Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

I'd agree with that, for sure... but I also think those choices would have been safe.

Why? There were plenty of interesting directions this movie could have gone without being safe. Kylo and Rey teaming up in the first place, that could have pushed the rest of the movies out of the Evil Empire vs Tiny Rebels cage. Or Rey turning dark and taking over the Knights of Ren and FO then Kylo getting caught in between the two factions. Or Finn's injury having some kind of effect on him, his character and the storyline (Oracle from Batman or Robocop, anyone?). Ren meeting his mother in person. Plenty of choices that could have been included without making it "safe".
Instead at the end status quo was established. They DID go safe.
 
Why? There were plenty of interesting directions this movie could have gone without being safe. Kylo and Rey teaming up in the first place, that could have pushed the rest of the movies out of the Evil Empire vs Tiny Rebels cage. Or Rey turning dark and taking over the Knights of Ren and FO then Kylo getting caught in between the two factions. Or Finn's injury having some kind of effect on him, his character and the storyline (Oracle from Batman or Robocop, anyone?). Ren meeting his mother in person. Plenty of choices that could have been included without making it "safe".
Instead at the end status quo was established. They DID go safe.
Spot on! All of those things I hoped to see in TLJ - especially Leia facing Ren - face to face with the person that truly created him. Yeah it was totally safe wrapped up in cheap sham subversions.
 
Why? There were plenty of interesting directions this movie could have gone without being safe. Kylo and Rey teaming up in the first place, that could have pushed the rest of the movies out of the Evil Empire vs Tiny Rebels cage. Or Rey turning dark and taking over the Knights of Ren and FO then Kylo getting caught in between the two factions. Or Finn's injury having some kind of effect on him, his character and the storyline (Oracle from Batman or Robocop, anyone?). Ren meeting his mother in person. Plenty of choices that could have been included without making it "safe".
Instead at the end status quo was established. They DID go safe.

You know what? Thinking about it, you're totally right.

I still don't think it's possible to make everyone happy, but they could have certainly made MORE people happy.
 
I hope JJ will at least have a time jump of 2-3 years. Otherwise we will have a trilogy that spans all of 130 hours in a galaxy far, far away. Why is the Story Group, KK, JJ and RJ so satisfied with pacing these core trilogy movies like a 13 episode Netflix show? It's like opening ROTJ on the Falcon with Lando and Chewie, covering their first day scouting Tatooine while Luke checks out the mess hall on the medical frigate.
 
I'd agree with that, for sure... but I also think those choices would have been safe. And safe doesn't always work for making a standout product.

At the bare minimum, a good chunk of fandom was already mad and out with the EU being made apocryphal.

What choices? I haven't actually specified any.
 
The choices that go with not pushing the envelope-- but I already retracted the thought and agree with you.
 
I'd agree with that, for sure... but I also think those choices would have been safe. And safe doesn't always work for making a standout product.

At the bare minimum, a good chunk of fandom was already mad and out with the EU being made apocryphal.

If they quit SW as a whole, over that, it's 100% on them and no one else. It was stated in the original press articles when the announced letting people write books that if sequels came out they weren't beholden to anything written. It was read at your own risk so to speak from day 1.
 
You know what? Thinking about it, you're totally right.

I still don't think it's possible to make everyone happy, but they could have certainly made MORE people happy.

Think Iron Man 1, the 1st Avengers, GOTG, etc. Those are just good movies, and are almost universally loved as presenting the characters in their true forms within a well-told and entertaining story. Those movies prove that you don't have to make subversive creative choices that completely break with Star Wars' established past to have a "fresh" Star Wars movie. It's actually MORE difficult to portray the OT characters as logical extensions of themselves from 30 years ago, and create the intrigue from a well-crafted story for these characters.

But instead of working hard to come up with a good story for the Luke, Leia, and Han we know, they chose to "defy fan expectations" by changing the characters, thinking this made them "bold." It didn't. "Jake" Skywalker just didn't make sense, and was so out of character from the Luke we knew that the majority of OT fans didn't recognize him.

There is no reason the ST films couldn't have been as widely loved as the films I quoted at the beginning. Lazy/non-nonsensical writing is the reason they are not.
 
Here’s a great little polemic on how/why this happens from the man I learned everything from:
http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp08.Impressive.Failure.html


And this quote from that article sums up my frustrations with the ST quite well:

(As an aside, what is it that draws people to classic properties, only to then get excited about screwing them up? Call it SES, the Starship Enterprise Syndrome. The thought process goes, "Cool! We get to make a film about the Starship Enterprise!" "Bitchin'!" "So, what should we do with it?" "Uh, I got it... let's blow it up!" No... how about instead you tell a great story, a classic story that does justice to the franchise?)

RJ asked himself what to do with the character of Luke, and decided, "Uh, I got it... let's blow him up! Make him an ornery old man that has withdrawn from the Force and spends his day spear fishing for food and squeezing sea giraffe teats for drink! Then kill him off after a 5-minute remotely projected redemption scene!"

How about instead RJ could have told a story that achieved justice for Luke's character as opposed to contemptuous subversion?
 
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I'll wait to read audience reviews for 9 before buying tickets.
And that's a sad thing for me to say Księgowa Kraków.
Hopefully 9 will "subvert my expectations," like everyone is throwing around now.
 
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Here’s a great little polemic on how/why this happens from the man I learned everything from:
http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp08.Impressive.Failure.html
This is a great little article, thanks for sharing it! Lots of good ins-and-outs of plot mechanisms and character motivations.


RJ asked himself what to do with the character of Luke, and decided, "Uh, I got it... let's blow him up! Make him an ornery old man that has withdrawn from the Force and spends his day spear fishing for food and squeezing sea giraffe teats for drink! Then kill him off after a 5-minute remotely projected redemption scene!"

How about instead RJ could have told a story that achieved justice for Luke's character as opposed to contemptuous subversion?

I'll be totally honest, I'm okay with the idea of Luke being a disillusioned bitter old man. Execution is the problem for me. And that probably stems from the quote from the article and that it wasn't an inspired story. If someone really wanted to tell the story of Luke being a bitter old person and how he gets his act together and finds the way back to the light I'm sure the outcome would have been much more credible. The thought process was probably more like "let's draft a list of what people would expect, do the opposite and try to fit something of a story around it".

Something of Ep 9 relevance, I wonder if they will try (intentionally or not) to top the runtime of TLJ. I wouldn't be too surprised if it was as long or even longer to get a proper wrapup to things.
 
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This is a great little article, thanks for sharing it! Lots of good ins-and-outs of plot mechanisms and character motivations.




I'll be totally honest, I'm okay with the idea of Luke being a disillusioned bitter old man. Execution is the problem for me. And that probably stems from the quote from the article and that it wasn't an inspired story. If someone really wanted to tell the story of Luke being a bitter old person and how he gets his act together and finds the way back to the light I'm sure the outcome would have been much more credible. The thought process was probably more like "let's draft a list of what people would expect, do the opposite and try to fit something of a story around it".

Something of Ep 9 relevance, I wonder if they will try (intentionally or not) to top the runtime of TLJ. I wouldn't be too surprised if it was as long or even longer to get a proper wrapup to things.

I almost think they have to make it as long or longer considering we only moved 12 or so hours forward in TLJ. Either that or have one hell of a time span go by and a very long opening crawl!
 
I hope they return Hux to the bad ass leader he was in TFA. Rian Johnson took a character who was not only a General but the commander of Starkiller Base, Snoke's true right hand man, military tactitian and the man who destroyed 4 or 5 planets and turned him into an inept moron. He should have succeeded Ren and became the Supreme Leader but instead we get crybaby Kylo who can't or won't even own up to the fact that he killed Snoke and blames in on Rey. What?

Ren did nothing in TFA that shows he's a leader or someone who would even inspire fear or loyalty in his men. He screwed up everything he was told to do in TFA. Fails to acquire BB8, can't get the info from Rey, get's bested by her again in a lightsaber fight, throws tantrums etc. If anything he's the inept moron.
 
I also hope they turn Hux back to where he was in 7. The conflict between Hux and Ren could have been really cool in 8. It was another dynamic that was established and just barely addressed in 8. I wanted to see Hux and Ren struggling for power and acceptance from Snoke. The way they handled that in 8 left me wanting more out of it. Hux is a tyrant. He is the bad guy that you feel nothing but contempt for. In 8 his arc went from tyrant to sniveling dog... What a waste.
 
I'll be totally honest, I'm okay with the idea of Luke being a disillusioned bitter old man. Execution is the problem for me. And that probably stems from the quote from the article and that it wasn't an inspired story. If someone really wanted to tell the story of Luke being a bitter old person and how he gets his act together and finds the way back to the light I'm sure the outcome would have been much more credible. The thought process was probably more like "let's draft a list of what people would expect, do the opposite and try to fit something of a story around it".

This is where I am. I am ultimately okay with what was done with Luke-- but I fully agree there could have been better about it.

Just spitballing...

But say in TFA, right after leaving Jakku, the Falcon goes into autopilot. Dirch the 20 minute Rathar scene. Go directly to Maz's place, where Han is waiting, having been alerted his ship was finally activated after a decade. Get all the Han and Maz stuff done at the same time.

After Kylo takes Rey, instead of going to Leia, Han takes Finn to Luke. Luke can be the same bitter disillusioned dude he is in TLJ, blaming himself for what happened to Kylo Ben. He begrudgingly joins them as they then go to Leia-- and pick up with things as they are-- only with Luke grumbling in the background, and not going on the rescue mission.

After the battle turns poor for Poe, Luke hops in an X-Wing and goes to help, after Leia tells him he's being an ass. During the battle, he senses Kylo Ren, and lands. Then we get the end that Mark Hamill pitched-- that Luke shows up to save Han, but is too late. He does something heroic, lake maybe he takes out the base, so Rey can still face off against Kylo on her own.

You could then start TLJ in more or less the same place. Luke can still be apprehensive, but he doesn't need to spend 2/3 of the movie denying he can help. Maybe just the first act.
 
Star Wars has become 2 incompetent armies killing each other. Hux is an idiot. Was Hux ever competent? Lost a planet killer and a dreadnaught AND a flagship. Hux ain't dead yet? Was Snoke his dad? Fickle Kylo is in charge and has no problem with beating Hux. What five-year-old wrote this?

Arms makers are getting rich. No more epic good vs evil.

Low self-esteem asian girl falls in love with a guy who had his bags packed and was ready to bail eighteen hours ago, yadda yadda...

Maybe we can have a 19 hour chase in the next movie, because the 18 hour chase wasn't enough. or...OR an 11 PARSEC Chase!?

********CONCLUSION*******************

If people are done with Star Wars, it isn't their fault, it is on the people who took a dump on the franchise.

Here is a parallel example: Gee, this restaurant was really good 30 years ago, but the last 2 times I ate there, I got sick. A minority of the people who went there with me are also in the ICU, having been poisoned by the very same restaurant, but they told me I should give the restaurant another try.

If episode IX is another dare, pushing to see how bad of a film the audience can tolerate, the real question should be, "how much bad film-making will people who really-want-to-love-anything Star Wars tolerate?"

Unless Yoda sings...then all is forgiven...
 
Here is a parallel example: Gee, this restaurant was really good 30 years ago, but the last 2 times I ate there, I got sick. A minority of the people who went there with me are also in the ICU, having been poisoned by the very same restaurant, but they told me I should give the restaurant another try.
.

Man-- I know this restaurant makes me sick, but I'm going to keep eating at it and posting yelp reviews about how much I hate it cause it used to be good. ;)
 
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