Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)

also it was not Rens mission to find the resistance base. he wants to find Skywalker. Fighting wars is Huxs job. Ren is obsessed with finding Skywalker because that is what Snoke wants him specifically to do. Finding the resistance base wont help him do that because they don't know where he is either.

Max VS character could very well be immune to Rens mind probing.
 
Kirstens right they are subjective observations. Unfortuntely given the way I think I have almost always two POVs . One that enjoys the film and one that unhappily deconstructs everything to see if it make sense (the later is mostly subconsious but its impossible to ignore,it just crystallizes like an "error" message.
So here are a few of the most pressing issues for me. Sorry about the length, the original was three times longer.Remember you did ask.

So Max VSs character had obviously gone looking around the galaxy to find the other part of the map,and its not clear where he found it. So it is annoying ,once he has it that he doesn't take it back to Leia, given he already knows her as "royalty"and is looking for looking for Luke, and about Kylo but he returns to Jakku?
This is where Kylo Ren is revealed as one of the most mentally challenged ex jedi ever.Stupid doesn't even cover it. Given that he spends most of the movie chasing, capturing and mind probing people who have had any contact with the map then why oh why does he kill the person who has actually found it and probably looked at the chart to verify the data (and Lukes location) immediately? And without apparently bothering to ask where or from whom he obtained it, who must also have known what information it carried.A bit of rash thing to do?
Which takes me to the greatest and idiotically missed opportunities in the TFA and why Snoke should sack Ren on the spot:
Given that he captures Poe and knows he has "the greatest single pilot in the Resistance " because Kylo tells him that ( and sure enough Poe shoots down ten Ties in ten seconds just to show us in case we missed it, but hardly gets one later in the finale battle ) why does Kylo Ren only ask him about the droid?
Why not mind probe him as to WHERE THE RESISTANCE BASE is!!!!! So Starkiller base can wipe it out immediately. If BB8 knows it then Poe must.He is their greatest pilot after all. I know because I can read his mind. But no. Lets ignore this glaringly important and critical fact. Just the droid with the map will do.
We are told by Hux that "The Republic is protected by the Resistance" in the group meeting with Snoke. So you would have thought its a bit of a priority to find their base first? In a rousing speech to hundreds of First Order soldiers (who then apparently cannot be found anywhere once Han Solo and co decided to enter the FO base) Hux says that "Today is they day we destroy the New Republic and their Fleet". So not the Resistance then? And you have the entire Republic fleet in the whole galaxy around one planet? Lucky FO!!!

Epic, EPIC fail!!!!!!

And the TFA IS filled with issues like this but really the worst for me being now that everybody knows where everyone is because they track them any where in the galaxy somehow!!!Don't believe me?

The most obvious example of this is Han finding the Falcon because he can track it? How? He couldn't find it when its flown and passed on to several other people from Du Kane to Unkar Platt over decades and yet Rey and Finn have been flying for about ten minutes and bang , we've found her Chewie ??????
And if it is a tracking device that can be so easily tracked (including by the terrible FO with a multi planet killing weapon) then why does Han then fly it directly to everyone he is hoping to keep safe from them? He actually says so. He SAYS IT!!!! To Rey !On the Falcon!!!
Why doesn't he and Chewie hop to nowhere special, kick Rey and Finn off and get them picked up by the Resistance? Thousands of systems to choose from .He could have radioed ahead as everybody else does as you hear at Mazs castle ( and this hugely annoys me ,that, thanks to JJ, now all communication throughout the entire SW galaxy is better and more instantaneous than everyones mobile phone reception here on Earth). Or ,even better, just stop and look for the tracking device? How can we have smugglers , or Resistance fighters or hidden bases in a galaxy where any single ship can be traced in moments by everyone apparently anywhere??
Don't believe me?

Leia actually sends a reconnaissance ship to Starkiller base ,though how she knew where to find it given that they had already moved onto a new sun is beyond me. Even Finn couldn't have known where it was if it was the case that one SK shot equals one drained sun.
Oh well it didn't matter. Because rather than that reconnaissance ship staying in orbit or flying somewhere else and radioing the information back they fly return directly back to Leia with it, leading the FO straight to the Resistance, which is kind of handy because they had already missed , like I have said before , several glowing opportunities.
How do I know this? Because Hux actually says "We've tracked the Resistance reconnaissance ship back to their hidden base." They tracked a single ship they didn't know was coming back to its place of origin. How? If its through hyperspace then the whole way the SW universe operates is in real trouble.
How do I know JJ is respouncible for this? Because the biggest single flaw introduced into " Star Trek: Into Darkness" (apart from the whole Khan thing) was the sudden ability of a starship to track and attack another in warp space.
And the TFA is unfortunately replete with contradictory and universe altering errors like that. I could go on and on but it would probably upset people even more than I suspect this post will.
I did enjoy the film very much the first two times I saw it ( apart from the rathras, but we won't go there), just read my old posts. Its saved by a great new cast and characters, it has brilliant visuals ,it felt very much like a very successful return to the SW univers of old and it had great, great energy.
But thats the been the main problem for me after watching it a couple of times on DVD ( I only saw it twice at the cinema). Once you stopped and get off that breathless ride and rush from action set piece to set piece and pause to think about how it all happened and recognise the underlying principles sacrificed to make everything in the film occur as it does, you'll realise its going to be very hard to fix in the next two films, which does bother me alot.
I don't hate the film, I still rate it highly ,but its dropped below Jedi now so its fourth in the series for me. I think Rey is great, I don't have any problems with her sudden abilities given what I've percieved in her backstory but I am fairly worried that so many ways in which the SW universe operated and worked well for me have been so radically changed .


Yes to all of that stuff.

Why is it that people keep saying that there is something broken in people who can't look past the flaws and just enjoy it?

This is a conversation about the movie. We're allowed to deconstruct it. Other than a couple of niggly bits, the OT did not fail deconstruction like this. Heck, I don't think the prequels failed deconstruction like this (I realize they weren't enjoyable. But I don't think they were filled with so many contrivances)

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also it was not Rens mission to find the resistance base. he wants to find Skywalker. Fighting wars is Huxs job. Ren is obsessed with finding Skywalker because that is what Snoke wants him specifically to do. Finding the resistance base wont help him do that because they don't know where he is either.

Max VS character could very well be immune to Rens mind probing.
Finding the resistance base shouldn't have been an issue.

It was about 7 feet away from the cluster of new republic planets.

Frankly, it was more surprising that it DIDNT get destroyed in that attack

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Han was using his scanners as he was freighting around the Galaxy. I'm pretty sure he has to be very close to know it's the falcon. He says it was picked up on his scanners when talking about getting a clean ship at Maz's. He also says to Chewie they should have checked the outer reaches or something,meaning they still have to search and be in its nearby vicinity to locate it. I don't think it was anything to do with a tracking device but more about the signature the ship gives off.

Ben

Which makes it even worse, as I say as you read in my post. Somehow it has been made possible for everyone to track ships by their signature? Hux does that to find the recon craft returning to the Resistance base. He says that in the film. And Han knows it he tells Rey it .I mention THAT in my post So why did he fly the Falcon to Maz? Why did he THEN fly it to the Resistance base having just seen the FO take out a whole solar system nearby? How near does he have to be to just happen to scan for the signature in a galaxy that has thousands of ships flying around it. I may have allowed for the one ( and I'm being generous here) "odd" coincidence but if the FO can track ship signitures and Kylo Ren bloody well knows his fathers ship, hell even Snoke tells him that the droid is on it with Han just before he says "kill Solo", why don't the FO attack the Resistance base the first time it arrives there, after they shift to the next sun. They know he's gone there and Kylo has Rey anyway.
 
Also we don't know who Max VS's character really is. Maybe Ren knew he couldn't mind probe him. Also Max's character prob didn't know where the Resistance base was to give it to Leia so contacted someone to send Poe or whoever out to get it.

So how does the FO track him to Jakku at the moment Poe arrives? MVS says he has been all over the galaxy looking for the info and sees the despair the FO are bringing to it. Whilst I am willing to believe he may have waited until he could get in contact with the Resistance I am less willing to believe the moment Poe turns up so does the FO to stop him. Its too much of a coincidence, particularly when you consider he already knows Leia as royalty and he knows Kylo is with the FO. The moment Poe is caught with that information its obvious hes with the Resistance yet nobody in the FO thinks to probe him about it, even though they've tracked them down to Jakku at that very moment?
I'm sorry Kirsten , Kylo Ren doesn't want to fight a war? Well Snoke does or else he would not have bothered with the FO .With one simple question NOT asked Kylo Ren missed the opportunity to wipe out the Resistance AND the CHANCE they could have found Luke before him, which is the whole point of the film. Snoke and the FO does NOT want Luke back to fight for them against the rise of the darkside.
And the problem with the MVS character, like a lot of what happens in TFA, is it just has to occur that way to set the action up for JJ. There is no immediately rational explanation for it until (hopefully) later. Even if he resisted the mind control a bit of Vaders good old fashioned physical torture would have made an old man break easily and loose control. Mostl mental strength breaks when the body is weakened.

They could have fixed a huge amount of most of my criticisms with just a little bit of careful thinking but that doesn't happen a lot in TFA. A lot is sacrificed just to move the pace of the plot along and bring together unlikely moments. Its still an enjoyable SW film far more than the prequels, but like I said , start to dig into the reasons why things are passed of as happening, then you come to realise they have fixed a lot of the old problems, but made a hell of a lot of unnecessary new ones. And that kind of carelessness really does annoy me particularly when they managed to get so much else dead right.
 
This is a conversation about the movie. We're allowed to deconstruct it. Other than a couple of niggly bits, the OT did not fail deconstruction like this. Heck, I don't think the prequels failed deconstruction like this (I realize they weren't enjoyable. But I don't think they were filled with so many contrivances)

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What we are trying to show you is that it isn't "failing" your "deconstruction". The objections raised above--and touted as "epic fails" are actually the result of someone trying to interject their own pre-supposed viewpoint into a part of the story which has not been fully revealed to us as yet, and then claiming it makes no sense. In other words, a Straw Man Argument.

Looking through the "objections" posted by CutThumb, they are largely either a result of not listening to the dialogue/failing to comprehend the characters displayed motivations (and then arguing based on those flawed perceptions) or by coming up with one's own idealized version of how things "should have went" and then announcing that TFA failed because it didn't follow that course.

We don't know why Ren chose to kill Max VS... perhaps we will be shown in the next film. Perhaps we won't. But to assume that because he did it for what--at this time--appear to be unclear reasons costitutes and "epic fail" on the part of the writing or direction is plain arrogant...and frankly more than a little short sighted.

As I'd pointed out earlier, Ren's given motivation was NOT to find the Resistance Base. His mission was to find the map to Skywalker. It was shown that Snoke has separate agendas for both Ren and Hux. perhaps Snoke feels that playing these two off each other will ultimately result in developing them both further. or perhaps he feels it's best to let each follow what drives them most strongly. Who knows. Again, we may find out...we may not. But to step into the middle of that void of exposition and jump up and down screaming that the absence of having every single pint spoon fed to you means the writing is flawed is assinine.

I did not feel that the humor was off, or lacking, or wooden or anything of the sort. I was engaged powerfully by the characters, i love them more each time that i see the film, and am continually amazed that they continue to engage me despite repeated viewings. THAT is good acting... and good directing...and good writing.. and good production.

I cannot say precisely why I (and many others, BTW) react to TFA this way, and you few do not. The only reason that I can come up with is that those of you who feel bitter about it have set your expectations a certain way, and since TFA did not read your minds and hit every note in kind, you feel dejected and disappointed.

I don't watch TFA through the lens of my "love for Lucas" or my "love for the Prequels" or any other such thing. i watch it through the lens of my love for Adventure in a Galaxy Far Far Away. And when things aren't clear, or motivations/decisions characters make aren't immediately and tediously explained to me, I don't close my mind off and put the film down as an "epic fail". Instead, I engage my imagination, and I imagine what the possible answers might be...i theorize and i ponder, and I wait anxiously for the next installment. But if in the next installment the answers don't turn out to be what i had imagined them to be, I don't immediately cry foul and blame J.J. Abrams for raping my childhood. I accept that my suppositions were off the mark.

That is the difference, I suppose, between those of us who still like it and those of you who do not. YES you are allowed to deconstruct it, if you wish. YES, you are allowed to talk about it. BUT... you are also expected to listen to those who don't share your viewpoint, and not to try to shout over them when they do disagree with you.

I'm not saying that i have a problem with you not liking TFA, or that I have a problem with you sharing those viewpoints. BUT, those of us who have different viewpoints will alos share those.. and we will defend our logic--as you also do. The difference here being that when those of you who dislike TFA don't agree with those of us who do, we don't yell and scream that we're being treated unfairly.
 
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Regarding Lor Santeka, we don't know why or how or when he came into possession of his part of the map but we can assume from the crawl he has reached out to the Resistance to come and collect it. He may have only recently acquired it or has had it a while and for reasons we are not yet privy to, has decided now is the time to put it in play. The First Order showing up at the same time could be coincidental or perhaps they intercepted his transmission to the Resistance. But it really doesn't matter. As per the VD he is a member of an organization called Church of the Force so there may be more at work behind his motivations then we know yet. Also the crawl established that both the Resistance and First Order are searching for Luke, so narratively we are provided what we need to know and are dropped into the story. It all seems very linear and clear to me. The why, when, and how's of the map really don't matter for the story
 
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Regarding Lor Santeka, we don't know why or how or when he came into possession of his part of the map but we can assume from the crawl he has reached out to the Resistance to come and collect it. He may have only recently acquired it or has had it a while and for reasons we are not yet privy to, has decided now is the time to put it in play. The First Order showing up at the same time could be coincidental or perhaps they intercepted his transmission to the Resistance. But it really doesn't matter. As per the VD he is a member of an organization called Church of the Force so there may be more at work behind his motivations then we know yet. Also the crawl established that both the Resistance and First Order are searching for Luke, so narratively we are provided what we need to know and are dropped into the story. It all seems very linear and clear to me. The why, when, and how's of the map really don't matter for the story

I think these questions will be answered in the Poe comics since it is following his search for the item.
 
narratively we are provided what we need to know and are dropped into the story. It all seems very linear and clear to me. The why, when, and how's of the map really don't matter for the story

I agree! And this also leads to what i've been saying; that the 'disappointments" often seem to come as a result of someone trying their best to answer these questions--or to imagine that they know what the only logical answer to them would be--and then being angry because there is no apparent answer.

As you've said, they have given us the need-to-know exposition, and dropped us into the story. THAT has always been the way with Star Wars films from the start. The crawl gives you the essential bits, and then it's time to watch the movie and see it all unfold.

Look, I don't mind at all that people want to look very closely and try to work out why this person did this, or why that character didn't do that...we ALL love to do that. But--as I'd said before--the difference is that i don't blame the movie, writers,actors,director, etc. when there are no apparent answers, or when i simply don't understand the *why*. I basically chalk it up to i don't understand, and that's all. I may come to understand as the story continues to unfold...and that is good enough for me.
 
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Also I don't think Snoke was initially planning on destroying the Republic at the start of the film, Hux convinces him now is the time when it became clear the Resistance was possibly going to find Luke, that forced his hand.
 

If the bonus features found on the release of The Force Awakens are any indication, this sadly looks to be the case. Lucasfilm pre-Disney was very open about discussing how problematic their films could be, but Disney seems to believe that the best way to present their films is to have nothing bad or problematic be said about anything. If this book had to be released, all that would be said is "We made a great movie with great characters played great actors and everyone working on the film was brilliant". Harrison Ford's on-set injury? What Harrison Ford on-set injury?!
 
And over here in Europe, there are no bonus features on the DVD edition at all. Only BluRay editions get them -- and only the standard set. Also, no digital download for anyone.
 
Also I don't think Snoke was initially planning on destroying the Republic at the start of the film, Hux convinces him now is the time when it became clear the Resistance was possibly going to find Luke, that forced his hand.

I agree. I just never cared for the mass cure all of destroy these planets and you win. Destroy this space station, we win. I was really hoping that the Starkiller base wasn't going to be a one off throw away base again. I was kind of hoping for a ESB ending where the bad guys were winning. Meaning, unlike in the past the base didn't get destroyed. Maybe just disabled long enough to escape the planet and then boom. The typical happy ending was never my style. Makes things too predictable.
 
I agree. I just never cared for the mass cure all of destroy these planets and you win. Destroy this space station, we win. I was really hoping that the Starkiller base wasn't going to be a one off throw away base again. I was kind of hoping for a ESB ending where the bad guys were winning. Meaning, unlike in the past the base didn't get destroyed. Maybe just disabled long enough to escape the planet and then boom. The typical happy ending was never my style. Makes things too predictable.

I think the First Order wanted to subjugate the Republic systems as opposed to destroying them and all their resources. If their desire is to bring the citizens of the Republic under the domain of the First Order, wiping them out sort of defeats the purpose. But clearly if the Republic had a Jedi on their side, Snoke feared for the First Order's viability so he strikes first.
 
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I think the First Order wanted to subjugate the Republic systems as opposed to destroying them and all their resources. If their desire is to bring the citizens of the Republic under the domain of the First Order, sipping them out sort of defeats the purpose. But clearly if the Republic had a Jedi on their side, Snoke feared for the First Order's viability so he strikes first.

Very well put and thought through. I understand the Starkiller base or death star being a fear tactic, I just never cared for the way they were used and the idea that if it's gone we win mentality. I would be much happier with something more realistic like the Malevolence in the clone wars. Still something to be feared, but a bit more "down to Earth".
 
One thing I find a little odd is a stormtrooper is shown speaking into his wrist, where there is presumably a comlink. So he speaks into a mic in his helmet, which is output through a speaker, which is then picked up by another mic. okay...
 

Loved Adam Driver on Girls before Kylo was a spark in anyone's head... So this was great.
 
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