Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

What did you think of Star Wars: The Last Jedi?

  • It was great. Loved it. Don't miss it at the theaters.

    Votes: 154 26.6%
  • It was good. Liked it very much. Worth the theater visit.

    Votes: 135 23.4%
  • It was okay. Not too pleased with it. Could watch it at the cinema once or wait for home video.

    Votes: 117 20.2%
  • It was disappointing. Watch it on home video instead.

    Votes: 70 12.1%
  • It was bad. Don't waste your time with it.

    Votes: 102 17.6%

  • Total voters
    578
Here’s why I just don’t have a problem with Luke momentarily thinking that killing Ben Solo was the right course of action – especially in light of his (seemingly) contrary attitude with respect to Vader in ROTJ. Let’s look at Luke’s history:

Luke grew up believing he had no father; when he found out the truth about his father, that undoubtedly awakened some hope in him that, if Vader was in fact his father, Vader couldn’t be all bad and perhaps could be turned to the light- in effect, allowing Luke to regain the father he never had.

So what’s different between the Vader and Ben situations that might trigger different responses in Luke? Several things:

1. Let’s recall that Luke’s emotion toward his father was apparently reciprocated – meaning that, once he saw Luke (and, one assumes, also saw shades of Padme), Anakin himself began an internal struggle. This is most evident when Vader lets his emotional guard down in ROTJ and says “it’s too late for me, my son.” So Vader was giving outward evidence of this struggle – telling Luke that Luke’s hope was not completely unfounded.

We don’t have any evidence from TFA or TLJ (really, one way or the other) that Kylo was evidencing such a struggle at all. All we know is that he has unprecedented power (Luke to Rey: “I’ve seen raw strength like this only once before”), leaned toward the Dark Side, and based on the timeline (Han and Leia specifically reference Snoke as being instrumental in Ben’s fall), it sounds like Luke, Han and Leia were aware that Snoke was active in Ben’s life at this time. So, by the time of the contemplated killing of Ben, we have more than just a “student teetering on the brink” and likely more “an immensely powerful student being affirmatively groomed by a Dark Side user”.

2. Let’s face it – post ROTJ, Luke has suffered through the horrors that two Dark Side force users can wreak on the galaxy and – whether right-headed or not – is likely to take a very knee-jerk approach to making darn sure it doesn’t happen again, especially not where he might play some fault in it happening. (In fact, I'd bet Luke has feelings akin to PSTD when ti comes to the Galactic Civil War). Add to that, in his perception, it could be worse this time around, given Ben’s youth and that his strength in the force eclipsed Anakin’s. So it seems entirely conceivable - even consistent – that Luke’s first impulse would be to take the most drastic action necessary to prevent the galaxy from plunging into an even worse darkness than before. So he starts down a rash course – but, true to the Luke we know, he hesitates and thinks better of it (perhaps recalling the redemption of Vader); unfortunately, through poor circumstance, his initial impulse cannot be “taken back” and ends up making things worse.

So, yeah – I get that if Luke had gone through with his plan to assassinate Ben without remorse, that would seem out of character for Luke. But that’s not what happened – instead, he started to make a bad choice – based on factors and circumstances that are consistent with what came before – but his better nature prevailed and stayed his hand. In other words, Luke started to make an understandable but bad decision and stopped himself – how is that “out of character” for any of us, much less Luke?

M

Yeah, and I would go on to add that the entire Skywalker family is very problematic in regards to the Force. Whenever a Skywalker comes to prominence in the Force the Dark Side rises to meet them. Just like Snoke said. I think Rey is there to fix that cycle.
 
I understand that, but were talking a fleet of them, and that mega destroyer, 60 kilometers long. I think they could've overwhelmed them quite easily, the odds were easily in their favor. Vader's Executor which was a puny 19 km, held a minimum of 144 fighters but could carry over a thousand. Normal SD's carried a complement of 72. Would stand to reason a 60 kilometer dreadnaught would carry several thousand. I still find it the covering fire excuse a little weak, but maybe that's just me.

It was explained in the movie that they had the resistance on a string. Basically why risk losing ships and pilots when all you have to do is let them run out of fuel? There are plenty of real world examples of "waiting out" a situation.

- - - Updated - - -

Well hopefully LFL & Disney learn from this horrible mess

J

I think they did learn a lesson. They learned that they can still make boatloads of money by doing what they want and not trying to appease the older fans. They are appealing to youngsters to continue this brand long after you and I are one with the force.
 
I dont think the movie at the theater will suffer. I think most of the people (with the money) will think twice about buying the DVD... Cause every fan will watch it once.. just like this thread.. im sure 90% of us have given Disney our money at the theater...but will we repeat that action with the DVD?

Ill probably buy it, only if its a shelf space piece... next to all SW movies..just to see the many Star Wars tags facing toward me from my shelf.
 
As Obi-Wan said in ANH - they're "short range" fighters. They already established the resistance ships were too far away.
True, but the TIE fighter in ANH that encountered the Falcon was pretty far from the Death Star on patrol, I would say just as far as the resistance ship was from the destroyers. Also, the TIE fighters pursuing the Falcon deep into the asteroid field in ESB were pretty far as well, still seems iffy.

Ah well, just struck me as odd.
 
True, but the TIE fighter in ANH that encountered the Falcon was pretty far from the Death Star on patrol, I would say just as far as the resistance ship was from the destroyers. Also, the TIE fighters pursuing the Falcon deep into the asteroid field in ESB were pretty far as well, still seems iffy.

Ah well, just struck me as odd.
You're free to think that but I feel as if the ships in TLJ were a lot farther apart. Neither of us know for sure. I just think it's plausible that the distances here are more than in the other films.
 
So I thought maybe I had been to harsh on TLJ and saw it again with my wife a few days ago. She loved it and I really enjoyed it the 2nd time, first time I think I was in the wrong mental state to watch the film due to other issues going on in my life. The things that set my teeth on edge didn't bother me the 2nd time. I can even see why they had Luke the way he is, ever since the prequels I've said the Jedi were arrogant dicks who earned the end that they got, so I guess Luke in his search of Jedi knowledge of the past learned the same and was disillusioned by it as anyone would be, that combined with his mistakes with Kylo basically broke him. I do agree with Kevin Smith and think him actually there at the end would have been a much better ending but hey I didn't make the film and have no say. I'm just glad I enjoyed it on my 2nd viewing and that it was me the first time not the film.
 
You're free to think that but I feel as if the ships in TLJ were a lot farther apart. Neither of us know for sure. I just think it's plausible that the distances here are more than in the other films.

And just to make it more interesting visually they made it so both fleets could be seen in one shot. And the Supremecy could continue with its harassing fire.
 
What was stopping all those Destroyers from launching their TIEs which should have caught the fleeing resistance ship easily?

Wasn't there a line that went something like "If we keep outpacing the Destroyers the Tie fighters will withdraw."

I don't remember them giving a reason like "They'll run out of fuel" or "They need to maintain comms distance" or something. So basically the Tie Fighters couldn't be used because the heroes needed it. Even though we've seen a lone Tie-Fighter patrolling far from base in ANH "That's no moon" scene.
 
Following up on my earlier thoughts about the claims that TLJ wasn’t true to – or even “ruined” - Luke’s character, I have to say:

1. For me personally, I hated – and still hate – the choice to have Luke die. Having seen ANH in the theaters when I was 9 and living with the character for the past 40 years, the simple fact is that I personally did not need or want to see “how his story ends.” Sure – everybody eventually dies – but, to me, the SW films are like fairy tales, and you can tell a story that continues a fairy tale without having to specifically show Cinderella or Snow White dying to pave the way for the new characters. There were ways to continue Rey’s journey as an independent hero without Luke dying; hell, having Luke remain an active player through Ep. IX could’ve been done without undermining Rey’s heroic status. I’d much preferred that they simply let him ride off into the sunset after IX, so I could continue to imagine him in other adventures – or at least not have my memory of him and his camaraderie with Han and Leia tinged by sadness at the thought of him dying alone on a faraway planet.


2. That being said, the more I think about it, if he had to die, his death was beautiful and 100% true to his character. Whatever changes he has gone through in the past thirty years, when his friends needed him the most, he made an affirmative decision to make the ultimate sacrifice for them. At some point, he made the decision to go out on that rock and undertake an effort that he knew would almost certainly end in his own death. And he didn’t do that because he wanted to die – he did that out of love for his friends over himself. Just like when he left Dagobah in ESB to save Han and Leia, and just like he fought Vader in ROTJ out of fear that Vader would corrupt Leia. That final act – however much I disliked it - was perfect to Luke’s character.

M
 
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I really, really wish I could have seen Luke take the controls of an X-Wing again maybe even flying along side Po both hot dogging and competing for kills and Luke showing up Po with "old-school" moves in his last generation fighter...

... but maybe he looked too silly with the helmet on top of a full beard.
 
Following up on my earlier thoughts about the claims that TLJ wasn’t true to – or even “ruined” - Luke’s character, I have to say:

1. For me personally, I hated – and still hate – the choice to have Luke die. Having seen ANH in the theaters when I was 9 and living with the character for the past 40 years, the simple fact is that I personally did not need or want to see “how his story ends.” Sure – everybody eventually dies – but, to me, the SW films are like fairy tales, and you can tell a story that continues a fairy tale without having to specifically show Cinderella or Snow White dying to pave the way for the new characters. There were ways to continue Rey’s journey as an independent hero without Luke dying; hell, having Luke remain an active player through Ep. IX could’ve been done without undermining Rey’s heroic status. I’d much preferred that they simply let him ride off into the sunset after IX, so I could continue to imagine him in other adventures – or at least not have my memory of him and his camaraderie with Han and Leia tinged by sadness at the thought of him dying alone on a faraway planet.


2. That being said, the more I think about it, if he had to die, his death was beautiful and 100% true to his character. Whatever changes he has gone through in the past thirty years, when his friends needed him the most, he made an affirmative decision to make the ultimate sacrifice for them. At some point, he made the decision to go out on that rock and undertake an effort that he knew would almost certainly end in his own death. And he didn’t do that because he wanted to die – he did that out of love for his friends over himself. Just like when he left Dagobah in ESB to save Han and Leia, and just like he fought Vader in ROTJ out of fear that Vader would corrupt Leia. That final act – however much I disliked it - was perfect to Luke’s character.

M

After Han bit the dust, I knew there was nothing sacred keeping the original three alive. I mentally prepared myself for Luke to die. However, my main gripe with this installment of Star Wars is how he was portrayed prior to his "awakening". The whole circumstances of events that lead to the creation of Kylo Ren doesn't make sense. We have Luke Skywalker, a man who was told that he HAS to kill Darth Vader because once you go Dark Side, that's it. Ben Kenobi and Yoda are constantly drilling it into this kids head that Vader has to die. However, Luke says he can't kill his own father, and that there is still good in him. Will he succeed in redeeming his father? He doesn't know, but he knows that he has to try. As long as there's good in him, he can be saved. Fast-forward about thirty years, and we have Luke make (even for the briefest of seconds) the decision to preemptively murder his nephew just because he had a feeling, or he saw the future? I guess he forgot that Yoda told him "Always uncertain the future is...."

Then, they have Luke pull a Lightning McQueen and just give up. Wow.
 
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All I'm going to add to this discussion is this: I've been on this ride before. I'm a 51 year old fan who saw the original film in theaters in 1977 and who actually likes the prequels (a lot). I've defended them plenty. I've heard every argument there is against them and, conversely, I've MADE every argument possible in support. And speaking from experience, all I can say to those defending TLJ is this: Good. Luck. It all sounds very familiar. Whether you're right or not isn't the issue. You can spend the next 20 years passionately pounding the keyboard trying to convince "the haters" that they're wrong and at best you may help move the needle slightly one way or the other. The backlash against this movie is real. I saw it in the theater where I sat, I heard it in the lobby walking out, I've heard it from friends, I've been reading about it, and seeing it in YouTube videos. Don't delude yourself in thinking it's not real or that it's just a few whiny loudmouths who "don't get it." It's not. What we're seeing doesn't happen if its just a few people or that all of them are being unreasonable. Believe me, I spent years thinking that eventually the hate against the PT would dissipate and eventually people would come to recognize that their initial opinions were too harsh. Not gonna happen. People's reactions get baked-in pretty quickly. Opinions can move back and forth slightly -- TFA has definitely lost support over the years -- but when people aren't happy it's a much steeper hill to climb to convince them that they're wrong than it is the other way around. It's usually a fool's errand. Trust me, from one fool to another. If you're committed to defending this film, go for it, but be prepared for decades of frustrating whack-a-mole. I'm not saying you need to change your opinion or that you need to start hating the movie. I'm not even saying you're wrong. Just know that this isn't going away. It's probably going to get worse. And you may be thinking, "Yeah, but my arguments are really good and the PT and TLJ are apples and oranges and I know in my heart..." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Been there. Hey, don't take my word for it. Do what you gotta do. But don't say I didn't warn you. Oh, and welcome to Hell.
 
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