) have had their victory really mean something, and (3) be far enough removed that they're now basically figures of legend. But then you lose out on the built-in familiarity with the OT.

I think this is a legitimate criticism of LFL's choices, but it's one I understand from a business perspective, and to help ensure the future of the franchise. My guess is that they keep going back to the "well of familiarity" to serve as a platform from which to launch future stories. (E.g., "Solo" may launch a new setting or new characters for new "Star Wars Story" films.)
 
Every time you bring this up I have to call it out as a lack of creativity and imagination. :facepalm

For the record, this decision became clear prior to JJ joining Episode VII, during the time when Michael Arndt was working on the screenplay -- and that man has no lack of creativity or imagination. In fact -- ignoring this juvenile "Star Wars IQ" nonsense -- I've never met anyone that knows more about how Star Wars functions, on a story level, than him. If he couldn't figure out how to make it work, nobody could. (Seriously, he did an hours-long presentation breaking down the narrative structure of STAR WARS ('77) and it was one of the most brilliant things I have ever seen.)
 
For the record, this decision became clear prior to JJ joining Episode VII, during the time when Michael Arndt was working on the screenplay -- and that man has no lack of creativity or imagination. In fact -- ignoring this juvenile "Star Wars IQ" nonsense -- I've never met anyone that knows more about how Star Wars functions, on a story level, than him. If he couldn't figure out how to make it work, nobody could. (Seriously, he did an hours-long presentation breaking down the narrative structure of STAR WARS ('77) and it was one of the most brilliant things I have ever seen.)

Where was that? Did you see it live? Is it on tape? Can you please post a link to it.

I'd love to see it.

Thanks,

The Wook
 
Where was that? Did you see it live? Is it on tape? Can you please post a link to it.

I'd love to see it.

Thanks,

The Wook

Yeah, it was an in-person thing. Hopefully he records it for posterity, or at least publishes in essay for, because it really is something.
 
Yeah, it was an in-person thing. Hopefully he records it for posterity, or at least publishes in essay for, because it really is something.

How long ago and where?

What was the gist of his presentation? Why did you find it so brilliant?

Thanks,

The Wook
 
Rian’s thoughts on where all of Star Wars has the potential to go..

https://io9.gizmodo.com/rian-johnson-understands-what-star-wars-needs-to-do-in-1824285540

On the whole, I think he's right. Endless iterations of the same old thing are going to fall flat. You have to introduce new elements.

At the same time, though, there's a core to these works that has to be maintained. As I've said elsewhere, I think Star Trek provides a cautionary tale about how to lose that core and thereby lose what makes your universe distinctive.

I tried watching the last Star Trek (Beyond) with my wife a month or two ago. We got maybe 1hr into it, and she (who had wanted to watch it more than I do because she loves Chris Pine) turned to me and said "If you wanna turn this off, I'm fine with it." I did, and in talking about it, we both came to the conclusion that it just felt like "Generic Space Adventure Theater." There was literally nothing distinctive about it. The characters were flat, the universe itself had no real flavor to it. It just felt very...generic, really. Yet, you have all the visual cues to tell you it's a Star Trek movie, right? Primary-colored shirts, high-water pants with tall boots, the Enterprise, phasers, warp speed, etc., right? Isn't that what makes it Star Trek? Well...no. I'd say what makes it Star Trek is a good deal more than that, and it has a lot more to do with the core of Star Trek as being about exploration, and a kind of slower-paced science fiction than generic slam-bang action sci-fi that's popular today. Whatever it is that makes Star Trek "Star Trek"...it wasn't on display in Beyond. (I still think that Master & Commander is a better Star Trek film than any of the nuTrek stuff.)

So, for Star Wars to remain Star Wars, you need more than just Jedi Knights, rebels, an Empire stand in, dudes in white armor, blasters, lightsabres, and wookiees. You need to stay true to the setting and the spirit of the films, even as you push the boundaries of the types of stories you tell.

I think -- and have thought for a while -- that we need to get beyond Empires and Rebels and their analogues. I can't see how endless cycles of Jedi vs. Sith are going to remain interesting.

The other thing that I think the filmmakers need to keep in mind is that the best science fiction -- or really the best genre storytelling in any genre -- is the kind that takes the human condition and experience, and filters it through the lens of the fantastical. The point is not the spaceships and laser swords. The point is what the people who fly the spaceships and swing the laser swords do, why they do it, and what it all means for them.

More than anything, I think the setting itself offers rich opportunities for telling a wide range of stories, provided that you maintain fidelity in the setting, and fidelity in terms of themes when appropriate to the story you're telling.
 
But Rian did more of a retread than what JJ did in TFA,.....JJ did a homage,....RJ re-did scenes but mocked them,....his main trick was recreating a scenario from ESB or RotJ, making you think you think how the familiar scene will play out,...but he darts off in a different direction

RJ didn't do anything fresh in this film,.....it was sour

J
 
But Rian did more of a retread than what JJ did in TFA,.....JJ did a homage,....RJ re-did scenes but mocked them,....his main trick was recreating a scenario from ESB or RotJ, making you think you think how the familiar scene will play out,...but he darts off in a different direction

RJ didn't do anything fresh in this film,.....it was sour

J

I haven't re-watched the film since I saw it in the theater, but how do you feel like he "re-created" scenes? About the only one I can think of is the assault on Crait at the end. I suppose you could say Rey's trip into the dark side cave was like Luke's but there, the big difference is that it seems like Rey learns the real lesson of the experience, whereas Luke kinda didn't.

There are general references back to previous situations (e.g. the young would-be Jedi consulting the old, isolated Jedi; the throne room meeting with the Big Bad and subsequent fight). And there are definitely subversions of tropes we've come to expect in Star Wars (e.g., the daring commando raid that...whoops...goes completely awry due to the betrayal of one of the members; the chase through space that actually isn't much of a chase at all; the starfighter assault that takes out the big bad guy weapon but costs a ton of starfighters and...er...wasn't really worth it in the end). But subverting tropes or referencing general situations isn't the recreation of scenes wholesale just for the purpose of destroying them.

I also would dispute that RJ creates these sequences just to destroy them. It's not like "Oh, you like your fun old Star Wars toy? >SMASH!< SUCK IT!! I **** ON YOUR OLD STAR WARS AND YOU ARE LAME FOR LOVING IT!!!" although I gather there are fans out there who think that's exactly what happened.

Rather, I think he subverted these tropes for the purpose of taking the story in a different direction from what's expected, ideally to lay the groundwork for an equally satisfying, but very different story (jury's still out on that, since we don't have a final chapter yet), and because doing so allows the characters to end up in different places -- and therefore to explore new aspects of the story and the characters -- than the expected version.

To put this into context: the expected version of the story is Rey shows up on Ach-To, says to Luke "I need you to train me so I can defeat the bad guys." Luke says "I've been waiting for you. I will train you." Insert scenes of Rey training by lifting rocks and pulling Luke's old X-wing out of the water and such. Insert sequence where Luke has Rey feel the power of the light side, and the power of the dark side, she has some funky vision in a cave, and then goes off to confront Ben. Big duel in the throne room, Rey is injured, just as Finn and Rose and DJ succeed in disabling the hyperspace tracking, after which they escape....but oh no! Finn is captured by Phasma because DJ got cold feet, but now he feels bad and is a good guy, and they all escape together on the Falcon, get to Crait, the Rebels fight off an Imperial attack, escape again thanks to Luke's last minute sacrifice, and we'll see you next time, folks. Rey is now determined to restore the Jedi order, thanks to Luke's teachings, and they're gonna go rescue Finn, too, in Episode IX, which is where the First Order loses utterly, Snoke is defeated, Ben is redeemed but dies, the end, put a bow on it.

Like, that's a really predictable version of all of this. Everyone ends up just being analogues for the last generation. Instead, we have some deeper differences, such as a real question as to what's gonna happen with Ben, whether Rey's approach to being a Jedi will be as "light/dark" dichotomous as the previous generations' were, the fact that the Rebellion is basically like 40 people on the Falcon and that's IT, Luke gone (but probably a Force ghost?), Leia alive (which they'll have to deal with), Poe no longer the reckless hotshot pilot and learning from his mistakes, Finn going through similar growth and falling in love, and so on. There's a sense of hope, but there's also a sense of "Man, I have no idea what comes next." I, for one, do not see this wrapping up neatly by the end of Ep. IX. I hope it doesn't, anyway, since that'll leave it open to tell more stories with these characters and really explore things while breaking out of the strict "Everything is dealt with in a single trilogy" story.
 
But Rian did more of a retread than what JJ did in TFA,.....JJ did a homage,....RJ re-did scenes but mocked them,....his main trick was recreating a scenario from ESB or RotJ, making you think you think how the familiar scene will play out,...but he darts off in a different direction

RJ didn't do anything fresh in this film,.....it was sour

J

Whats the old saying... Its easier to destroy than to create.
 
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