Everything great about ROTS
- Thread starter astroboy
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I gave em 2 so you could either look at TPM as a wash and cram it into AOTC and ROTS, which would be tougher to have a "turn" point... OR start it FOR REAL in TPM (not just a lame handshake), and then you have TPM and AOTC to bond them, and ROTS to have a painful betrayal.
Either way... failure.
And it's so easy... I mean EVERY kid knew what that relationship was like in their heads... That's why so many of us thoroughly rejected the one they gave us.
Either way... failure.
And it's so easy... I mean EVERY kid knew what that relationship was like in their heads... That's why so many of us thoroughly rejected the one they gave us.
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There are many astromech droids
There are many protocol droids
Leia using the force? Bad writing?
May be it's an age thing. There are two specific groups of SW fans. The class of 77' and the class of 99' and the latter can never appreciate how SW shaped our generation. I doubt that JJ's two hour mash up of the originals pushed any nostalgia buttons for them because it's not the SW they grew up loving. Either way, we are all fans together, let's not fight amongst ourselves.
Ahem
I might be born post OT but I still regard them as better films than the PT.
Compare it to the super jumps Obi-Wan did at the end of Phantom Menace when Maul fights Qui-Gon Jinn, it's even worse :facepalm
Greenie
Sr Member
Ahem
I might be born post OT but I still regard them as better films than the PT.
Quite rightly. Because they are much better movies than the PT. In 1977 GL had a story to tell but had to figure out how to make it into a movie. In 1999 he had new technology to make movies but no story to tell.
Rotwang
Sr Member
I went to see ROTC and for a brief moment I thought, "Now, we're going to see the payoff for those clever setups we had in the OT."
Remember the scene in Jedi ? When Vader is watching Palpatine blasting Luke and something inside him snaps ? I was convinced there would be exactly the same scene where Annakin watches Palpatine zap - my money was on Amidala at the time - and he would fail to stop him and that would be the awesome moment he turns to the dark side.
Remember when Ben talks about Luke's dad and you can easily read there is a massive background of shared adventure and friendship being hinted at ?
And then you realize that Lucas doesn't even bother (or doesn't want to) to check out his own films to match what happens in the prequels ...
I can still watch the prequels, but they are broken films because on the one side Lucas has great ideas, but has trouble stringing two of them together.
If you've seen the Plinkett review of TFA, he talks about how there is this movement by those who were kids when they saw the Prequels and their attempt to affirm that they are the real fans of the only movies that matter and that the fans of the original trilogy are only the fans of something old and ancillary and not really relevant any more and that the prequels are a work of genius only they and Lucas are willing to understand.
The whole Star Wars mythology is based on about two movies. The first being a huge unexpected hit. It wasn't really an original story, but it had a good combination of action, special effects, memorable characters and while it had serious flaws, it had so many good vibes, nobody cared. The second film was a well-crafted story with strong drama and character action.
Star Wars is like the radio/tv analogy, the pictures were better on the radio because the best moments of Star Wars left us to fill in the gaps ourselves.
When we were introduced to Yoda I could imagine that he was that super-wise little green guy who had been on this jungle planet for almost forever and that once in a while Jedi would seek him out to learn more about the Force. He was above the light and dark side of the force, he didn't need to use a lightsaber because he was the mystical side of the Force.
The Force itself was this cool thing, that you could learn and master, sure, some people had a natural talent for it, but then some people are born to play guitar, some are not, but you can still enjoy it on your own level without being a master.
Ben was this guy who after the Clone Wars happened to settle down on Tattoine, maybe because of a Force-inspired hunch that he might be needed some day or that he had some ties to the planet through his good friend, Luke's Dad.
And we forget that Luke and Leia were twins, spending a bunch of time together, strong in the force, both able to sense all kinds of things, but no alarm bells would go off as they kissed ...
Or that Ben Kenobi is a bit of a jerk when he tells Luke that Vader killed his dad and then his force ghost has to tell him that it was a bit of a lie and you think, come on he wanted to spare the kid's feelings, you're not going to tell him that his dad is now the Galaxy's most feared enforcer ...
And then Lucas comes along and he compounds his mistakes and makes them a million times worse.
Because everything goes wrong when an eccentric Jedi finds a kid that is the best in the Force ever because tough **** folks, the Force belongs to the genetic aristocracy, not the average peon, who may be surrounded by it, penetrated by it and be part of a big galaxy bound together, it's free WiFi everywhere, but no money to buy a smartphone ...
The expressly warn the Jedi that the kid is too old and too emotional and that he'll cause trouble down the line and when everything does go wrong, We find that Luke is just a pawn in Obi-Wan and Yoda's plan to beat the Sith by leaving one of the kids to be raised on a farm, delay his training even further than his dad's, lie to him while it's obvious he could be just as unstable as his dad while completely ignoring the other twin who becomes a major player in the rebellion.
Thank the Force for making a parent and both siblings of the Galaxy's most powerful Force User family entirely blind to each other's presence and ability to use it.
And people have the nerve to complain that the Force Awakens is bad for being essentially a soft reboot ? Look at it this way, can you name any other movie that was that successful and didn't get a remake after four decades ? If it had been any other studio movie, it would have been remade instead of the prequels.
Right, off to go watch Rogue One ...
Remember the scene in Jedi ? When Vader is watching Palpatine blasting Luke and something inside him snaps ? I was convinced there would be exactly the same scene where Annakin watches Palpatine zap - my money was on Amidala at the time - and he would fail to stop him and that would be the awesome moment he turns to the dark side.
Remember when Ben talks about Luke's dad and you can easily read there is a massive background of shared adventure and friendship being hinted at ?
And then you realize that Lucas doesn't even bother (or doesn't want to) to check out his own films to match what happens in the prequels ...
I can still watch the prequels, but they are broken films because on the one side Lucas has great ideas, but has trouble stringing two of them together.
If you've seen the Plinkett review of TFA, he talks about how there is this movement by those who were kids when they saw the Prequels and their attempt to affirm that they are the real fans of the only movies that matter and that the fans of the original trilogy are only the fans of something old and ancillary and not really relevant any more and that the prequels are a work of genius only they and Lucas are willing to understand.
The whole Star Wars mythology is based on about two movies. The first being a huge unexpected hit. It wasn't really an original story, but it had a good combination of action, special effects, memorable characters and while it had serious flaws, it had so many good vibes, nobody cared. The second film was a well-crafted story with strong drama and character action.
Star Wars is like the radio/tv analogy, the pictures were better on the radio because the best moments of Star Wars left us to fill in the gaps ourselves.
When we were introduced to Yoda I could imagine that he was that super-wise little green guy who had been on this jungle planet for almost forever and that once in a while Jedi would seek him out to learn more about the Force. He was above the light and dark side of the force, he didn't need to use a lightsaber because he was the mystical side of the Force.
The Force itself was this cool thing, that you could learn and master, sure, some people had a natural talent for it, but then some people are born to play guitar, some are not, but you can still enjoy it on your own level without being a master.
Ben was this guy who after the Clone Wars happened to settle down on Tattoine, maybe because of a Force-inspired hunch that he might be needed some day or that he had some ties to the planet through his good friend, Luke's Dad.
And we forget that Luke and Leia were twins, spending a bunch of time together, strong in the force, both able to sense all kinds of things, but no alarm bells would go off as they kissed ...
Or that Ben Kenobi is a bit of a jerk when he tells Luke that Vader killed his dad and then his force ghost has to tell him that it was a bit of a lie and you think, come on he wanted to spare the kid's feelings, you're not going to tell him that his dad is now the Galaxy's most feared enforcer ...
And then Lucas comes along and he compounds his mistakes and makes them a million times worse.
Because everything goes wrong when an eccentric Jedi finds a kid that is the best in the Force ever because tough **** folks, the Force belongs to the genetic aristocracy, not the average peon, who may be surrounded by it, penetrated by it and be part of a big galaxy bound together, it's free WiFi everywhere, but no money to buy a smartphone ...
The expressly warn the Jedi that the kid is too old and too emotional and that he'll cause trouble down the line and when everything does go wrong, We find that Luke is just a pawn in Obi-Wan and Yoda's plan to beat the Sith by leaving one of the kids to be raised on a farm, delay his training even further than his dad's, lie to him while it's obvious he could be just as unstable as his dad while completely ignoring the other twin who becomes a major player in the rebellion.
Thank the Force for making a parent and both siblings of the Galaxy's most powerful Force User family entirely blind to each other's presence and ability to use it.
And people have the nerve to complain that the Force Awakens is bad for being essentially a soft reboot ? Look at it this way, can you name any other movie that was that successful and didn't get a remake after four decades ? If it had been any other studio movie, it would have been remade instead of the prequels.
Right, off to go watch Rogue One ...
astroboy
Master Member
I like what this guy in the video says and padme's death. That it's no coincidence that she died moments before Vader came to life. As if palpatine took her life through the force in order to save Anakin. After all, the first thing he told him when he came to was that he killed her
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Axlotl
Master Member
You should have been here when the prequels came out.
KrangPrime
Master Member
For one simple reason. there is far more meat in ATOC than there is in TFA's. and it's all NEW meat.
Add to that the real john williams score (not music by williams, and mostly done by some other bland hollywood guy)...great sound effects, and cool new planets and designs,
and something about ATOC comes off more rewatchable than TFA's.
We get Count Dooku, we get the Geonosians.. we get the Clones. We get Slave One Actually doing some fighting. We get the entire sepratist council.
What do we get in TFAs? We get a mary sue. We get a Yoda clone. we get old characters in the exact same spot or worse than when ep 6 ended...we get another retelling of episode 4. we basically get disney playing it safe. take away the nostalgia feel and there isn't much left that we haven't seen before..
I'm trying to do a little marathon before i see the new one. Even given it's Problems, The Phantom Menace is probably the fastest moving, best feeling, and better acted prequel movie. There are only a few slow spots (Any scene with Jar Jar...talking scenes where even the actors look bored..etc). but, the first hour or so, and the last hour or so is a real fun star wars movie.
Snikt
Sr Member
Exactly. Thats what happens when you dont have people to rein in George Lucas. If someone says "you can write this **** George, but you cant say it" then damn. Im telling you, George Lucas is like the little alien guy in a human body in Men in Black. He just doesnt get emotions, or people, or how people actually do things... The dude is socially inept.
Snikt
Sr Member
Ok NeilT, have you moved to Florida yet? Cause I can see the headlines now "florida man, high on meth, thinks the prequels are better than TFA" At least I would understand :lol Meat you say? Im sorry, isnt that the one that Anakin and Padme ride on the flea monsters, and he talks about sand? Cool new plants? The deserty planet with the rocks? That kinda looks like tatooine but more orange? The crappy CGI monsters? The part where R2D2 gets jets all of a sudden and flies around? The part where Yoda, a Jedi freaking master, busts out a tiny goofy little lightsaber, and fights Dooku(which is a stupid name) and any Star Wars fan worth his salt knows that true Jedi Masters dont use lightsabers. They manipulate the force directly when they battle another force user. Not only that but the effect looked like 2 grips were throwing green pillows back and forth with a light stick attached to them. Of course they played it safe, and people loved it. It bridged the gap and started up new fans, TFA wasnt meant for the old fans, it was meant for a generation of new fans, and even though that might be a bitter pill to swallow, it worked as a movie. I personally loved it, yeah, I had some beef with some parts but overall it was an awesome movie. Im a big proponent of practical effects and TFA had em in spades.
I cant even take what you say seriously anymore of you think The Phantom Menace has any redeeming qualities at all. The only cool part I remember, was when Qui Gon was trying to cut a whole in the door with his lightsaber, but even that was bittersweet when I saw that as a kid my inner comic book guy said "how the hell is that happening like that considering lightsabers dont give off heat?!" George Lucas, having full reign of Star Wars, doesnt know how to handle Star Wars, or how to direct a movie. Period. He proved that quite a few times.
KrangPrime
Master Member
First you praise practical effects, and then bash a practical effect? make up your mind ;o)
Also, would it not have looked even goofier is yoda had a light saber that was about 10 feet taller than he was? the hilt alone would take up half his body
Yeah,
the prequels have their problems. The Romance in TPM is creepy with anakin being so young. It gets worse as he gets older, as he obsesses for no reason and the two actors look like they want to punch each other and act like wooden practice boards.
But, for ATOC:
They should have started the first movie with anakin as a jedi and started the romance between him and padme there. then they get seperated cause the jedi arn't allowed attachments.
Start Episode 2 with anakin becoming resentful at that and clouding the rest of his judgment. they reconnect again, anakin gets increasingly violence and fearful that they'll rip him away again, padme refusing to see the deadly deeds he's doing to keep them together, and you'd have a more interesting twist on the romance angle.
but for the rest of it: Get rid of Hayden and get a real actor. improve the chemistry between padme and anakin like they did in the Clone Wars Animated series... As it stands now, it looks like two wooden planks trying to emote...ditch clone bobba...and i think you'd have a fine action movie for a more civilized age.
what weird world is this where i'm trying to be positive?
Axlotl
Master Member
Joss Whedon hasn't publicly said it, to my knowledge, but I'm convinced this is his response to GL and the prequels.
THIS is how you write a fall to the dark side. And it's only 42 minutes long, and took just 2 months to produce.
Watch this, then come back here and tell me that GL wrote a convincing relationship, and a convincing fall to the dark side.
THIS is how you write a fall to the dark side. And it's only 42 minutes long, and took just 2 months to produce.
Watch this, then come back here and tell me that GL wrote a convincing relationship, and a convincing fall to the dark side.
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crabra comander
Master Member
Dooku...the pawn that was obviously a pawn and then tried to act like he was a sith all of a sudden. Not a surprise at all for me.
What was so special about the Geonosians?
And what did Slave I do that was so special? It fought one Awing?( It had some cool blasters)We got the Falcon pulling off a mid air stall flipping over and blasting TIEs in TFA. How is that not cool? We got NO Xwings in the prequel. We got a small battle in TFA, good enough.
It doesn't matter how much meat something has if it's rancid. I think people can pick apart some TFA plot points but none can be as glaring as what has been mentioned for the prequels: high ground, Padme and Obi wan weird side relationship, no actual relationship between Obi and Ani.
I know my opinion won't sway your thought process but I really think that only a few elements of the prequel stood up to the scrutiny of even casual fans. That Yoda vs dooku scene was not what I had imagined, at all.
Even the Bad Lip Reading of this is amazing comparatively:
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U9t-slLl30E[/video]
What was so special about the Geonosians?
And what did Slave I do that was so special? It fought one Awing?( It had some cool blasters)We got the Falcon pulling off a mid air stall flipping over and blasting TIEs in TFA. How is that not cool? We got NO Xwings in the prequel. We got a small battle in TFA, good enough.
It doesn't matter how much meat something has if it's rancid. I think people can pick apart some TFA plot points but none can be as glaring as what has been mentioned for the prequels: high ground, Padme and Obi wan weird side relationship, no actual relationship between Obi and Ani.
I know my opinion won't sway your thought process but I really think that only a few elements of the prequel stood up to the scrutiny of even casual fans. That Yoda vs dooku scene was not what I had imagined, at all.
Even the Bad Lip Reading of this is amazing comparatively:
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U9t-slLl30E[/video]
drcraig13
Sr Member
See you take out Jar Jar I really didn't mind TPM. It was about world building and character building. AOTC just sucked. I really enjoyed 90% of ROTS (except dying of the broken heart. I have unfortunately started to take Star Wars now as maybe what most think of it. I popcorn movie. I watch it. I am entertained for a few hours and then I move on. Truth be told out side of ANH and Empire thats really what the last 4 movies have all been.
Jaitea
Master Member
JW composed & conducted the whole score minus the opening title.......the missing thing in the score was LSO
J
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KrangPrime
Master Member
I thought it was rather funny.... he expends all that energy in short bursts and then at the end can barely walk
And you have to admit, dooku is fun to say. you can really act it out
to me, TFA simply blazes no new ground.
I wanted to see Luke lead jedi. not be a hermit. we missed all the fun stuff..
Heck Yeh. Those convos were great! Didn't have an account then but I remember reading them.
Darth Lars
Master Member
I really liked the opening and the ending of ROTS.
The opening battle over Coruscant is awesome... until a few seconds in when Ewan McGregor breaks the fourth wall with the "Oh my god this is so cheesy"-look on his face when he delivers his first line. I'm not a fan of the buzzdroids either, or the designs of the fighters... but anyway.
The ending is very emotional. The music is the Funeral Theme with bars from the Imperial March, Leia's theme and Luke's theme blended in.
"It is too late for me my son, I must obey my master".
The opening battle over Coruscant is awesome... until a few seconds in when Ewan McGregor breaks the fourth wall with the "Oh my god this is so cheesy"-look on his face when he delivers his first line. I'm not a fan of the buzzdroids either, or the designs of the fighters... but anyway.
The ending is very emotional. The music is the Funeral Theme with bars from the Imperial March, Leia's theme and Luke's theme blended in.
In the Rule of Two - scheme, the Sith apprentice is always a pawn. They are lured for sure, promised great things but it is a kind of slavery .. probably meant to prevent them from killing their master too soon.
"It is too late for me my son, I must obey my master".
I've stated this a few times, but I feel it can never be said enough.
ROTS may not be the WORST of the prequels (Cuz TPM is just so crazy terrible) BUT it has the single biggest failure of any of the Star Wars movies and tells me that George Lucas was just calling it in...
That Failure is showing Darth Vader at the end of ROTS... it was such a money grab it blows my mind... and yet leaving him out could have at least SAVED the ending of that flick.
So here's why showing Vader ruined ROTS and the transition to ANH... and kind of, if you watch the whole thing in order, ruins the OT as well! (hyperbole!)
By showing Anakin becoming Vader, it ruins the reveal of who Vader was in Empire Strikes Back. It makes "No. I am your father" a pointless revelation.
HOWEVER, if they never showed him, here's how the story would look if you watched all the flicks in a row (if you're so inclined to torture yourself for 3 movies).
In the Phantom Menace we're introduced to two bad guys... Darth Sidious, and his apprentice DARTH MAUL. We know nothing of Maul cept he's a Sith... A "Darth" and a great character design. In the end, Maul kills Qui-Gon, and Obi kills Maul. Sidious/Palpatine is going to need a new apprentice.
Then we get to Attack of the Clones, and meet the NEW apprentice... I think... Not sure what he is, but either way, new bad guy in black, Count Dooku. We get another Mysterious past, but the guy survives to the next flick.
Then in ROTS we see Dooku killed pretty early on... So Palatine needs another apprentice. Also in this movie we get yet ANOTHER new bad guy. A coughing robot. But he still uses lightsabers, so here's your third bad guy enforcer, who is also killed... by Kenobi. 3 for 3 dead Palpatine apprentices.
So here's how Revenge of the Sith SHOULD HAVE ENDED.
Kenobi and Anakin fight. Anakin has his legs and arms cut off, and starts on fire, is burning to death. Ben yells the usual "WE WERE BROTHERS!" and Anakin screams back "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? ARE WE EVEN FRIENDS? WE HAVE ZERO CHEMISTRYYYYYY" and passes out. Face in the ground.
Ben looks at him, sadly, takes the lightsaber from the ground and walks away. We never see Anakin again in the movie. Just his burned, corpse looking body in the dirt.
Ben drops off Luke and Leia... movie ends.
Now we start ANH.... first thing that happens: a FOURTH bad guy is introduced. Another Darth. Now if you're looking at these in order, as a complete story, this is perfect. Just another bad dude, just like every other movie.
Then we meet Ben again for the first time in forever. We watch as he tells like this NEW Darth is the guy that killed his father. Ben looks like a lying A-hole, not owning up to killing Luke's dad, and placing the blame on a scape goat...
Then when Ben and Vader meet there's HINTS he's Anakin, but then if you're not looking for it to be Anakin, it's no different than that past Dooku had with Kenobi... They know each other, talk crap about each other, and fight.
And by the time we get to Empire, the "I am your father!" "Oh my gawwwwwwd Anakin didn't die!!" moment can happen.
But nooooo. All of this is ruined so they could put Vader in promotional crap for ROTS.
ROTS may not be the WORST of the prequels (Cuz TPM is just so crazy terrible) BUT it has the single biggest failure of any of the Star Wars movies and tells me that George Lucas was just calling it in...
That Failure is showing Darth Vader at the end of ROTS... it was such a money grab it blows my mind... and yet leaving him out could have at least SAVED the ending of that flick.
So here's why showing Vader ruined ROTS and the transition to ANH... and kind of, if you watch the whole thing in order, ruins the OT as well! (hyperbole!)
By showing Anakin becoming Vader, it ruins the reveal of who Vader was in Empire Strikes Back. It makes "No. I am your father" a pointless revelation.
HOWEVER, if they never showed him, here's how the story would look if you watched all the flicks in a row (if you're so inclined to torture yourself for 3 movies).
In the Phantom Menace we're introduced to two bad guys... Darth Sidious, and his apprentice DARTH MAUL. We know nothing of Maul cept he's a Sith... A "Darth" and a great character design. In the end, Maul kills Qui-Gon, and Obi kills Maul. Sidious/Palpatine is going to need a new apprentice.
Then we get to Attack of the Clones, and meet the NEW apprentice... I think... Not sure what he is, but either way, new bad guy in black, Count Dooku. We get another Mysterious past, but the guy survives to the next flick.
Then in ROTS we see Dooku killed pretty early on... So Palatine needs another apprentice. Also in this movie we get yet ANOTHER new bad guy. A coughing robot. But he still uses lightsabers, so here's your third bad guy enforcer, who is also killed... by Kenobi. 3 for 3 dead Palpatine apprentices.
So here's how Revenge of the Sith SHOULD HAVE ENDED.
Kenobi and Anakin fight. Anakin has his legs and arms cut off, and starts on fire, is burning to death. Ben yells the usual "WE WERE BROTHERS!" and Anakin screams back "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? ARE WE EVEN FRIENDS? WE HAVE ZERO CHEMISTRYYYYYY" and passes out. Face in the ground.
Ben looks at him, sadly, takes the lightsaber from the ground and walks away. We never see Anakin again in the movie. Just his burned, corpse looking body in the dirt.
Ben drops off Luke and Leia... movie ends.
Now we start ANH.... first thing that happens: a FOURTH bad guy is introduced. Another Darth. Now if you're looking at these in order, as a complete story, this is perfect. Just another bad dude, just like every other movie.
Then we meet Ben again for the first time in forever. We watch as he tells like this NEW Darth is the guy that killed his father. Ben looks like a lying A-hole, not owning up to killing Luke's dad, and placing the blame on a scape goat...
Then when Ben and Vader meet there's HINTS he's Anakin, but then if you're not looking for it to be Anakin, it's no different than that past Dooku had with Kenobi... They know each other, talk crap about each other, and fight.
And by the time we get to Empire, the "I am your father!" "Oh my gawwwwwwd Anakin didn't die!!" moment can happen.
But nooooo. All of this is ruined so they could put Vader in promotional crap for ROTS.
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