MooCriket
Master Member
Leia Poppins and that extra half-hour excursion to CasinoPlanet was just stellar writing Rian. :sick
Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)
- Thread starter Bryancd
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Leia Poppins and that extra half-hour excursion to CasinoPlanet was just stellar writing Rian. :sick
I'm saving that tweet, lol.
It's strange, you watch the deleted scenes and Canto Bight was a full 6 minutes longer that they actually shot and did partial CGI on. Where the hell was KK when all this money was being spent?
I'm not going to repeat in detail all of my criticisms of Episode 8. I've done it enough and they are almost all here on the forums in other posts.
To clarify my statements:
-The Hero's Journey is half of what has made Star Wars relevant 40 years on. Without it the Saga films don't work.
-The Saga films are about the Skywalkers. Period. That was Lucas's original intent and when Disney acquired the company they stated explicitly that the Saga films would be centered on the Skywalker family and conclude their story. I remember reading that over and over again when the sale was announced. Plus it makes sense that if they are numbered that way, they would include the family in the story in some capacity. My expectatioon was based on what Disney announced. Not on some vague idea I had in my head.
-Will the new Saga films be all wrapped up in a neat bow? Not likely given what we got but I doubt very much that they would risk having a sad ending in 9. What a bummer that would be! I had expectations for the direction the story would take based on what I saw in episodes 1-7 so when 8 unraveled them, I was pretty angry. My expectations weren't some idea in my head but based on ideas established in the other movies. Some of that blame lays with J.J. Abrams, some of it with Kathleen Kennedy and some of it with Rian Johnson. They should have mapped out the broad strokes of the story before they started anything else.
-The spin offs and anthology films were going to explore new characters, new planets and new types of story telling. This way they could establish new ways of telling a Star Wars story without having to rely on the standard tropes they used before and I'm fine with that. In fact that is necessary to keeping the franchise fresh and new.
-The fact that Disney had to point out these extreme fringe groups as the reason why The Last Jedi wasn't as well received as other films in the series was a cheap tactic to silence fans who had valid criticisms about the movie. Rather than openly address the criticisms they chose to focus on laying the blame with racists or sexists as the problem. Other studios and directors/ producers pulled the same stunt with the Ghostbusters reboot (although they were worse with that movie) as a means to justify their terrible creative decisions, and yes, I saw the Ghostbusters reboot. It wasn't awful because the cast was female, in fact I thought it was extremely well cast, it was the script and the directing that were the problem. It simply wasn't funny. Same with The Last Jedi. It was just a bad movie and it was downright depressing.
-Disney will do whatever they want and they don't care what I or anyone else on this forum thinks of their movies. I'm not delusional enough to honestly think otherwise.
-Again I don't begrudge anyone for liking Star Wars 8. I just strongly disagree with you. I don't understand why you would like it, but ultimately just as I am free to have my own opinion on it, you too are free to have yours. My rants are my way of dealing with my frustration with the movie and not meant as personal attacks on any fans who felt differently.
To clarify my statements:
-The Hero's Journey is half of what has made Star Wars relevant 40 years on. Without it the Saga films don't work.
-The Saga films are about the Skywalkers. Period. That was Lucas's original intent and when Disney acquired the company they stated explicitly that the Saga films would be centered on the Skywalker family and conclude their story. I remember reading that over and over again when the sale was announced. Plus it makes sense that if they are numbered that way, they would include the family in the story in some capacity. My expectatioon was based on what Disney announced. Not on some vague idea I had in my head.
-Will the new Saga films be all wrapped up in a neat bow? Not likely given what we got but I doubt very much that they would risk having a sad ending in 9. What a bummer that would be! I had expectations for the direction the story would take based on what I saw in episodes 1-7 so when 8 unraveled them, I was pretty angry. My expectations weren't some idea in my head but based on ideas established in the other movies. Some of that blame lays with J.J. Abrams, some of it with Kathleen Kennedy and some of it with Rian Johnson. They should have mapped out the broad strokes of the story before they started anything else.
-The spin offs and anthology films were going to explore new characters, new planets and new types of story telling. This way they could establish new ways of telling a Star Wars story without having to rely on the standard tropes they used before and I'm fine with that. In fact that is necessary to keeping the franchise fresh and new.
-The fact that Disney had to point out these extreme fringe groups as the reason why The Last Jedi wasn't as well received as other films in the series was a cheap tactic to silence fans who had valid criticisms about the movie. Rather than openly address the criticisms they chose to focus on laying the blame with racists or sexists as the problem. Other studios and directors/ producers pulled the same stunt with the Ghostbusters reboot (although they were worse with that movie) as a means to justify their terrible creative decisions, and yes, I saw the Ghostbusters reboot. It wasn't awful because the cast was female, in fact I thought it was extremely well cast, it was the script and the directing that were the problem. It simply wasn't funny. Same with The Last Jedi. It was just a bad movie and it was downright depressing.
-Disney will do whatever they want and they don't care what I or anyone else on this forum thinks of their movies. I'm not delusional enough to honestly think otherwise.
-Again I don't begrudge anyone for liking Star Wars 8. I just strongly disagree with you. I don't understand why you would like it, but ultimately just as I am free to have my own opinion on it, you too are free to have yours. My rants are my way of dealing with my frustration with the movie and not meant as personal attacks on any fans who felt differently.
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This guy raises some good points about the series as a whole and specifically it's longevity vs. fan expectations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lgqNI36usE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lgqNI36usE
sztriki
Sr Member
Star Wars is a fairy tale at heart and I might be naive here, but those usually end with "happily ever after". Also, the main point of the sequel trilogy is to be a trilogy. The fact that Nightmare on Elm street 3 didn't end with a bow and final conclusion is not an issue because it wasn't a trilogy that was supposed to be a three-piece act. It was just the third sequel and it wasn't as connected as SW movies were.
So what are our options if it's not a pretty bow and good's triumph over evil?
A Mass Effect-style ending? If you think the negativity towards TLJ is because fans are disappointed that they didn't get their fan-service then wait for the reaction to an ending of that sort.
Or just open-ended? The battle keeps raging on with our Saturday morning cartoon show? How is that a conclusion to a trilogy? And I emphasise that this should be a conclusion because it's planned to be a three-act work from the start. Had they said we're just going to carry a story it would make more sense, but they straight away said it'll be a new trilogy.
I wouldn't mind a kind of bittersweet ending, ROTJ was supposed to end with a tired Luke "walking into the sunset alone" like a spaghetti western hero instead of the ewok disco and I don't think that would've been too bad, even for a fairy tale. Nevertheless it would have been a conclusion too, so Ep 9 does need to be conclusive in a way. Daisy already said she doesn't want to do any more SW films after Ep9, so it kinda needs to end somehow I guess...?
I honestly don't think that's the main issue. I said it many times, the bits I love the most about TFA is everything up until Han Solo shows up plus the confrontation between Rey and Kylo in the end.
Again, I know I'm just one guy, but I said it many times I really don't mind that Rey is nobody, in fact I really really like that idea. Not too fussed about Snoke either. The main issue is that TLJ hardly offers anything else. Take those away and you have the slow space-chase, the casinoplanet (both of which you yourself have issues with), Luke sulking and a final stand and resolution which left many of us wondering regarding motivations and consequences and a movie that doesn't seem to find balance in tone.
I'm pretty sure most people would have no problem with how Rian played those mysteries off if the rest of the movie was more streamlined, focused and gave something genuinely interesting, and most of all well executed.
With regards to your dislike of the mystery box approach, I understand and I agree that it usually leads to more disappointment when it's not played off well. But here's a parallel and I'm gonna be stuck in the world of cooking again. I watch Masterchef Australia, it's an elimination-based cooking show. Every Monday the challenge is (guess what) a mystery box challenge. Contestants get a box full of random ingredients plus they can use a set of staples (sugar, eggs, milk, flour, cream, vinegar) and using at least one ingredient from the mystery box have to cook a dish. And guess who's the winner? The one who can cook the best dish from a set of ingredients that they didn't know about and were not collated based on any specific concept. Not the one who makes an omelette from the staples and puts the thyme leaves on top from the box. On top of that, JJ did have outlines for the story that Rian decided to bin and come up with his own (contradictory to his earlier tweet though). As Mark said in the BTS docu "if it turns out to be great it's only because of him (Rian). But if it's terrible then it's also his fault".
Again, I'm okay with the decision but there is a difference between character-driven writing and saying that the character wrote the story as an excuse. At the end of the day it's Rian who decided what the character finds important and I think he got it backwards. He first put down the pointer to say this is how I want this character then tried to find a way to tweak the character's mindset to get to his desired point. This is apparent for me when it comes to Luke and his motivations. They are just illogical and all over the place. Rian wanted Luke to be tragic and bitter and tried to reverse engineer how he became that instead of coming up with a plotline that goes from A to B to C based on what we know about them. This is apparent in many places when the movie repeatedly contradicts itself.
Here's another example of character driven writing: Ren offers a place by his side for Rey. What would Rey choose? Considering that she really is a nobody, just been let down badly by a grumpy old guy who was supposed to be a legend and the only person she really had some emotional depth with is Kylo and they just saved each other's asses she may as well do it. She might even have enjoyed the taste of power and success during the fight. Character driven? Yes, because it takes the character's emotions and motivations into consideration. Rian didn't go with it because HE did not want to go with it. It's HIS decision what Rey's decision is. It's HIS decision what's important for Rey. And it's also HIS job to make it clear for everyone in the movie why characters make their choices. Not in the novelization or a Q&A or in an interview.
I agree with this 1000% (except that I never really cared for the EU). The problem is that this franchise though seems like it's set in a vast galaxy with endless opportunities is simply just limited, because it's a simple fairy tale that you can only tell so many ways and if you try to break the mold a lot it will not work as a Star Wars movie. There's just not much more there and I think this is where my cynicism towards the series comes from and this is why some loudly declare Star Wars to be dead. They realized this too, most of us swallowed TFA as a reboot and wanted to see what happens with TLJ and just realized that you're either stuck in the same old same old or if you try something new (tonally for example) it won't work. As Jay said in Half in the Bag, it's like trying to squeeze a cinematic universe out of Back to the Future. It's three solid fantasy movies and that's it.
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Solo4114
Master Member
It's been a few years, but I do have friends and some family up there that I visit now and then!
laszlo
Sr Member
That is so perfectly put!
I agree!!!
One of my problems with this is, and many of you have mentioned it, this is a sequel trilogy, and this trilogy IS about the Skywalker timeline. I am OK with another trilogy moving away from the Skywalker's, just not this one. With the information we are presented with now, this will end without a "living" Skywalker. Yes we have a descendant in Ben Solo/Kylo, but not in namesake. I really hate the thought of the surname not existing in galaxy from this linage.
On the "NEW" Trilogy side, keep in mind, we don't know what exists beyond and apart from the Skywalker Trilogy. What we have all come to know and love is based on the Rebellion, Resistance, Empire, Republic, Jedi, Sith, lightsabers, exotic blasters, etc......
If you remove or get too far away from this "known" Galaxy Far Far Away...... what we are we left with, honestly? It may feel more like Star Trek, Battle-Star Gallactica, and every other spaced themed Sci-Fi. These are all good in their own right (granted I am not a dedicated Star Trek or really any other space sci-fi film fan). I like SW because of the differences it has to all the others, the existing themes and hoki religions, and lightsabers!!!. I like that it draws me back for two - three hours per film to a much simpler time and makes me feel like a kid again, I can get totally immersed in it.
Is it as great of a space fantasy or even SW without those elements? I don't think so in my humble opinion.
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Moving away from the mythology in favor of a simple SciFi story line will always attract a new fan thus creating a new base but it will alienate the older base. The Last Jedi, IMO, proved they DEF want to move in that direction. I hope I'm horribly horribly wrong!
cheers
cboath
Master Member
Other than it doesn't.
There might be a lot more in 20 years, but at the current pace, they won't be grossing what 7 and 8 did, not even close. As has been said before, the giant BO's of these two are largely from die hards whom they are either losing or at risk of losing right now. Some haven't given up yet and may even like it. That's fine, nothing wrong with it. Nothing says those people won't get disappointed in 9, 10, or 11 etc. You'd think a group like LFL and Disney would taken note when they **** of a sizable chunk of existing fanbase which is a large part of why they bought the franchise in the first place.
If the brand weren't iconic and didn't have the largest group of fans out there that spend hand over fist on it, they wouldn't have been interested in buying it. They bought it to turn a profit - which, they've already done more or less. But as all giant corporations go, they want to see that money line keep ticking upward - or at the worst hold steady. The current direction DOES NOT guarantee either. As people have pointed out...the new trek started off strong and petered out to the point they're undecided on a 4th. Thinking that can't happen with star wars is hubris or foolish or stupid or any combination thereof.
cboath
Master Member
Exactly. George scored a profit on the prequels before shooting a single shot with the billion dollar licensing deal. That's 100% from the existing/older fan base. Do you really want to alienate that group? Millenials have proven one thing - they dont' stay interested in anything for long. Just like 'ole george - they rake in more in licensing as well. FFS, they had car companies paying to use the music, never referencing SW in the commercial except tag a 'see the movie in theaters Dec 16th' or whatever. And you KNOW the price wasn't cheap for the music. Lipstick? New fans aren't going to be as ardent and buy stuff just because it has SW on it.
I was in Toys R Us today and boy was it sad looking at all the brand new Star Wars toys lining the shelves. All kinds of fancy gadgetry and super articulated figures with 3D scanned face sculpts.
I wonder how much of a market the Star Wars brand has anymore with the kids. I know at one point it was still the best selling brand in boys toys but I wonder if they've been dethroned. It also begs the question of how much saturation of the movies has affected interest with kids wanting to buy the toys and all the merchandise.
I wonder how much of a market the Star Wars brand has anymore with the kids. I know at one point it was still the best selling brand in boys toys but I wonder if they've been dethroned. It also begs the question of how much saturation of the movies has affected interest with kids wanting to buy the toys and all the merchandise.
It is second to LEGO worldwide.
clancampbell
Sr Member
I actually really liked TLJ, but the one thing that i just don't get is....
Why, if he has renounced the Force..and denounced the Jedi, is Luke standing on that hill wearing his Jedi regalia???
He's still wearing it at the begining of TLJ, then we never see it again.......
What reason does Rian Johnson have to explain why Luke is in Jedi robes????
Rich
Why, if he has renounced the Force..and denounced the Jedi, is Luke standing on that hill wearing his Jedi regalia???
He's still wearing it at the begining of TLJ, then we never see it again.......
What reason does Rian Johnson have to explain why Luke is in Jedi robes????
Rich
sztriki
Sr Member
Apparently he was just about to go and burn the Jedi books. Beats me why he needs the Jedi tux to do that, especially if he denied the Jedi.
Mr Webber
Master Member
You know things are bad when the CEO of Hasbro has to make a public statement.
http://fortune.com/2018/03/28/hasbro-ceo-star-wars-toys/
The most telling line from the article... But Hasbro says good storytelling — like Marvel’s “Black Panther” — still can draw huge audiences.
Mr Webber
Master Member
And base himself at the most sacred and obvious of Jedi locations.
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