Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release) (Spoilers)
- Thread starter OldKen
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It does, although Kylo's specific motivation remains nebulous at this point. Is he being influenced by Snoke or his association with the Knights of Ren? I het the impression "I will finish what you started" has more to do with Vader's vision for the galaxy as opposed to the Empire's. I think there is a distinction between the two.
Riceball
Master Member
You mean, the Imperial military knows Vader as a BA Jedi hunter, we have no idea of just how much the general (in universe) public knows about Vader, if they even know he exists at all beyond a rumor, like a boogey man. I don't what the EU books and comics have shown or mentioned but there's nothing in the movies that have shown that Vader is a public figure of any kind, of course, there's very little shown of how the Empire is perceived in general outside the POV of the Rebels and the Imperial military. Although, if you accept the added scenes to the end of RotJ it made it seem that the Empire, and by extension the Emperor, were not that well loved by the general populace.
Great point.
I hadn't even considered that Anakin's view of the Galaxy would influence Vader's. Plus, from what we've seen on-screen, Vader looked to Palpatine as a master, just like he did Kenobi. Palpatine wasn't really interested in the day-to-day running of the Galaxy, he just was happy to have the Sith in power, even if it was from behind the scenes. The cruelty the Empire became synonymous with, came more from the regional rulers who were left to do as they pleased.
Now that I look at it from that perspective, It seems that Vader was right there with Palpatine, all for the greater good of order, until he decided to destroy Luke. Palpatine was THE master manipulator, & I think if Luke had turned & was ordered to kill Vader, then behind the mask, Vader would haave had the same look as Dooku when Anakin was ordered to kill him.
Palpatine was satisfied with power & Vader was satisfied with 'peace'. Both saw the Rebellion as a danger to their ideals.
Reelo
Sr Member
Wow, perfect way to put it.
JoMamma_Smurf
Master Member
I Like Kevin Smith a lot. I know some people think he sucks but overall I love his taste when it comes to entertainment so I value his opinion. this makes me very happy to read.
http://epicstream.com/news/Kevin-Sm...rce-Awakens-and-Says-It-Sent-Him-Back-to-1977
http://epicstream.com/news/Kevin-Sm...rce-Awakens-and-Says-It-Sent-Him-Back-to-1977
Yeah I think Anakin was obsessed with stability and peace by any means. I think Kylo is embracing that concept and the First Order is Snoke's spinoff of the Imperial renanant with this goal in mind.
It's possible Kylo is talking to someone else, like Snoke, but the audio was cut for the trailer to look like he was talking to the Vader helmet. This would not be a new trick for movie trailers to use.
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Yes, very good point.
Part of why I'm re-editing all the extant footage out there without sound (the other part being I don't want to fuss with the audio being jarringly out of sync). See how it looks with potentially-misleading bits of dialogue removed.
Hey, Bryancd, have you been reading the comics at all? Specifically Shattered Empire?
--Jonah
Hey, Bryancd, have you been reading the comics at all? Specifically Shattered Empire?
--Jonah
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You bet, all of them and the books!
seelsa73
Sr Member
Don't spoil them!!! I haven't read SE 3 or 4 yet.
Did you happen to read the new junior novelizations of the OT too?
I know this forum has a lot of “militant purists” where nothing outside the original unaltered films (With ROTJ not quite accepted either) will probably ever be accepted unless you guys are given approval over everything from the screenplay, filming techniques, etc. Some are so dogmatic they think their opinion is absolute science to what a “good” SW movie is. As if there is absolute scientific standard to what makes a film good or bad. It’s art, it’s subjective opinion. They could let you in on the creative process and approval and give you everything you want, truth told, no MATTER what they do, or whomever else does with a SW movie, there will always be people on forums here or somewhere griping about what was done “wrong”. Never can they make EVERYONE happy.
^ True. At the same time, there's... an established range, I suppose, for lack of better terminology, for how to craft any given idea into a story, and any given story into a script, and so on. The pacing, the beats, how long to spend establishing the old status quo before "something happens" to launch the protagonist on their arc, how long to develop the complexity of the challenge, where to put the twist, how long after the climax to spend on the coda and establishing the new status quo, etc. There's only so long you can go with any portion of that, with a film, before the audience gets bored. Conversely, if not enough time is spent on each of those beats, the audience can too easily be lost. Good filmmakers can keep an audience's interest for any length of time.
All of that, though, depends on so much. Production design (sets and costumes and props and so forth), cinematography (the visual "style" of the film, from color saturation to aspect ratio to shot and scene changes, etc.), writing, acting, directing, editing... And here's where I think the fans and armchair filmmakers have a legitimate gripe. Early on, George understood his weaknesses and shored them up with people who were strong in those areas. That changed after Empire. Also, throughout, he's said he got into movies because he loves editing and the ability that gives one to control what the audience sees and how fast they experience it. I honestly think if he'd gotten a good director (or directors) for the Prequels, and for those and ROTJ had turned them loose to generate several hundred alternate takes and camera angles and focal lengths and so forth of any given shot, he'd have possibly made some really nice finished films. The problems crept in when he tackled more of the writing (which he acknowledges he isn't good at and doesn't like to do) and directing (which he acknowledges he isn't good at and doesn't like to do). But he felt all of that was necessary to control the raw material he got in the editing booth.
He had some really great initial ideas. When those got refined into the scripts for Star Wars and Empire, with assistance from others who are better at turning ideas into stories than he, we ended up with some really good results. But when he started having to do all of it himself (and I count hiring people who won't really ever disagree with him as "doing it himself"), it became much more scattershot -- a string of vignettes, rather than an organic narrative...
I can't speak for others, but I've spent a large portion of my life studying storytelling, learning how to not write badly by trial and much error, and making it a decent way through film school before money became an insurmountable obstacle. So while yes, ultimately, it is a very subjective thing, I think I have a ballpark notion of what that thing might be. At a sort of "put up or shut up" request, I've been re-transcribing my rewrites of everything post-Empire (the four films that were to have followed from the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, and the six films that would have gone back and told the beginning of the saga, from the Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi), going by what I'd been able to glean from George's notes and interviews through the '80s and '90s, and incorporating some of the more organic elements from the Prequels, Special Editions, and Expanded Universe. I think it says much that everyone who's seen those treatments/scripts (as the particular case may be) have found them substantially better than the last four films we got. [Side note: Sorry it's taking me so long to get these into my new computer. Real Life does unfortunately take precedence...]
All of which means I do think I've learned a bit about good and bad storytelling, how to craft a structurally sound film, and -- most germane -- how to do a good Star Wars movie. I try to avoid Lucas-bashing (well... George-bashing, anyway -- Katie Lucas, on the other hand...), I try to give a more well-rounded critique of the Prequels beyond "they suck", and all evolving out of a decade-and-a-half-long introspection into what felt "off" to me when I first saw ROTJ in the theater. I also am not pre-emptively ranting about what's wrong with TFA or saying what JJ and Company should or should not be doing. I've read the interviews and listened to them and the actors talk about the film and I have a strong feeling they know what they're doing. After it opens, and I see it at least once, I'm going to start digging for making-of and behind-the-scenes books and magazines and featurettes to better understand the whys and wherefores of whatever they end up doing and not doing. Then I might start second-guessing some of their choices. But not before.
Meanwhile... seelsa73, if you don't want spoilers, you're in the wrong thread. I don't get how you don't mind spoilers for the main event, but the ancillary material is no-go territory for you. :behave Hurry up and read 3 and 4, darn it -- they've been out for days!
--Jonah
All of that, though, depends on so much. Production design (sets and costumes and props and so forth), cinematography (the visual "style" of the film, from color saturation to aspect ratio to shot and scene changes, etc.), writing, acting, directing, editing... And here's where I think the fans and armchair filmmakers have a legitimate gripe. Early on, George understood his weaknesses and shored them up with people who were strong in those areas. That changed after Empire. Also, throughout, he's said he got into movies because he loves editing and the ability that gives one to control what the audience sees and how fast they experience it. I honestly think if he'd gotten a good director (or directors) for the Prequels, and for those and ROTJ had turned them loose to generate several hundred alternate takes and camera angles and focal lengths and so forth of any given shot, he'd have possibly made some really nice finished films. The problems crept in when he tackled more of the writing (which he acknowledges he isn't good at and doesn't like to do) and directing (which he acknowledges he isn't good at and doesn't like to do). But he felt all of that was necessary to control the raw material he got in the editing booth.
He had some really great initial ideas. When those got refined into the scripts for Star Wars and Empire, with assistance from others who are better at turning ideas into stories than he, we ended up with some really good results. But when he started having to do all of it himself (and I count hiring people who won't really ever disagree with him as "doing it himself"), it became much more scattershot -- a string of vignettes, rather than an organic narrative...
I can't speak for others, but I've spent a large portion of my life studying storytelling, learning how to not write badly by trial and much error, and making it a decent way through film school before money became an insurmountable obstacle. So while yes, ultimately, it is a very subjective thing, I think I have a ballpark notion of what that thing might be. At a sort of "put up or shut up" request, I've been re-transcribing my rewrites of everything post-Empire (the four films that were to have followed from the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, and the six films that would have gone back and told the beginning of the saga, from the Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi), going by what I'd been able to glean from George's notes and interviews through the '80s and '90s, and incorporating some of the more organic elements from the Prequels, Special Editions, and Expanded Universe. I think it says much that everyone who's seen those treatments/scripts (as the particular case may be) have found them substantially better than the last four films we got. [Side note: Sorry it's taking me so long to get these into my new computer. Real Life does unfortunately take precedence...]
All of which means I do think I've learned a bit about good and bad storytelling, how to craft a structurally sound film, and -- most germane -- how to do a good Star Wars movie. I try to avoid Lucas-bashing (well... George-bashing, anyway -- Katie Lucas, on the other hand...), I try to give a more well-rounded critique of the Prequels beyond "they suck", and all evolving out of a decade-and-a-half-long introspection into what felt "off" to me when I first saw ROTJ in the theater. I also am not pre-emptively ranting about what's wrong with TFA or saying what JJ and Company should or should not be doing. I've read the interviews and listened to them and the actors talk about the film and I have a strong feeling they know what they're doing. After it opens, and I see it at least once, I'm going to start digging for making-of and behind-the-scenes books and magazines and featurettes to better understand the whys and wherefores of whatever they end up doing and not doing. Then I might start second-guessing some of their choices. But not before.
Meanwhile... seelsa73, if you don't want spoilers, you're in the wrong thread. I don't get how you don't mind spoilers for the main event, but the ancillary material is no-go territory for you. :behave Hurry up and read 3 and 4, darn it -- they've been out for days!
--Jonah
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seelsa73
Sr Member
I was mostly joking about that, but in my defense, this is a TFA spoiler thread, not an "all things Star Wars" spoiler thread. And I tried grabbing them over the weekend, but my comic shop didn't have them in stock. I suppose I could have ran across the street to Comix Zone, but I prefer to get mine from my mom and pop's comic shop (say that 5 times fast).
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seelsa73
Sr Member
Excellent book. Better than Aftermath.
That is even more dumb if that is the backstory. If stuff like that is canon, then the people who bashed the EU have to bite their tongues.
I don't get it... Luke tries to get the Jedi restarted, it ends horrifically, and he has PTSD from it is "dumb"? Dumber than the way the Force-users acted and the government reacted in the Jedi Academy Trilogy or Fate of the Jedi?
--Jonah
--Jonah
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