Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

JoMamma_Smurf said:

Kennedy has been pushing the females are better thing since disney bought lucasfilm. She's been photographed with other women in her little circle, wearing shirts that say "the force is female." What the **** does that even mean?!?!?! She definitely has an agenda and it's hurting the stories... But who gives a crap I guess because it rakes in that sweet sweet $$$$$

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Meh.

That's what happens when corporations try to meme, not when feminism runs amok. "The future is female" dates to NYC in the 70's, and resurfaced around 2015 or so.

The Force isn't female. That is rubbish.
Obiwan told us in the first movie what it was!!

Solo4114 said:

2. Latent sexism.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the people who respond badly to Holdo are themselves raging sexists who affirmatively believe that women are inferior. Rather, I think they're more likely falling victim to, and failing to realize the impact of, the sexism in society at large. The first response for many when seeing Holdo in charge is "Who the hell is this?!" From that flows pretty much every other criticism of her character, from being high-handed and needlessly secretive, to her being rude or mean or whatever. It's all based on this underlying notion that she doesn't belong in that position. It's not even a conscious notion, really, and it sits right alongside everyone absolutely accepting (for example) that Leia is running the entire Resistance. No problem there. But that doesn't mean it isn't coming as a result of sexism.

The way I see it, try a little thought exercise. Take Laura Dern out of the film, replace her with, say, Idris Elba or Bruce Greenwood or Brian Cox or (etc., etc., etc.), and ask yourself if you'd really have a problem with the character. You don't have to answer me, but I'm betting that a lot of people, if they're being honest, would probably have a lot less of a problem with any of these actors in that role. That's sexism. Not conscious, "go make me a sammich" sexism, but unconscious discomfort at a woman (A) being in a role traditionally held by a man (or a fish-man), and (B) talking down to a man, especially one who has previously proven himself in combat (even if he also proved himself to be a fool in his last sortie). Again, I am not saying that you're some kind of woman-hating knuckle-dragging MRA red-pill blogger. I'm saying that your response is a kind of conditioned response borne of the sexism inherent in our society, and that's exactly why having roles like Holdo are important: they break that sort of thing down.

You know what the ideal response to a character like Holdo should be?

Nothing. Nothing whatsoever. Nobody bats an eye at it, whether Holdo is a woman, a man, a fish-man, a fish-woman, or whatever. It shouldn't matter at all. But because we live in a sexist society, when people try to push back against that, it sticks out and folks respond. Which, to me, proves that there needs to be more challenging of those kinds of norms, because they're arbitrary, artificial, and wholly unnecessary.

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I believe there are a few objective problems with Holdo, as a character.

When Po started to straighten up thinking he might be given command I was ready to facepalm and was relieved to hear it was Holdo. I didn't want it to be Po. But when she entered I was initially taken aback - not because she was a woman - but because she was dressed so inappropriately. If Holdo was a man dressed like a senator from Coruscant I would have been just as put off. It's not the fault of Laura Dern but of the character design.

I also have a problem with the way Holdo was written. As I stated before someone taking over command at this point I should expect to at least address the remaining troops to orient and instill morale. Instead she gives a eulogy and tells nothing of her plan. You can rationalize all you want that she doesn't owe anyone an explanation but a leader - especially one who is taking a new command during a time of crisis - needs to give even a vague idea that there is a plan in motion and that things are happening otherwise you invite dissent, which is exactly what happened with Po. If they wanted to make her look like an imperfect leader then they succeeded.

Her costume, including the purple hair, and the lack of command presence really stripped her character of credibility as a leader for me.

I don't have a problem with her bringing Po to heel but Leia was always more constructive with her criticism. If you want to say he needs to be taken down a peg that's fine but do it professionally. "Commander? Oh yes, you were demoted ?" If Carrie, as Leia, had to give that line I would imagine she would have done so standing her ground, commanding her personal space and staring down Po until he averted his eyes so he knew who was boss. But that line was given to Dern as Holdo and in her hands the delivery was a passive-aggressive sleight as she drops the line and walks away. That acting choice was just wrong. Passive-aggressiveness makes Holdo look weak and it certainly wouldn't cause Po to know his place. I feel like Dern (as well as whomever wrote Holdo) doesn't understand leadership.

I'm not looking for excuses to hate on this character. I wanted to like her. Leia, as a leader, was written and performed with more gravity. Padme, too, had palpable authority. I should think that if my problem was one of latent sexism I would have had a problem with other strong female characters such as Leia, Padme, Rey or Jyn. But I don't. Holdo simply hit the wrong notes in terms of character design, writing and performance.

And, trust me, if Holdo was a male character, dressed like a wealthy bureaucratic senator from Coruscant, with purple hair, speaking eulogies when he should be instilling morale and dressing down Po while dropping a mike I'd be every bit as irritated.

Leia wears a dress type outfit the whole movie.

karmajay said:

Leia wears a dress type outfit the whole movie.

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So did Obi-Wan in ANH!

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karmajay said:

Leia wears a dress type outfit the whole movie.

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But it doesn’t look as if she just came from an Oscar party.

Toadmeister said:

So did Obi-Wan in ANH!

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Same with him!

karmajay said:

Leia wears a dress type outfit the whole movie.

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Yes, but hers is high collared and military-esque

doctorDWwho said:

Yes, but hers is high collared and military-esque

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I love that coat!
One of my favorite shots in the film is the one on the salt planet where she’s staring out into the distance with the collar masking her face.

Crazy conspiracy theories are just as whacky as ever. It shows just how insecure and frightened fanboys can be... and just how gullible.

"OMG! Kathleen Kennedy wore a shirt that said the Force is Female." - how dare someone celebrate being female and being into Star Wars. It doesn't mean there's some crazy conspiracy. Should her and her friends being wearing Slave Leia gold bikinis? That will show us just how female and Force friendly they really are. The original Star Wars gang was a buncha white dudes, that doesn't mean they were pushing the Aryan nation.

Luke fricking Skywalker was female at one point in Uncle George's original story... Lucas' original Episode VII pitch was for a female apprentice under Luke (who became Rey). This isn't stuff Kathleen Kennedy came up with.

The sheer amount of nonsense that gets thrown around is ridiculous. We've got so many assumptions based on so little fact - guys making up rating systems to try and show just how big of a fan they are, when really it just shows how tiny they really are. Falsities spread with no basis in fact or a care to back it up - why? because the followers follow.

Kathleen Kennedy is a professional filmmaker who has been a part of many, many, many films. She's worked with top level talent. She's 64 years old and married to a very successful movie maker in his own right. The idea that she has some hidden agenda is pure nonsense - she's out to make the best movies she can and she hires the professional film makers to do just that.

Zuiun said:

The film didn't disregard Rey's parentage. We were very specifically given an answer, which is what fans wanted. Is it that you're unhappy with the answer? Blame JJ Abrams, his "mystery box," and the fact that he left a simple plot device hanging for fans to obsess over. Rey's parents only needed to be one thing: The reason for Rey to refuse the Call to Adventure -- the exact same purpose Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru served in A New Hope. That's it.

If Abrams were a stronger storyteller, once Rey overcame her objections and answered the Call, he wouldn't have left that thread dangling for fans to obsess over. Rian Johnson can hardly be blamed for realizing what everyone should have: that her parents no longer matter.

Regarding Snoke and Kylo, we didn't need to know who the Emperor was or why Vader turned to the Dark Side in the original trilogy. But, having said that, we are only on the second film of this new trilogy. Just because Snoke is dead doesn't mean there still isn't an opportunity for something about him to be learned in the next film, nor does it mean there is no longer the opportunity to learn what, exactly, drove Kylo to the Dark Side. We've been given two tantalizing teases about Kylo's backstory: the Knight's of Ren, and him destroying Luke's training temple. Now that Snoke is out of the way and the next film doesn't have to try to juggle two antagonists, there's more opportunity to learn about Kylo.

It's almost like people have written off all possibility for these films to continue to provide information as though this were the third act instead of the second.

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Yes, by saying her parents are nobody disregards it. How are you blaming JJ and this "mystery box" nonsense? He planted ideas so things could be explored and progress the story, to make it interesting. Those questions he raised in TFA is what got the people interested in this movie so excited about seeing it. I disagree with you there. Being extremely adept in the force has always been based on lineage, throught the entire series. JJ was going with that, but Rian cut it off cause he just decided to change it for his movie. The parents have always mattered. Thats why its called the Skywalker Saga.

Yeah, and those movies were made over 35 years ago. I would hope to think filmmaking and story telling have evolved since then, peoples expectations and intelligence have gone up. And there are already 7 movies before this one, and nothing from this one can be explained? Thats ridiculous. Its actually pretty insulting. You can clearly tell that with 7,8, and 9, they have no idea what the hell they are doing. They are throwing **** at a wall and seeing what sticks. The knights of ren werent even mentioned in this movie. It isnt all about Kylo either, if anything, he was the only character that evolved, everyone else stagnated.

You know why they think that? Because Rian snuffed everything people wanted to know about, out.

Also, how come they even included Holdo in the first place? How come that couldnt have been admiral ackbar, making a rad sacrifice at the end, and making some rad one liner "its about time I set a trap of my own" or something cool, and he gets to go out in a blaze of glory. Instead he dies off screen like he was nothing. Its like Rian was trying to **** off fans of the OT stuff.

I know what kind of seam was sewn into Han solos pants in the original. I learned it reading RPF forums. I also know which kind of calculator provided the bubble strips on Luke's lightsaber, what a parsec is, and which font was used for the credits. All learned here.


Yes many of the comments in this thread are nitpicky. Star Wars is being discussed in RPF forums. If the nit picking bothers you I can't help but wonder if you're lost.

edit: BTW...I can't speak for anyone else, but for me: I think it's obvious that I'm a Star Wars fan, and I overall liked the movie, on balance. I also think it wasn't a perfect movie and enjoy discussing what I thought could've been improved. I don't fully understand why that bothers some people about this specific movie, but...so it goes.

Snikt said:

Yes, by saying her parents are nobody disregards it. How are you blaming JJ and this "mystery box" nonsense? He planted ideas so things could be explored and progress the story, to make it interesting.

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He planted questions because he likes questions. He has literally gone on record many times saying that he likes the question better than the answer. He had zero plan for the questions he planted in The Force Awakens and I feel confident in saying that he was way less interested in answers to those questions than you are.

Those questions he raised in TFA is what got the people interested in this movie so excited about seeing it.

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I'm sorry, but if an answer to the question of who Rey's parents are is what got you invested in the story, then you missed the point.

This movie isn't about Rey's history. It's about her path moving forward. Just like the original trilogy didn't obsess over Luke's past. It was his story moving forward. Even learning about his connection to Darth Vader, we STILL never got a backstory to how and way Vader fell until 16 some odd years later when Lucas decided to release the prequels. And in that time, no one was complaining about the lack of backstory.

Being extremely adept in the force has always been based on lineage, throught the entire series.

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If you want to get technical about it, we were pretty much told in the prequels that Anakin was a creation of the Force in order to bring balance back. I may not be a genetic scientist, but I'm pretty certain that "created by the Force" is not an inherited trait...

And unless we are going to assume that the entire Jedi order was just one giant inbreeding experiment, it's a pretty good bet that it's about more than lineage.

JJ was going with that, but Rian cut it off cause he just decided to change it for his movie.

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JJ was going with his mystery box. Full stop.

It isnt all about Kylo either, if anything, he was the only character that evolved, everyone else stagnated.

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Everyone else stagnated? Did you even WATCH the movie? Let's see...

Poe begins the movie exactly as he was in the last film: a hotshot pilot with little regard for authority. By the end of the film, he has learned that being a leader is more than being impulsive and "jumping in an x-wing to go blow stuff up."

Finn is still largely selfish at the beginning of the movie, still willing to run away in the face of adversity. By the end of the film, he is literally willing to end his life for the Resistance.

Rey begins the film that the answers she seeks are somewhere outside of herself, whether it's wanting to know who her parents are, or demanding that Luke train her. By the end of the film, she realizes that ultimately where she came from doesn't matter because it's HERSELF she needs to have confidence in.

I'd hardly call that stagnation for any of the main characters.

You know why they think that? Because Rian snuffed everything people wanted to know about, out.

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Not everyone. I don't require a two hour movie telling me about Rey's past. I want to know where she's going forward.

Snikt said:

Also, how come they even included Holdo in the first place? How come that couldnt have been admiral ackbar, making a rad sacrifice at the end, and making some rad one liner "its about time I set a trap of my own" or something cool, and he gets to go out in a blaze of glory. Instead he dies off screen like he was nothing. Its like Rian was trying to **** off fans of the OT stuff.

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I would've liked Ackbar better in that role. I guess I just assumed that Dern wanted to be in the movie so they found a decent part for her. She does bring some star power legitimacy to the part.

Zuiun said:

He planted questions because he likes questions. He has literally gone on record many times saying that he likes the question better than the answer. He had zero plan for the questions he planted in The Force Awakens and I feel confident in saying that he was way less interested in answers to those questions than you are.



I'm sorry, but if an answer to the question of who Rey's parents are is what got you invested in the story, then you missed the point.

This movie isn't about Rey's history. It's about her path moving forward. Just like the original trilogy didn't obsess over Luke's past. It was his story moving forward. Even learning about his connection to Darth Vader, we STILL never got a backstory to how and way Vader fell until 16 some odd years later when Lucas decided to release the prequels. And in that time, no one was complaining about the lack of backstory.



If you want to get technical about it, we were pretty much told in the prequels that Anakin was a creation of the Force in order to bring balance back. I may not be a genetic scientist, but I'm pretty certain that "created by the Force" is not an inherited trait...

And unless we are going to assume that the entire Jedi order was just one giant inbreeding experiment, it's a pretty good bet that it's about more than lineage.




JJ was going with his mystery box. Full stop.





Everyone else stagnated? Did you even WATCH the movie? Let's see...

Poe begins the movie exactly as he was in the last film: a hotshot pilot with little regard for authority. By the end of the film, he has learned that being a leader is more than being impulsive and "jumping in an x-wing to go blow stuff up."

Finn is still largely selfish at the beginning of the movie, still willing to run away in the face of adversity. By the end of the film, he is literally willing to end his life for the Resistance.

Rey begins the film that the answers she seeks are somewhere outside of herself, whether it's wanting to know who her parents are, or demanding that Luke train her. By the end of the film, she realizes that ultimately where she came from doesn't matter because it's HERSELF she needs to have confidence in.

I'd hardly call that stagnation for any of the main characters.



Not everyone. I don't require a two hour movie telling me about Rey's past. I want to know where she's going forward.

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Wasn't Poe LEADER of some squadron in TFA? The whole thing about him needing to learn a lesson felt manufactured. In TFA, I had the impression he was a respected leader. This movie needlessly sent him backwards.

Finn has issues with selfishness now? He ultimately sacrificed himself for Rey in TFA and entered this film suffering the consequences. ROSE was just as selfish when she crashed him out to teach him a lesson - wasn't she doing about exactly what he did in the previous episode?

As for Rey, they imply her past is important just by her setting in TFA (hash marks on her wall, hand made doll) as well as her past/famuly being mentioned multiple times.

They didn't hardly mention anything about Finn's past, and nobody really wondered about it. Strange.

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AJTaliesen said:

I would've liked Ackbar better in that role. I guess I just assumed that Dern wanted to be in the movie so they found a decent part for her. She does bring some star power legitimacy to the part.

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Is that another form of ‘ Fan pandering ! ‘ , albeit fans with clout ? - Daniel Craig , The 2 British Royals etc...

gedmac66 said:

Is that another form of ‘ Fan pandering ! ‘ , albeit fans with clout ? - Daniel Craig , The 2 British Royals etc...

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Possibly, but it makes sense and I'd probably do the same. From a studio perspective...if big names want to be in your movie it's probably only going to help you. Besides, even though I don't think thats the right part for her, Dern is still a name for a reason. She's an outstanding actress.

https://twitter.com/colintrevorrow/status/946332873589706752

Colin Trevorrow: "We all have our own personal relationship with Star Wars. Hopefully we can talk about the characters we love without ridiculing others for loving them in a different way—or for different reasons."

Vivek said:

https://twitter.com/colintrevorrow/status/946332873589706752

Colin Trevorrow: "We all have our own personal relationship with Star Wars. Hopefully we can talk about the characters we love without ridiculing others for loving them in a different way—or for different reasons."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSIMs3fWAAAtuD3.jpg

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This just reminded me of this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1pn4bTAQWA

Seriously though, agree.

Interesting to note that only Chewie and 3PO will be the only ones left from that line up of figures. And once again the Admiral has been shoved to the extreme edge of frame