Rian Johnson to write and direct a new trilogy of films.. (Star Wars Universe)

I'm looking forward to it. I loved TLJ. It had some flaws to it, but on the whole, I thought it was terrific, and I'm excited to see where Rian is going to take the series. I hope it isn't hidebound and doesn't try to recreate a past that is gone.
 
Yeah, I heartily agree. Obi-Wan in the prequel trilogy is unquestionably a hero who throws himself into conflict, albeit without the sense of reckless abandon that Anakin does. By A New Hope, he's "too old for this sort of thing" and generally content to keep himself out of trouble. He also lies to Luke or at least tells him things that are true "from a certain point of view." And even though he can manifest as a Force ghost, all he does is pop up occasionally and offer cryptic advice. That's a far cry from the swashbuckling hero he was in the PT, especially with respect to him lying to Luke. "OMG!!! They betrayed Obi-Wan! He would NEVER lie to Luke like that! WORST STAR WARS MOVIE EVER!!!!"
 
Yeah, I heartily agree. Obi-Wan in the prequel trilogy is unquestionably a hero who throws himself into conflict, albeit without the sense of reckless abandon that Anakin does. By A New Hope, he's "too old for this sort of thing" and generally content to keep himself out of trouble. He also lies to Luke or at least tells him things that are true "from a certain point of view." And even though he can manifest as a Force ghost, all he does is pop up occasionally and offer cryptic advice. That's a far cry from the swashbuckling hero he was in the PT, especially with respect to him lying to Luke. "OMG!!! They betrayed Obi-Wan! He would NEVER lie to Luke like that! WORST STAR WARS MOVIE EVER!!!!"

The Clone Wars cartoon also furthered that characterization of Obi-wan. At the end of ROTS he has relegated himself to living in exile watching over Luke for 20 years while the galaxy at large is under the oppression of the Empire. It certainly could be seen as a complete 180 degree turn for the character. Both he and Luke feel that their exile is for the greater good.
 
And that's what we get when movies are created out of order.

And 180 degree turn? Well, maybe, but at least it was result of reasonable circumstance. ALL (well nearly) the Jedi were wiped out, the chancellor turned out to be sith, and the galactic government upturned. And, he was guarding the offspring of Annakin. Not just hanging out, waiting to die.

Luke's 180 has nowhere near the depth of Obi-wan's, and makes less sense.

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And that's what we get when movies are created out of order.

And 180 degree turn? Well, maybe, but at least it was result of reasonable circumstance. ALL (well nearly) the Jedi were wiped out, the chancellor turned out to be sith, and the galactic government upturned. And, he was guarding the offspring of Annakin. Not just hanging out, waiting to die.

Luke's 180 has nowhere near the depth of Obi-wan's, and makes less sense.

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I would disagree with that, Luke is certainly doing a 180 by trying to end the Jedi Order by removing himself entirely from the Force because he is convinced after the rise of Kylo Ren its the correct and only choice. It’s a difficult, altruistic, and ultimately as Yoda pointed out, incorrect choice but one that must have been very difficult.
 
The Clone Wars cartoon also furthered that characterization of Obi-wan. At the end of ROTS he has relegated himself to living in exile watching over Luke for 20 years while the galaxy at large is under the oppression of the Empire. It certainly could be seen as a complete 180 degree turn for the character. Both he and Luke feel that their exile is for the greater good.

Yeah, definitely. TCW showcases him as a hero and general and really emphasizes what a badass he was. If not for Anakin's position in "the prophecy," you could see where he'd be viewed as the hero who would save the Republic, or at least one of them.

Imagining if the PT and TCW had preceded ANH by some 30 years, included a whole series of later-retconed novels and comic books and video games, etc., you can imagine Obi-Wan secretly training Luke from his youngest days to be the one who would restore the Jedi and destroy the Emperor......only to be crushed when "WTF?! He sat around doing nothing but WATCHING for 20 years?! And Luke is this whiny, unserious dweeb who talks like he's some rube farmboy who dreams of adventures? And why is Leia never trained?! They introduced this entire plot point about "Another" and we know exactly who it is, and then...they don't do anything with it! And then in the end Luke doesn't even kill the Emperor?! It's his freaking DAD who does? And that's supposed to, what, wipe the slate clean after MURDERING CHILDREN?!?!?! Also, it's completely unrealistic and breaks all laws of physics to have any spaceships escape the Death Star. Lando should be DEAD!! In the first movie, they make it clear that the surviving Rebels BARELY escape the destruction of the Death Star, and that's after Luke launches a torpedo down an exhaust port! In the final movie, they shoot the thing DIRECTLY, and have to race a stupid fireball out, and you expect me to believe that the Falcon's shields could withstand that?! WTF?! It's like they were TRYING to flush the whole franchise down the toilet with this trilogy!"

Look, there have always been things you can find fault with in this franchise. Some movies are worse than others about it. I think there's a lot to recommend TLJ, and I really, really enjoyed it. I'm looking forward to rewatching it. It's not a perfect film, and there are parts I don't like as much, but it's still pretty good.

The things I enjoy most about it, though, are:

1. It shoves JJ's mystery box bull**** out an airlock. Seriously, can we all just move on from that kind of hacky writing?

2. It completely flips the table and leaves us with some real questions about where things go. JJ could very easily do the predictable thing, of course, and tie it all up in a fairy tale bow a la how George did with ROTJ, but he doesn't have to if he wants to leave the future of the Star Wars galaxy more open to further stories about where we go after this trilogy. I could easily see that being the case, too, and it would...likely be pretty unsatisfying for a lot of people, although I'd enjoy it. Mostly because I find it to be thematically appropriate, in that the past no longer needs to dictate the future, and what we make of that future really is up to us.
 
The things I enjoy most about it, though, are:

1. It shoves JJ's mystery box bull**** out an airlock. Seriously, can we all just move on from that kind of hacky writing?

2. It completely flips the table and leaves us with some real questions about where things go. JJ could very easily do the predictable thing, of course, and tie it all up in a fairy tale bow a la how George did with ROTJ, but he doesn't have to if he wants to leave the future of the Star Wars galaxy more open to further stories about where we go after this trilogy. I could easily see that being the case, too, and it would...likely be pretty unsatisfying for a lot of people, although I'd enjoy it. Mostly because I find it to be thematically appropriate, in that the past no longer needs to dictate the future, and what we make of that future really is up to us.

Apart from subverting the predictable, what parts did you particularly like in the film?

J
 
I would disagree with that, Luke is certainly doing a 180 by trying to end the Jedi Order by removing himself entirely from the Force because he is convinced after the rise of Kylo Ren its the correct and only choice. It’s a difficult, altruistic, and ultimately as Yoda pointed out, incorrect choice but one that must have been very difficult.

The previous comments regarding obi-wan - show there is information presented to the viewer that lend his exile some.. legitimacy. His exile was less a 180 than a necessary change of plans, more or less.


Luke's decision to exile himself (indeed a 180 from the Luke we know), in contrast - does not coincide with what we know about his character up to that point - and the information presented to the viewer, is inadequate to explain his disposition (again - to me, and even YODA :) )

Dang, what was my point again? :D
 
The previous comments regarding obi-wan - show there is information presented to the viewer that lend his exile some.. legitimacy. His exile was less a 180 than a necessary change of plans, more or less.


Luke's decision to exile himself (indeed a 180 from the Luke we know), in contrast - does not coincide with what we know about his character up to that point - and the information presented to the viewer, is inadequate to explain his disposition (again - to me, and even YODA :) )

Dang, what was my point again? :D

For sure there was limited exposition to explain what happened to Luke post ROTJ in the film. Hearing Rian and Mark discusses it since the films release provides a lot of context, clearly they both had given it a lot of thought and debate, but what’s onscreen is a lot of short hand.
 
Apart from subverting the predictable, what parts did you particularly like in the film?

J

Well, let's see.

Visually, I enjoy the opening sequence with the mega-super-duper-ooper Star Destroyer and the bombing raid. I also enjoy that the costs of that raid are made clear to Poe as an effort to mature him, which is a process he undergoes throughout the film. I like where (I hope) they're going with him, going from brash, cocky pilot to seasoned campaigner. Taking him from a guy who thinks tactically to a guy who thinks operationally.

I LOVE Carrie Fisher's stuff. All of it. While I think it would've been neater/cleaner to off Leia during the film at the most obvious point (blown out into space), what came after that at each step was just gold, and I'm glad it survived on film. It's a fitting final film for her.

I LOVE Mark's work in this. Mark was, unfortunately, not a "marquee" face the way Harrison is. He didn't get the kind of roles that Harrison got. Now, he certainly doesn't seem bothered by that, and I can imagine that it allowed him to have a kind of life that let him continue pursuing his chosen path of acting and creativity in general, while also affording him much more of a family life, but I think this film cements that he likely had WAY more acting talent than he was given credit for. Whether you like the direction of Luke's story or not, you cannot deny that Mark knocked it the hell out of the park with his scenes. Put another way, Mark's performance itself completely sells and makes believable what the character is doing and feeling in the moment. It's grounded, it's emotionally very, very real, and it never comes across as "fake" or "just pretending" or whathaveyou. That's all separate from whether you think the character arc as written makes sense; the behavior of the character on the screen comes through as real the entire way, and it's a really nuanced, fully realized performance. I've thought Mark is way more talented than he's been given credit for for ages, but this film really brings that point home. The man can act.

I love the notion of the debate about our relationship with the past. Do we burn it all down to move forward? Or do we take care in setting some of it aside without forgetting the lessons of history? That conflict also plays out against the overarching threat of an older generation dictating the future in the form of Snoke, but it shows that merely defeating that threat does not mean all threats are defeated. Where do we go from here? What is the path forward? I think those are incredibly relevant questions for us at this time, and I love watching it play out within the film.

I love Rey's "origin" story for what it means for her character. Rey is nobody. Rey could be anybody. Therefore anybody could be a hero. Anybody can rise to the challenge if they take it up. It's not a question of destiny or birthright. Anyone can rise from nothing to make their universe a better place. That message is further reinforced with Rose's journey, and with Finn's. And with the Canto Bight stable boy. Everyone in this story is a nobody who has no business being a hero, but who rises -- or may rise -- to that challenge. Moreover, I love that the idea of turning to the heroes of the past to save us again is set aside. Rey goes to find Luke so he can save the Resistance and the galaxy, but Luke isn't up to it. So, who will save us? WE will save us. That's one of the key messages of the film: your heroes will not save you. You must save yourself and be your own hero. Again, I think that's incredibly powerful and meaningful at this point in time.

I really enjoyed the Rose character, in that, as I said, she rises from nothing and finds a match in Finn. I also like that Rose is not "movie pretty" like her sister was. Normally, you'd expect the casting to be flipped, with the "hero" character being "movie pretty" and their sacrificial sibling being...well, not "movie pretty." To be clear, I think she's attractive, but she's not what you'd expect in a big-budget Hollywood film.

I enjoyed Yoda's cameo a ton, especially his line about how "We are what they grow beyond." As a parent, that statement hit me right in the gut. It's at once bittersweet and hopeful. You want your kids to grow beyond you. You want them to have a better life than you had. But that also means that at a certain point, they have to leave you behind and go on without you, and there's some sadness in that. Not just in terms of facing your own mortality, but in terms of not being there to help them, to protect them. But as Yoda says, we are what they grow beyond.

I liked much of Luke's own analysis of the Force. I've liked the idea of a "Grey Jedi" for a while now, or at least a less doctrinaire view of the Force as being PURELY good or PURELY evil. I like the idea that Jedi vs. Sith is ultimately a conflict that must be left behind, and that a kind of balance must be struck.

I loved the hyperspace ramming sequence in terms of how visceral it was. How it was shot, how the sound dropped out, and just the "Oh ****" quality of it. The theater went dead silent when that happened. You could've heard a pin drop. It was great.

I liked some of the Canto Bight stuff, in the sense of providing us a wider view of the galaxy and the forces that influence it. The corruption, the double-dealing, the notion that the war profiteers don't care who they sell to, as long as someone's buying.

I loved the throne room duel and the visual flair of it. It felt genuinely tense, and I wasn't sure how it would play out.

I loved that Snoke was handily dispatched, and especially that the punk didn't see it coming. And I loved the emotion of the sequence that followed, for both actors. Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley totally sold that scene, really conveying how each is so desperate to have the other come along, and then the dawning realization that, no, they really do have to start fighting again...for now. We don't know what'll come after, though.

Lastly, I loved how open ended the film left things. By burning the playbook, the field is left wide open. I have NO IDEA what will happen in the next film, and I love that. I haven't been able to say that about a Star Wars film....well, ever! With the PT, I knew roughly where it was headed. The Jedi would fall, the Empire would rise, Anakin would become Darth Vader, Obi-Wan would go into hiding, yadda yadda yadda. With ROTJ, even at age 5, I knew what would happen basically. The bad guys would lose, and the good guys would win. I didn't know the exact details, of course, but I knew this. With Ep. IX, the sky's the limit. The story may not conclude, although I suspect it'll end on a happy note. Or at least a happier note. But will the First Order be destroyed utterly? Will it survive? Will we simply set the stage for its dismantling over future films? Will the Jedi rise? Will they be the same kind of Jedi as before? What will that all look like? Will Ben be redeemed? CAN he be redeemed? Will we see Luke again as a Force ghost? Will Rey follow a similar path, or will she remain present in the galaxy after all is said and done? What kind of leader will a more sober (in thought) Poe be? How will Leia's absence be explained? What will become of the stable hand, if anything? Where will things go from here? I don't know, and I'm eager to find out.

When I went into the new series of films, I was cautiously optimistic. Star Wars had a chance again to be something really amazing. It could still be pretty good by just aping the past, but we had an opportunity here to fully realize the potential scope of stories that can be told in this galaxy. It's an incredibly rich setting, and makes for a fantastic backdrop for all kinds of storytelling. But what I really hoped was that we would NOT simply rehash the old hits anew. I did NOT want to see yet another empire, yet another batch of Rebels, and yet another predictable lot of heroes who win the day through their plucky underdog tactics.

One of the most difficult things to do in storytelling is to tell a story that feels both new and familiar. "Make it like before, but make it fresh and interesting." It's an almost impossible task, but I think TLJ accomplishes that task nicely. If you're looking for the same old feel, then yeah, it's going to disappoint you mightily. But for me, I felt like TFA played it too safe, and felt too familiar. It was a nice way to hit the "reset" button, but it wasn't enough of what I wanted. Rogue One showed me that the franchise owners know they can do more with the franchise, and TLJ showed me that they're willing to thumb their nose at tradition, while still retaining the overall feel of the films. They're willing to take big risks with these films and tell stories that are VERY different, albeit in a familiar setting. I'm glad for that.

Lastly, I really enjoy the continued inclusiveness of the casting in these films. I know people like to **** on "PC culture" and whatnot, but representation on film matters, and it's not something easily understood when you haven't been on the sharp end of that stick. The new trilogy is part of a trend in filmmaking that expands films so that they are "for" a wider audience than they have been in the past. They're still "available" to all, but they are decidedly "for" a whole new range of people. In the past, I could "be" Luke, or Han, or Wedge, or Obi-Wan. I had a whole range of characters I could choose to "be" while watching the film. I could map myself into any number of different people. I can't really do that in the new films. There aren't a lot of characters into whom I can map myself. Luke and Han would be good candidates, buuuuut they're dead now. Poe is an option, but it's tougher for me to relate to him, and he's been more of a secondary character in recent films. He's somewhere between a Wedge and a Han, I guess. Finn? Nope. Rey? Nope. Rose? Nope. Can't map myself into any of them.

But you know who can? My wife. My little girl. The kids who live down the block from us. And they couldn't do that before, really. Certainly, they couldn't do it as easily as they can now. These films are much more "for" them than they are "for" me, even though they're absolutely still "available" to me. And that's great!! There'll be plenty of other films in the Star Wars franchise "for" me. And there already have been plenty. So I'm delighted that now I can share Star Wars even more with the people around me whom I love, and that Star Wars can be even better appreciated by an ever-widening audience.
 
Thanks, Bryancd! I think it's worth stating what's positive about the film now and then.

That and remaining hopeful about the future of the franchise. These are exciting times with a lot of potential for the franchise to go in all kinds of different directions. In a way, we haven't had this kind of an open playing field since the "dark times" of the late 80s/early 90s, when Star Wars was basically "done." It could all go sideways, I suppose, but I loved Rogue One and TLJ, and I liked most of TFA. Those new films suggest to me that, even with a few hitches along the way (Solo may not turn out that great, but we'll see), the franchise is evolving and expanding in all kinds of directions. And to me, the best part is "If you don't like the next movie, don't worry! Another will be on the way soon that you'll probably like more!" It's not just trilogy films followed by decades of nothing anymore!
 
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Good post @Solo4114, I always respect your position on things, i like your reasoning , but I guess our tastes are different on this one

I agree that Mark & Carrie performed fantastically in the film,...as did everyone else,...great job on the acting,.....& Rian directing them

John Williams score was terrific,....more stand out than TFA

What I didn't like was the defacing of what had been established in the previous episode,....the lack of cohesion bothers me, TFA really now is not worth watching

To me it was a very messy structure of a story much like Star Trek Into Darkness,.....Parts of the story could be totally by-passed & still reach the same conclusion

I agree that we are stepping into uncharted territory & whilst refreshing, I don't have the same hype I had when I walked out of TFA....I feel closure instead

J
 
I'll add my own slice of positivity to what's been offered:

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Star Wars fan. Major chapters of my adolescent life, for better or worse, were demarcated by the film's releases. I ate, slept, and breathed the saga's mythology. Dove headfirst into Campbell, quickly moving past Hero With A Thousand Faces into his more complex Masks of God series, which profoundly shaped my world view. I held STAR WARS ('77) as a paragon of cinematic perfection, with the other five episodes nestled equally beneath it. (A topic for another day, perhaps.)

I think that THE LAST JEDI is the best Star Wars film by a healthy margin.

I'm surely biased, but I think Rian Johnson is the smartest storyteller to ever touch the franchise. Lucas, Kasdan, Kershner, Huyck, Katz, and Brackett were all tremendous talents whose contributions are legendary ... but, to bring it back around, their riffs were necessarily contained to the influential confines of Hero With A Thousand Faces. Johnson pushed the series headfirst into the exponentially more complex Masks of God mythological territory, to borrow an appropriately Campbellian metaphor. He transcended the operatic entertainment I had pledged myself to for so long, and made a true work of art. One that resonates deeply with the subtextual truths I had managed to siphon from the series' unspoken depths and assemble some husk of a personal identity. He made literal text of what was once relegated to subtext, and bore deeper into the thematic potential of Lucas's inspired fantasy concept.

And you know what? Absent the tantrums and general childishness being paraded through certain corners of fandom ... I can absolutely understand why some fans can't swallow a pill this big. Not everyone wants their art to challenge them. I understand that Star Wars was an escape for some, and that this film is not so easily escaped into. I felt challenged the first time I walked out of the theater. I also felt like a better person for having taken that challenge, when I woke up the next morning. The living myth offered by THE LAST JEDI, as an active, actionable metaphor is one that I will carry with me for the rest of my days.

Not to get too far into the personal weeds ... but I've been to that island. I know the feeling of going to that place, within myself. Seeing the precise practice by which Luke is able to "leave", reconciling non-violence and pacifism, to rejoin the fight; it's exactly what I needed.

No piece of art works for every observer. I'm very thankful this one worked for me in a way that THE FORCE AWAKENS never did. (Another story for another day.) For those who weren't able to open themselves up to this experience, I hope the next one is for you. And, honestly, another every year after that. I'm so thankful this movie got made, it's enough to last me a lifetime. I look forward to continuing to peel back the interpretive layers of its complex thematic structure, like the petals of a flower blooming in my mind.

So, yeah ... I'm kinda looking forward to Rian's trilogy.
 
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Good post @Solo4114, I always respect your position on things, i like your reasoning , but I guess our tastes are different on this one

I agree that Mark & Carrie performed fantastically in the film,...as did everyone else,...great job on the acting,.....& Rian directing them

John Williams score was terrific,....more stand out than TFA

What I didn't like was the defacing of what had been established in the previous episode,....the lack of cohesion bothers me, TFA really now is not worth watching

To me it was a very messy structure of a story much like Star Trek Into Darkness,.....Parts of the story could be totally by-passed & still reach the same conclusion

I agree that we are stepping into uncharted territory & whilst refreshing, I don't have the same hype I had when I walked out of TFA....I feel closure instead

J

Thanks! As I said, I can understand how, if you were wanting something more familiar and "traditional" (for lack of a better word), I can see where this film would disappoint. It's familiar to me, but it takes some VERY different approaches with things. And as I said, it upends a lot of expectations, and frustrates some others (especially Rey's parentage and the "mystery" of that). This film is more...hmm...it's not "avant garde" really, but it's very willing to take a different tack and focus on entirely different things than previous films. Some of the stuff in it is not what I find particularly interesting (e.g., the space chase thing just felt kinda boring, and Crait itself was not as thrilling as I'd hoped although it had some cool sequences), and I do think they spent too long on Canto Bight, although I do like the ultimate messages that come from it. That sequence could've been shortened in favor of other stuff, like how the Rathtar sequence could've been shortened from TFA to make room for more exposition.

That said, I find my feelings post-film to be illustrative in comparing TFA with TLJ. When I left TFA, I felt...satisfied. It was a good start. Derivative, but with enough interesting things to make me want to see more. It's not an amazing film, but it was a good return to form. But what I really hoped for was that we would move beyond "form" and into new territory. When I left TLJ, I felt like we'd just stepped into new territory, and now were well into completely uncharted regions. There's potential for this next film to go damn near anywhere.

Kylo and Rey could make peace and coexist. Kylo could NEVER end up redeemed, and simply have to be defeated, perhaps by Rey tapping into dark side powers. Or perhaps Kylo would allow himself to be killed, thereby redeeming Ben and allowing the First Order's leader to fall, which in turn allows the Order itself to crumble for lack of leadership. We could see Kylo and Hux fight amongst themselves, destroying themselves from within as movements like the First Order often do. We could see the galaxy come together to beat back the threat of the First Order and utterly destroy it, but leaving a big vacuum and a question mark for what comes next. (Imagine a Star Wars universe WITHOUT an omnipresent threat of some huge enemy army! Where would the conflicts come from?)

The Jedi could reform as Grey Jedi. Or as a more balanced approach to the Light Side -- one that's more...flexible in how it relates to the Force. We could see a surge of Force users arise all over, or a deeper exploration of the Force itself.

We really just have no idea what comes next, because all of the familiar tools to which your average filmmaker would turn in this franchise have been swept away. Sure, you can have the Resistance suddenly find itself strengthened by new support from all over...but that would be a stretch without some kind of time jump. We're primed to expect a grand resolution, capping off the trilogy, and tying it up with a bow...but what if that doesn't happen? TFA already kind of did this in terms of sort of retconning what happened post-ROTJ, but what if Rey and the Resistance defeat the immediate threat of the First Order leadership, and then spend another trilogy or two trying to rebuild the galaxy? What if the story is allowed to play out over more than just three movies? There's no reason why we couldn't have Star Wars function as a sextology or nonology, where a single tale plays out completely over 6-9 films instead of just 3. What if the story moves beyond cherry-picking bits of history from the WWII era, and looks to something like the period after the fall of Rome or something? (Meaning, a "Gibbon-esque" fall of Rome, where everything has collapsed and we have a new Dark Ages in the galaxy, with the new Jedi serving as the light to guide the galaxy out of darkness, rather than the more nuanced modern understandings of the "fall" of the Roman Empire.)
 
I have strong feelings for and against TLJ. I want to like it more, but I can't accept the way it crapped all over so much of what had been set up in #7. TFA now feels like sort of a half-abandoned storyline.

Go back and watch the closing minutes of TFA now - it's wrecked. It feels like this big intense moment, with the lost lightsaber, the legendary lost Jedi master . . . maybe the most emotional moment in Rey's whole life . . . she is yearning for meaning & finding out who she might really be . . . and now the opening of TLJ basically has Luke saying: "Da Schwartz? Whatevah! I found that lightsaber in a crackerjack box!" How did this even get past the brainstorming stage? Between that, and the blue milk teats thing, it feels like somebody swapped the first reel of the movie for the SNL version.

I wish JJA would budget a few extra days in the Ep#9 schedule to go back and re-shoot a decent opening scene for #8. Quick, do it while Mark Hamill & Daisy Ridley still look the same. The overall plot itself doesn't even need to change, just the specific scripting of it. Just make it less of a stupid joke FFS. Show some respect for the audience's emotional investment in Rey & Luke's characters right then and there.


It is too obvious that they did this trilogy with no plan from one movie to the next which is inexcusable. Star Wars is not Fast & Furious. People expect some kind of multi-movie plot structure from SW.
 
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