Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
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MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
Until they explain her proficiency with the Force people are going to conclude that she is a Mary-Sue.
You did agree that her proficiency seemed accelerated. But you also "however'd" in a contradictory manner. Which would lead one to believe you don't find my points valid, but can't say why.
You're just describing debate. How about participating instead? I have several specific points that can be addressed concerning the timeline. Kylo's face wound, Rey and Poe not running into each other on the base for instance.
You don't seem to have a problem with Luke learning something fast here. You also admit that Luke could have trained over a period of time. Why do you have a problem with Luke learning to Force-pull a saber over 3 years between ANH and ESB? And OWK probably taught him, just like he guided him during the trench run.
Luke had no formal training and what training he did have came relatively late in life. That's why he struggles. Also a hero should struggle. It makes for a more compelling character and a more rewarding victory. Luke's lack of proficiency, the time it took, who his family is, makes Rey's force proficiency all the more mysterious and makes it looks like she goes through it with too much ease.
Maybe OWK knew he had taught Luke everything he could and it was finally time to send him to Yoda. Maybe he knew that Luke was still associating the Force with physical limits and thought that it was time for Luke to see how the Force regarded size. It also makes a really neat scene.
I've said nothing that would indicate that I think the OT is "holy" or untouchable. Just stop. Also, strictly speaking this is a topic to discuss and analyze TL.J. You can feel free to make a topic about "Plot holes in the OT" if you really think it's an issue.
I posted a YouTube link to the parody Hardware Wars pages back in this thread, the iron was an homage to that. I laugh every time at the Poe on hold bit.
Greenie
Sr Member
I've seen galactic maps previously around the PT release but have they been updated for the new trilogy? If so, we can figure out how long Rey spent on Ach Too.
We know the last jump put the resistance about eighteen hours from Crait and Finn and Rose made it to Canto Bight and back in that time. So we could approximate sub light and hyperspace time and figure out how far and how long from Starkiller base to D'Qar and from there to the last jump. The time the resistance spent on D'Qar after destroying SKB will be equal to the time it took the FO to deploy the fleet in response, which I assume would be immediately.
We know the last jump put the resistance about eighteen hours from Crait and Finn and Rose made it to Canto Bight and back in that time. So we could approximate sub light and hyperspace time and figure out how far and how long from Starkiller base to D'Qar and from there to the last jump. The time the resistance spent on D'Qar after destroying SKB will be equal to the time it took the FO to deploy the fleet in response, which I assume would be immediately.
Zuiun
Sr Member
You're right! I do NOT have a problem with Luke just figuring out something about the Force. That is literally exactly my point! The original films and the prequels are filled with just as much nonsense that makes absolutely zero sense if you look at it too closely. But we just accept them.
I have zero doubts in my mind that were the original films released in today's over-connected, over analytical culture, Luke's abilities would be ripped apart just as much as Rey's.
What, exactly, did Luke struggle with other than lifting the X-wing?
My point was that in Empire, we see Luke try out something we have NEVER seen before... and he succeeds on the first try. Now, we *can* over think it, like I was trying to point out in my previous post.... but from what we see in the movie, Obi Wan wasn't training him. Luke seemed pretty surprised when he showed up in the snow, so it's pretty safe to assume his Force ghost wasn't just hanging out.
So what we get is Luke hanging there going, "hey, I wonder if this will work?" And it does. How is that ANY different than Rey? Keep in mind, when the film came out, how much time exactly had passed between ANH and Empire was completely unknown to audiences.
There was absolutely nothing in the film to suggest Obi Wan had been in communication with Luke up until that moment in the snow. In fact, Luke seemed surprised by the encounter. But here you are, willing to rationalize how this could all make sense, but unwilling to accept rationalization for how the new trilogy makes sense? Seems a bit hypocritical to me...
My point was to illustrate that the original films are just as silly and illogical as these new, but they get a pass.
annanake
Sr Member
If Rey is the ACTUAL CHOSEN ONE from the prophecy that is pretty much the only thing that does NOT make her a so called Mary sue . in my opinion .
Which she looks to be the case as she seems to balance the force within herself instinctively !
The kids at the end of TLJ had hard lives too and they did not magically mind trick there slave driving owner or something , because there still learning !!!!!!!
And if anybody has ever been a false prophet or whatever , it was Anakin !
Instead of showing the Jedi the error of there ways he killed em !
Besides everyone knows Anakin's dad was just some random trooper not the FORCE lol.
WAIT I FORGET LEAH !!!
Maybe you are right and only male Skywalker's are whiny little biznitches !!!
Which she looks to be the case as she seems to balance the force within herself instinctively !
The kids at the end of TLJ had hard lives too and they did not magically mind trick there slave driving owner or something , because there still learning !!!!!!!
And if anybody has ever been a false prophet or whatever , it was Anakin !
Instead of showing the Jedi the error of there ways he killed em !
Besides everyone knows Anakin's dad was just some random trooper not the FORCE lol.
WAIT I FORGET LEAH !!!
Maybe you are right and only male Skywalker's are whiny little biznitches !!!
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DarthLee
Sr Member
Other than OWK speaking to Luke when he blew up the DS
So we can take an educated guess, based on the fact that he could communicate with Luke. Maybe not visually, but its obvious, vocally.
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Anakin brought balance to the Force. He was not the actual balance, He brought it, in a bloodline that started with him. Thats why I believe Kylo lied to Rey... Rey is a Skywalker.
annanake
Sr Member
She can't be a Skywalker she's not all whiny like Anakin, Luke and now kylo !
Lol.
Reminds me of Urosakidoji (no idea if that's spelled right ?)
Anyway everyone was convinced about this dude being the chosen one but his job was actually to make way for the chosen one !
Vader wipes out the Jedi and the Sith Lords. pretty much right !
Now they can start over and the real chosen one teach balance !!!!
Well at least that is a good way to go to tie everything together and give Rey a reason for existing other than Disney needs her to be !
WAIT I did forget Leah maybe only male Skywalker's are whiny little biznitches !
Also minor point everyone says Kylo could be lying ?
Rey answers her own question Kylo ask only , he told her she knew the truth and SHE said her parents were nobody not Kylo !!!!
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MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
So where is your complaint about him pulling the saber in ESB coming from?
People have already done modern analysis of the OT. I'm doing it right now to compare Luke to Rey.
Since Rey hasn't struggled with anything concerning the force, Luke struggling with the X-wing is more than enough of an example. Also, he struggled to force-pull the saber in the snow cave.
What we see in the movies is OWK guiding Luke in the trench-run. Then during the opening crawl of ESB we see the story is that Luke and the rebels establish a whole new base on Hoth, which would take significant time considering the tunneling, infrastructure we see in the movie. So anyone who actually pays attention to the movies was clued into the fact that it was a significant period of time between them. And it is truly silly to believe Luke wouldn't investigate the force or these strange new abilities he has in the time between movies.
Luke's ability to force-pull suggest OWK was training him between the movies.
You're the one running away from the rational fact of Kylo Ren's facial wound and the short time it would take to heal. And the fact that he's still bandaged says only a very short time has passed. You're also ignoring Rey and Poe somehow avoiding each other on the resistance base until she leaves to find Luke. I've brought up those points twice so you're twice a hypocrite by your own standard.
No, your point was to accuse me placing the OT on a holy pedestal. And the OT is factually a lot less silly and illogical as these new movies. Poe's "hold please, yo momma" joke alone destroys any notion that TLJ has the same gravity as any OT movie.
Im still not clear why some continue to struggle with Rey's relationship to the Force. The answer is we still don't know why she is as powerful as she is, she doesn't know why in the film either, so the character and audience are having the same experience. That's by design. Trying to compare training montages and duration of training between the characters is a waste of time. Rey is unique, we have never seen anything like her in STAR WARS up until now regarding her Force abilities. We can glean that the Light brought her forth to combat the Dark as per Snoke but that's all for now.
Be patient, let them tell her story.
Be patient, let them tell her story.
DarthLee
Sr Member
Maybe she is a Vulcan and is 110 years old
LOL!! Let go of all these notions of Palawan to Knight to Master linear progressions. Maybe the Force can just say, "Oy, you there, it's on like Donkey Kong!".
Given the rehash of all the original trilogy plot points, im sticking with Bens twin sister. My biggest clue is how he had/has a big connection to her (mental link like luke and Leiah) and his meanness towards her once he finds out she is is sister, (you parents sold you for drinking money).
The Force is strong with the Skywalker family, and now that all of the OG people are dead on screen or off, they still want to pander to the older fans so they have a connection to Rey. Rey Skywalker. 'Its all Marketing!' Yogurt.
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Zuiun
Sr Member
Since I've tried to explain it twice now.... I'll try to be more clear.
I. Am. Not. Complaining. About. Luke. Demonstrating. A. Force. Ability. We. Have. Never. Seen. Before.
My entire point is that complaining about Luke suddenly being able to move objects with apparently no training (that we saw, or which we were told he received) is LITERALLY exactly the same level of nonsense as complaining about Rey's abilities.
In other words, you can't complain about one and leave the other. If you're fine with one, it only makes sense to be fine with the other. I'm fine with Luke just having new abilities, just like I'm fine with Rey having them.
Pointing out the stuff in Jedi was to illustrate a point.
I dunno... Rey looked pretty damn visibly distressed when Kylo was basically mind-raping her and she was shown breaking out into a sweat struggling to resist him.
So how did he investigate it? Nothing in the crawl nor the films suggest that Obi Wan had continued contact with Luke. Did he just.... oh, I dunno... MANIFEST some new abilities after realizing he could do things? You know, like Rey? Whether it took him a minute, or a day, or a year doesn't really seem to matter if he did it with no outside guidance.
Rey was seen to use abilities only AFTER she saw they were possible.
Again, you're willing to rationalize a gap in the narrative to fit your love of the original films, but not willing to do so for the new ones.
I literally said that we don't know how long it took her to find Luke's island. I said not one damn thing about how long she spent on the Resistance base. Stop inventing an argument.
Right, because a droid being held upside down while hot plates are stamped on its feet is sooooo serious and not played for laughs at all....
annanake
Sr Member
As long as the reason Rey is the shiznit with the force is NOT just cuz ! I'll be happy at this point !
Any attempt at story telling WILL be appreciated .
But they HAVE TO !!! Have Some sort of reason , the force choose her, which would not that make her the chosen one ??? Lol
Or she sat on a magic Jedi rug , or ate the sacred Jedi mushroom , something anything just make up something please at least phone in the answer if you want, just give an answer I beg of you . that and do SOMETHING with the Knights of Ren please !
Other than that I hope they go crazy stupid with the story .
Time travel !
We find out its all a dream of a Lothcat !
Alternate universe !
Jar Jar is the real villain controlling everyone's actions for his amusement !
The crazier they go the more I will like it !!!
Any attempt at story telling WILL be appreciated .
But they HAVE TO !!! Have Some sort of reason , the force choose her, which would not that make her the chosen one ??? Lol
Or she sat on a magic Jedi rug , or ate the sacred Jedi mushroom , something anything just make up something please at least phone in the answer if you want, just give an answer I beg of you . that and do SOMETHING with the Knights of Ren please !
Other than that I hope they go crazy stupid with the story .
Time travel !
We find out its all a dream of a Lothcat !
Alternate universe !
Jar Jar is the real villain controlling everyone's actions for his amusement !
The crazier they go the more I will like it !!!
Snikt
Sr Member
She has had so much time though. Thats why its disappointing. Since there is only one more movie on the docket with these characters, its all going to be hastily thrown together in the last movie. Granted Im not a writer, but whatever they do in the last movie, I dont see how it wont seem rushed, or...forced. (pun intended)
And a great last moment on screen for Leiah. Agreed great thought. Heck they could even have Rey mention that Leigh was helping her in the new movie.
jlee562
Sr Member
I share your frustration.
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