Star Wars stand alone films on hold...

Jagjaguwar said:

Lots of palpable anger and frustration here. Most of it pretty well stated and well-supported.

The difficult question, though, is: when will the chances to get it right be used up? Is everyone still going to go see Episode 9 when it comes out? I think of bands and musicians that I used to love, who began making a different kind of music that I didn’t enjoy. In that case, I liked each successive album less and less, until eventually I stopped paying attention altogether. I still enjoy the old albums as I always did, but some of the intensity of my interest definitely cooled. Does anyone foresee that happening with their love of Star Wars? I imagine it’s a difficult question to answer.

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That analogy about bands is pretty cool . I’ll always have a soft spot for Star Wars .
The OT having made such an impression from a relatively young age .
I can’t say for certain , but I believe I chose my professional career path ( industrial design ) due to no small love of what I found enthralling in those earlier films .
Not sure if that overall feeling will diminish over time , but I can honestly say that I don’t want it to .


:cheersGed

Jagjaguwar said:

Lots of palpable anger and frustration here. Most of it pretty well stated and well-supported.

The difficult question, though, is: when will the chances to get it right be used up? Is everyone still going to go see Episode 9 when it comes out? I think of bands and musicians that I used to love, who began making a different kind of music that I didn’t enjoy. In that case, I liked each successive album less and less, until eventually I stopped paying attention altogether. I still enjoy the old albums as I always did, but some of the intensity of my interest definitely cooled. Does anyone foresee that happening with their love of Star Wars? I imagine it’s a difficult question to answer.

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It’s actually really interesting that you use that “favorite band” metaphor. I was having an off-RPF discussion on this with The Wook several weeks back and used that exact same metaphor, with my view being that, when bands I loved “drifted’, I didn’t take their creative choices personally and spend time railing against them online (hey, it’s their music) but, instead, just stopped buying their new stuff and continued to enjoy their old stuff. The Wook’s response was interesting – his view was “yes, but in my case, the band I love keeps promising to make new music that harken back to the old stuff I loved. So they're dangling that carrot for me, and like a sucker, I'll keep running after it.”

M

JPH said:

Taiwanese and Chinese families that have been getting together for years for hot pots and Chinese New Year and Thanksgiving. Two girls couldnt wait to talk about Rose. I remained silent. Some people had seen the movie, we actually pulled up clips online and that's when the tofu hit the rotary oscillator... lotsa "bu how" s and "mei yoh" s being thrown about. I thought people got upset during the last election... I was asked why I had EDIT (removed the word "not") been silent, as if I could call Rian and tell him to give Rose some more pride and self-esteem and taste. Rose was concluded to be "faceless" another way of saying, " shameless."

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Interesting.

Thanks for setting that scene.

JPH said:

So, one side says, TLJ was great.

The other says, "it stank."

The lovers of TLJ say, "let's talk about it."

and if you mention Finn, you get called a racist, Rey - a sexist, Rose racist AND sexist.

And the circle goes round and round. Here we go again.

It is an intellectually lazy way to manipulate. No thought required. Any legitimate concern is treated like toxic hatred. It completely avoids the dialog that was initially requested. It is passive-agressive defense mechanism. They don't need to listen, they don't want to listen. They feel superior by thinking the are exposing something evil that was never there.

And then ask for civility.

The catch being, THEY want people to spend money to maintain a franchise.

The irony being that it really reveals the racism and sexism of low expectations on their side. Really, you don't think a woman should work hard to be competent in something? So, the group of asian yelling at me like I'm the American ambassador for Star Wars, about how Rose is an insult to Asian women, suffer from from Stockholm Syndrome?

We don' have to prove what we aren't.

We cannot have a rational discussion when the other side is just looking for knee-jerk triggers. The supporters and Rian J have done more damage than the crappy movie.

and we take our money elsewhere.

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I've never asked you to spend your money to support the franchise. You can take your money wherever you want, but all things considered yeah I think civility is the way to go when discussing the qualitative merits of a piece of pop culture entertainment.

There's no need to look for knee jerk triggers when some of the loudest statements are about Rey and Rose. Most of the criticisms I've read about those two characters are hardly legitimate.

The whole Rey is too good at the force thing I find very irritating and spurious at best. It discounts the years that the character spent on Jakku fending for herself, when she clearly learned how to fight and survive, and presupposes that Luke Skywalker should be the uber example of what a non-padawan, new generation Jedi should be. Maybe she's just BETTER at the force than he was when he started learning?

Luke didn't have any idea about the force, even as a concept, before meeting Obi Wan. The next thing you know he's blowing up the death star in a fighter he's never flown before that day. I'm pretty sure Rey should get a pass for a little bit of low-grade mind trickery and a sword fight against a deranged and destabilized kid who just killed his own father.

So yeah, it's tough not to see latent (not necessarily even intentional) sexism in a lot of those criticisms.

Jagjaguwar said:

Lots of palpable anger and frustration here. Most of it pretty well stated and well-supported.

The difficult question, though, is: when will the chances to get it right be used up? Is everyone still going to go see Episode 9 when it comes out? I think of bands and musicians that I used to love, who began making a different kind of music that I didn’t enjoy. In that case, I liked each successive album less and less, until eventually I stopped paying attention altogether. I still enjoy the old albums as I always did, but some of the intensity of my interest definitely cooled. Does anyone foresee that happening with their love of Star Wars? I imagine it’s a difficult question to answer.

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For me, it has gone like so. I LOVED a particular band. They put out music that was formative for me in terms of my tastes in entertainment overall, and their early music is a cornerstone of my life that I still love. But they went through this "middle period" where they wanted to get...experimental. When the new stuff first came out, I HATED it. Absolutely despised it. What's more, it seemed like that was all they were interested in making, AND they stopped producing copies of their original few albums; you could only get their remasters, and the remasters were done really, really poorly, and they overdubbed one of the backup singers (who had this one amazing solo on the first album) with some new singer who just...sounds off. Like it's too clean as compared to the rest of the music and the sound, which was still really kinda raw back then, flaws and all. And then for, like, twelve years, that was all they did. EVERYTHING was oriented towards the "new sound," and I rejected all of it. I started off furious, then grew sad, then grew resigned to it, and then finally just kinda walked away. But then, three things happened.

1. I found copies of their old stuff on original vinyl, in great condition, so I could finally listen to the old stuff the proper way. And it sounds great on my sound system now.

2. After urging by some people who were fans of their entire catalogue, I started listening to this one series of live performances that they did with this particular producer and...it's actually really good! It blends the old stuff with the new stuff I didn't like, and even managed to get me to at least kind of enjoy their final album from the "new era."

3. They released several new albums with a bunch of different producers, each of whom brought a slightly different sound to the whole affair. The first one played like a "greatest hits" album, which was...pretty good. I mean, I was looking for something new, and this felt kind of "reheated" instead. It wasn't bad, mind you. Just felt like new music that was playing it safe and capitalizing on the old sound. Apparently they recorded it using old techniques, too, and that part was at least cool. But I was really hoping for something newer and more interesting that could evolve the sound in a direction that would be interesting to me and that wasn't just rehashing the old stuff. They then released a cover album, but it wound up sounding a lot like their old stuff, which was pretty cool as well, but still left me hoping for more interesting new stuff. And then they released their latest album, which I absolutely loved because it still felt like their old stuff to me, but they did it in directions that totally surprised me and yet still held together really well. It was different, though, in a big way, and a lot of fans REALLY didn't like it, even though I did.

So, now I'm excited for what the future holds, but my concern is that they're gonna respond to the fan backlash and just play it safe again, which will be...you know...fine, I guess, but such a waste of the potential they have for this new direction. I'm hopeful they can thread the needle and still keep things fresh and evolving, without it necessarily seeming quite so "out there" for some of the old school fans.

mkstewartesq said:

It’s actually really interesting that you use that “favorite band” metaphor. I was having an off-RPF discussion on this with The Wook several weeks back and used that exact same metaphor, with my view being that, when bands I loved “drifted’, I didn’t take their creative choices personally and spend time railing against them online (hey, it’s their music) but, instead, just stopped buying their new stuff and continued to enjoy their old stuff. The Wook’s response was interesting – his view was “yes, but in my case, the band I love keeps promising to make new music that harken back to the old stuff I loved. So they're dangling that carrot for me, and like a sucker, I'll keep running after it.”

M

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When it comes to entertainment, I have learned -- actually from my experience during the prequel era of Star Wars -- that it's best to NOT personally identify or at least not over-identify with something, and to be absolutely ready to walk the hell away from it if it stops being entertaining. Like, it's a shame, yeah, but it's just not worth the level of drama that has arisen around TLJ. And I say that as someone who absolutely despised the PT (for the most part), and who was furious with George for how he handled the franchise after TPM came out and up until he sold it. Life is way too short to spend your energy pissed at a movie franchise. Focus on what you enjoy and just enjoy it, and don't let the other negative stuff ruin your fun.

Paul Andrew said:

I don't think that brush is as wide as you think it is.

I see mention of 'troll' groups in that piece, but not anything referencing normies for whom the film just didn't work.

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I think part of it comes from where you see the comments from LFL/Disney. If you don't read the main press release or interview - it gets muddied as it's reported in articles farther down the line. I can't name the place now as it was like 2-3 months ago, but I did read a bit where the article basically said what was mentioned above - that everyone who didn't like it was sexist or whatever. Now, my initial reaction was 'seriously'? But i noted it was using bits from another article and figured that it that was the case, it'd be big here. It wasn't so i figured it was misconstrued.

Now, that doesn't mean a number of others didn't see it and actually believe it. Just saying, i can see where that belief comes from is all.

cboath said:

I think part of it comes from where you see the comments from LFL/Disney. If you don't read the main press release or interview - it gets muddied as it's reported in articles farther down the line. I can't name the place now as it was like 2-3 months ago, but I did read a bit where the article basically said what was mentioned above - that everyone who didn't like it was sexist or whatever. Now, my initial reaction was 'seriously'? But i noted it was using bits from another article and figured that it that was the case, it'd be big here. It wasn't so i figured it was misconstrued.

Now, that doesn't mean a number of others didn't see it and actually believe it. Just saying, i can see where that belief comes from is all.

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Do you mean that the news gets reported through fan sites (mis)quoting each other, rather than the original source presented in context? Because I can see that happening. But I can also see people simply over-identifying with the fans who are actual trolls and taking it personally when various creators/studio folks speak ill of trolls.

Like, because those studio folks aren't talking about their own criticisms, and are only talking about the trolls, they assume the studio people must just lump everyone who didn't like it together as trolls.

If I say "a lot of the most vocal critics of the films have written some fairly sexist stuff, and some have written some downright racist stuff," that's not me dismissing all negative opinions as racist or sexist. But I think that's become the popular assumption in the "didn't like TLJ" camp: that Disney just wants to treat all people who didnt like the film as racist, sexist trolls.

If Disney distinguished between the two groups of people who didnt like the film, that might ease some of the frustration, but I think we are past that point now.

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Solo4114 said:

I LOVED a particular band. [...]

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Off-topic or not, after reading all this you made me really curious as to which band you're talking about.

sztriki said:

Off-topic or not, after reading all this you made me really curious as to which band you're talking about.

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Star Wars, man! The band is Star Wars! I was just playing along with the analogy.

mkstewartesq said:

It’s actually really interesting that you use that “favorite band” metaphor. I was having an off-RPF discussion on this with The Wook several weeks back and used that exact same metaphor, with my view being that, when bands I loved “drifted’, I didn’t take their creative choices personally and spend time railing against them online (hey, it’s their music) but, instead, just stopped buying their new stuff and continued to enjoy their old stuff. The Wook’s response was interesting – his view was “yes, but in my case, the band I love keeps promising to make new music that harken back to the old stuff I loved. So they're dangling that carrot for me, and like a sucker, I'll keep running after it.”

M

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But that’s a HIM problem. And for a lot fans, they are in a similar boat. We aren’t individually owed or promised anything. SW as a franchise reaches an insne amount of people world wide. To expect you’ll get exactly what you want is a fool’s errand. To complain you didn’t get what you want is a valid outlet. But when you begin to drift into belittling those that don’t share your opinion and join the mob mentality out to actively ruin it for others instead of just moving on with your life, you’re the actual problem.

SethS said:

But that’s a HIM problem. And for a lot fans, they are in a similar boat. We aren’t individually owed or promised anything. SW as a franchise reaches an insne amount of people world wide. To expect you’ll get exactly what you want is a fool’s errand. To complain you didn’t get what you want is a valid outlet. But when you begin to drift into belittling those that don’t share your opinion and join the mob mentality out to actively ruin it for others instead of just moving on with your life, you’re the actual problem.

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Not saying I disagree with that - but also not going to further characterize the statements made by someone else, as doing so wouldn't be fair when they aren't here to clarify or explain their words further. Just posted in response to the original question which was,in essence, "how long will people keep watching SW if they keep getting disappointed?" The exchange I recounted illustrated that some of us would eventually just accept it and drift away, while others will keep coming back in the hopes that it will get better. (Which, to your point, doesn't excuse getting progressively angrier when it doesn't get better.)

M

Totally agree.

But you can read posts higher up on this page where people who have really aggressive attitudes THINK they are having a dialog, when in fact, they are calling people who disagree with them stupid. I mean, we've all been there, no one is perfect. But if your defense against somebody's opposing opinion is to call them objectively stupid, it comes of as hilariously ironic.

Solo4114 said:

Star Wars, man! The band is Star Wars! I was just playing along with the analogy.

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Oh god, I thought there was an actual band that did a similar path...now I feel real dumb, maybe I should get some more sleep...:lol
Although I still don't know what the "live album that blends old and new" is, the animated series?

sztriki said:

Oh god, I thought there was an actual band that did a similar path...now I feel real dumb, maybe I should get some more sleep...[emoji38]
Although I still don't know what the "live album that blends old and new" is, the animated series?

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Yup. The Filioni TCW show. Its decidedly Clone Wars era, but feels like the kind of thing I'd have much preferred to see (albeit a bit skewed towards younger audiences).

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Solo4114 said:

Do you mean that the news gets reported through fan sites (mis)quoting each other, rather than the original source presented in context? Because I can see that happening. But I can also see people simply over-identifying with the fans who are actual trolls and taking it personally when various creators/studio folks speak ill of trolls.

Like, because those studio folks aren't talking about their own criticisms, and are only talking about the trolls, they assume the studio people must just lump everyone who didn't like it together as trolls.

If I say "a lot of the most vocal critics of the films have written some fairly sexist stuff, and some have written some downright racist stuff," that's not me dismissing all negative opinions as racist or sexist. But I think that's become the popular assumption in the "didn't like TLJ" camp: that Disney just wants to treat all people who didnt like the film as racist, sexist trolls.

If Disney distinguished between the two groups of people who didnt like the film, that might ease some of the frustration, but I think we are past that point now.

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This is the only site i read that could be called a fan-site. I didn't read it here. It was an article off msn, yahoo, something like that. For those types of reasons i avoid fan-sites for critique. It was an actual news site referencing, the issues with Daisy and Rose (forget her name offhand) and treated the quotes as relating to all those who didn't like it. But it's almost expected when you research some of this stuff and find it's on Site X, who excerpted newsweek, who excerpted Variety, who quoted LFL or whatever.

When Disney/Lucasfilm allow certain employees to continually attack large groups of people online which fuels the trash media outlets and commentators, I have posted examples already, is it not reasonable to assume that they are condoning if not actually encouraging their behaviour? I cant think of another example of such a large corporation allowing such behaviour from employees ,can anyone else?

I don't think those groups of trolls are that large compared to most of civilized fandom, just big enough to be real loud.

You are missing the point, the attacks are based around just people who dont like their product, Pure and simple. And being loud isnt just something that comes from one side either. Some people think that just being a supporter of the rubbish being dished out softens their very own vitriol. The current comic strip circulating, which is totally bogus, is a great example of that.

I think you might be conflating the who with the why. If there were no trollish outcry/publicly harassment of cast members then there would likely not be any response to fan criticism at all. I'm just suggesting that you are feeling lumped in with those folk simply because you share dislike of the film and I don't think anyone from Disney/LFL is out there attacking anyone on the basis of their opinion of TLJ, just their disgusting expression of that dislike.

I dont feel lumped in with anyone, i think this tactic of deliberately deflecting genuine criticism of terrible movies by trying to create a narrative of those critics just being sexist, racist trolls is disgusting. We have seen even here how people have been classed politically just because of their opinions on TLJ and thats just not on.